Should luring be against the rules?

[Shin]

PvP lures shouldn't even be in this discussion... It is part of the game and players know the risk when they go into wilderness. However other type of lures that don't include PvP are up for discussion.

Have you read through this thread?

It is in regards to luring members of Sythe.org.

 

[Goldenstate]

Yes, it's immoral and deceiving. It's only slightly better than scamming.

 

[SuF]

Now here's a question for those supporting luring to be allowed on sythe. Lets say Dave is doubling money in game and he does a few "legitimate" doubles and proceeds to take one of the larger ones. Would he be scamming or would he be luring? He gained their trust then betrayed it which seems a lot like luring doesn't it? We've banned atleast one person for the doubling money scam thus I think we need to make the line clear on what is okay and what is not.

I've got no idea what you mean.

 

[Shin]

I've got no idea what you mean.

tl;dr
Was the user beguiled or swindled?

 

Luring, especially wilderness lures are a part of the PvP element. How would we even define what types of lures are acceptable? I.e, someone is at East Dragons, they are skulled (luring for their team in Multi), said skulled person finds someone Pking in the single area with their friends, he lures them all out to multi, for his team to kill. This is PvP, this is also luring. So we would ban users for doing what the wilderness is for?

IIRC, "luring" someone who is already in the wilderness is not against the rules. If that is true, it makes sense since outmaneuvering your opponent is part of the PVP experience. However, before anyone can turn that statement around on me, a person already in the wilderness went their willingly, but someone who was lured into the wilderness or other dangerous combat zones did not, and did so under false pretenses. A violation of trust.

Luring and scamming involve similar concepts, maybe even the same, but they do not equate to each other. Scamming involves a trade happening, and items/whatever being given to another user in return for monetary/whatever compensation; when compensation isn't provided, that is a scam. How is this even relative to luring? Luring doesn't promise any compensation, it's not a sale, it's not a trade.

Scamming is not limited to trades. It is defined as using deception to deprive someone of money or possessions. If I'm not mistaken, most, if not all, lures involve gaining the trust of another user, which is then manipulated into depriving said user of money or possessions. Most, if not all, lures involve something in return for heading into dangerous combat zones. "Hey, follow me, I found a way to double your money." How does luring not promise any form compensation? Shouldn't it be classified as a scam if they didn't receive whatever they were promised?

 

Luring Shouldn't be a bannable offense on sythe, this suggestion has been denied many times, and it makes no sense. Jagex themselves doesn't ban lurers for luring, they've said it on their streams/medias. Most lurers get banned for rwt which leads people to believe its a bannable offence. The only pretense on which luring should be banned on sythe is if a user is using sythe for scouting/finding victims. Otherwise it is completely fine with me.

 

I'm going to grab a snippet from my old thread.

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Luring

“Luring is a term most often used to describe a player tricking or deceiving another player by leading them to a dangerous place, most likely in the Wilderness. Since 28 March 2007, it has been considered scamming.”

Extra proof action is taken against lurers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t9BBWaJ_Jo

Hi mom

 

[funbox]

Noticing the posts throughout this thread alot of people think that this thread is to make luring anyone a bannable offence, when it's only aimed to luring other sythe members.

I'd suggest changing the thread title to "Should luring other Sythe members be a bannable offence"

 

[Shin]

Noticing the posts throughout this thread alot of people think that this thread is to make luring anyone a bannable offence, when it's only aimed to luring other sythe members.

I'd suggest changing the thread title to "Should luring other Sythe members be a bannable offence"

Posted a response to Dave earlier regarding this.

I don't have the power to edit titles or polls in this section.

 

[Busta305]

Have you read through this thread?

It is in regards to luring members of Sythe.org.

If it's in the wilderness it doesn't matter if they from Sythe or not, even the game warns you when you cross the wilderness. In my opinion is part of the game, you shouldn't go into PvP area with items you're not willing to lose.

Also if you want to classify luring as scamming then why should it be for Sythe members only since we ban scammers who scam off site also.

 

[BF4 Booster]

IIRC, "luring" someone who is already in the wilderness is not against the rules. If that is true, it makes sense since outmaneuvering your opponent is part of the PVP experience. However, before anyone can turn that statement around on me, a person already in the wilderness went their willingly, but someone who was lured into the wilderness or other dangerous combat zones did not, and did so under false pretenses. A violation of trust.



Scamming is not limited to trades. It is defined as using deception to deprive someone of money or possessions. If I'm not mistaken, most, if not all, lures involve gaining the trust of another user, which is then manipulated into depriving said user of money or possessions. Most, if not all, lures involve something in return for heading into dangerous combat zones. "Hey, follow me, I found a way to double your money." How does luring not promise any form compensation? Shouldn't it be classified as a scam if they didn't receive whatever they were promised?

I agree 100% with that ^^



It should be bannable.

DO we allow the sales of stolen gold? NO.


Luring is essentially scamming people out of their hard earned money (in-game) in order to profit.

Many people say "oh well it's there fault for getting lured"


Luring is essentially taking the gold/items that another player earned without giving them anything of equal or relatively equal value in return. The person losing their money did not consent to give away their goods for free.

ALSO don't say by playing they consented to having their gold stolen, that's like trying to argue a female can legally consent if she is plastered.

 

I'm going to grab a snippet from my old thread.

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Luring

“Luring is a term most often used to describe a player tricking or deceiving another player by leading them to a dangerous place, most likely in the Wilderness. Since 28 March 2007, it has been considered scamming.”

Extra proof action is taken against lurers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t9BBWaJ_Jo

Hi mom

Your 'proof' that action gets taken against lurers is highly uncommon, I've personally been in close contact with many lurers since early 2013 and I can personally recall only 2-3 accounts ever being banned. Your example is way too specific. There are hundreds of fish in the sea, and they will continue going unpunished by jagex.

 

[funbox]

Your 'proof' that action gets taken against lurers is highly uncommon, I've personally been in close contact with many lurers since early 2013 and I can personally recall only 2-3 accounts ever being banned. Your example is way too specific. There are hundreds of fish in the sea, and they will continue going unpunished by jagex.

You aren't being logical with any of your posts. "oh, because a few people get banned it and rare bans it means it's allowed"

Same principle can be used on real world trading on rs. It's obviously against the rules but bans are rare, does it mean it's allowed?

 

Posted a response to Dave earlier regarding this.

I don't have the power to edit titles or polls in this section.

I think it's fine the way it is. While this discussion may have originally been about luring Sythe members and seems to have diverged into luring as a whole, we would be backtracking the discussion already taking place if we changed the poll, which, in result, would be counterproductive in solving this issue. Besides, isn't luring Sythe members already against the rules? As stated by KerokeroCola:

Please do NOT partner with another Sythe member and lure him as the intended target. We see this as undermining your trust, and we consider it scamming.

If that is the case, it should be added to the list of official rules to avoid confusion.

 

[Dave]

This has been posted about quite a few times:
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1670083-rules-game-activity.html
http://www.sythe.org/runescape-guides-minigames-servers/1210960-another-luring-thread.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1667367-make-luring-perm-ban-offense.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1402458-glitching-luring.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1235656-luring-should-not-allowed-sythe.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1183162-luring-vs-scamming.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1080006-luring-classed-scamming.html

All of those denied, but if this pole will really result in a change in the rules, then I vote no. Luring doesn't work based on forcible stealing of one's wealth or abuse of recovery systems like paypal chargebacks or whatever. It's entirely at the victim's free will that they allow themselves to be lured, so it's not sythe mods' jobs beat common sense into users

This pretty much sums it up. This has been discussed a million times and the final decision stands as -

The topic has been discussed about a thousand times before and we always come back to two essential points:

1. Luring is a game mechanic. You can't have PvP without letting players 'convince' other players to join them in unsafe areas.

2. The matter involves no element of RWT therefore we don't handle it. Complain to Jagex if you think a player has scammed you in-game.

Now, a majority of this thread has turned to whether or not knowingly luring members of Sythe/luring people through the use of Sythe.org should be a ban-able offense.

This being said, I'm going to make a poll about this in the lower lounge. If it passes, a formal statement will be added into the rules under the scamming section. Feel free to continue discussion on the topic of luring members through Sythe. This thread will be closed within a week with a final decision. Thanks for the discussion guys

 

Luring doesn't work based on forcible stealing of one's wealth or abuse of recovery systems like paypal chargebacks or whatever. It's entirely at the victim's free will that they allow themselves to be lured, so it's not sythe mods' jobs beat common sense into users

Sythe bans for social engineering, so what makes this any different?

 

[Phi]

Sythe bans for social engineering, so what makes this any different?

The difference here is social engineering opens doors for fraud, hacking, black hat things of every nature, while luring doesn't come close to any of that.

Similarly, social engineering breaks the terms of service with most, if not all, webpage hosters, while luring breaks no terms of service. It's illegal in every respect, and could get anyone involved in a lot of trouble. Try and persecute someone for luring you on runescape, see how that goes.

 

The difference here is social engineering opens doors for fraud, hacking, black hat things of every nature, while luring doesn't come close to any of that.

Similarly, social engineering breaks the terms of service with most, if not all, webpage hosters, while luring breaks no terms of service. It's illegal in every respect, and could get anyone involved in a lot of trouble. Try and persecute someone for luring you on runescape, see how that goes.

I understand that social engineering is far more serious than luring, but the fact is that they are both similar in theory. Social engineering, which is not allowed here, is deceiving other people for your benefit. Luring, in theory, is the same thing. You stated "luring doesn't work based on forcible stealing of one's wealth or abuse of recovery systems like paypal chargebacks or whatever. It's entirely at the victim's free will that they allow themselves to be lured, so it's not sythe mods' jobs beat common sense into users." So, when social engineered, are the victim's not at their own free will?

 

I've personally said no for a variety of reasons.

Its against the purpose of our website, there is no real reason for it to be allowed here. This is a market for virtual goods/gaming discussion site, etc.

It isn't a "game mechanic" any more than scamming someone is a "game mechanic." Jagex has since banned people for luring, and even refunded items even more recently.

It usually involves fraud to get people into the wilderness. "Luring" a pk'er into multi by running away is fine. But lying to someone to steal something worth real world money is fraud.

 

[Phi]

I understand that social engineering is far more serious than luring, but the fact is that they are both similar in theory. Social engineering, which is not allowed here, is deceiving other people for your benefit. Luring, in theory, is the same thing. You stated "luring doesn't work based on forcible stealing of one's wealth or abuse of recovery systems like paypal chargebacks or whatever. It's entirely at the victim's free will that they allow themselves to be lured, so it's not sythe mods' jobs beat common sense into users." So, when social engineered, are the victim's not at their own free will?

To a point sure, but once the one who is stealing information actually gets the information-- say your bank password or enough of your identity to commit identity theft-- it's no longer under the victim's free will when they're scammed or impersonated or have their bank account emptied. At that point, someone else is in power over them, and they're helpless to stop the continual damage being inflicted upon their credit, wealth, and safety.

With luring, the power, right up until their loss of wealth, rests entirely with the victim who's too gullible to realize they're being lured.