[Approved] Update Official Middlemen

I've learned a lot about OMM's so I will go with no support. I personally don't see any issues with how it is currently and quite honestly, I am quite happy with how many OMM's we already have.

Even with me having my own OMM app up and seeing past applicants denied, I know that it isn't something that will be easily obtained and I don't see any reason to rush to get anymore. I also do not see how increasing trade values would really do anything at all. Sure you can argue it means you haven't scammed X amount but in reality, it doesn't really change much if anything at all. I do believe that bias should be used in this process and firmly stand behind it. We aren't in a desperate need for more OMM's. Very much like you have said, there are people that ONLY use OMM's with me being one of them. What we do need is for newcomers to start using the MM process more instead of going first to randoms. That isn't the fault of the current system that is in place.

Something that @Sythe himself said that fits quite perfectly with my point is:
"All we can do is give people tools and show them how to use them, if they still can't figure it out sucks to be them"

If someone is dedicated towards getting the rank, they won't care about how many times they were denied. Because you are given a pointer in the right direction so you can better yourself and do better next time you apply. If someone wants OMM then they just have to show they are consistent with what they do. No need to change anything in regards to this in my personal opinion.

My issue is, people that are determined and have had all the proofs and more have been denied after 2017. I’m not saying we should rush getting more into action right away. I’m saying be fair and abide by the requisites of obtaining the rank. If someone is denied there has to be a good reason if they did what was needed to be accepted.

There are many “non randoms” that are extremely trusted that MM on the daily that definitely deserve the rank. I agree that OMM are trusted but that shouldn’t change your perception on how trusted they are in the end. It can be a factor but not the determining factor as vouches cover that in my option.

Also most OMM’s aren’t active enough but that’s my personal opinion. Others can chime in

 

[Lorenzo]

Yeah man that’s my whole point. Increase it BUT actually accept new people that pass the requirements legitly, instead of deny everyone like champ and wortel and others. I agree with you 100% tho

That doesn't work the point of the rank is to have it be exclusive if you make it just here are the requirements and people get it. That doesn't work it doesn't stand by what the rank has stood for. That's why changing the money amount won't matter because the point is it's supposed to be exclusive. If people have more trust in a normal MM then a certain OMM then so be it. Use that MM. There are plenty of free MM that are don't need OMM to be trusted.

 

i support. I think OMM could use a rework. And IMO the OMM should all just have the same flat fee's across the board. I understand time is money, but if your truly wanting to help the community and you get OMM, then you shouldn't care to make a killing. Lower fees from OMM would be nice to see.

Official middlemen should have no fee.

 

That doesn't work the point of the rank is to have it be exclusive if you make it just here are the requirements and people get it. That doesn't work it doesn't stand by what the rank has stood for. That's why changing the money amount won't matter because the point is it's supposed to be exclusive. If people have more trust in a normal MM then a certain OMM then so be it. Use that MM. There are plenty of free MM that are don't need OMM to be trusted.

Getting the proofs and requirements is already a tall task just ask @Pegasus xD, exclusiveness is important I agree but people deserving the rank should get it by doing what is required as well as having good ethics and etc, but I have seen many legit people get denied that have had this and beyond.

True about using a regular MM but I believe that OMM should rightfully be the preferred MM's to circumvent less scams as Tyler pointed out, and I believe many people that would never scam have been denied. Just my opinion

 

[Lorenzo]

Correct but at the end of the day as the process may change because it has through the years and that's a possibility the way that people are actually chosen won't change.

 

Correct but at the end of the day as the process may change because it has through the years and that's a possibility the way that people are actually chosen won't change.

It seem to has changed a bit tho after 2017 as even some great users has been denied. I would love to hear some more clarification on this from mods as well

 

[Tyler]

My issue is, people that are determined and have had all the proofs and more have been denied after 2017. I’m not saying we should rush getting more into action right away. I’m saying be fair and abide by the requisites of obtaining the rank. If someone is denied there has to be a good reason if they did what was needed to be accepted.

If you meet the prereq that does not mean you'll automatically be accepted.

Also you don't seem to know how the procsss works, if somebody is denied they are given the reasoning as to why and they are free to work on it before their next application.

 

Most people will use other MM's as they are free and often more trusted and active.

Many people won't use anyone BUT an OMM.

That is a contradiction, either people will be more likely to use an OMM or they will be more likely to use a free MM (who isn't official). When I tell my clients that I'll use someone like @QBD or @Laziz they are normally happy doing that.

1. Make this more of a serious role.

Currently it doesn't seem like the role is taken too seriously. Maybe that is just me. I think it was in the past but today in this day and age it isn't. I suggest revamping it and giving people more incentive to try and apply. I feel most don't apply because either no one is being accepted and there's also no talk about becoming an OMM.

Maybe the reason they're not applying is simply because they are collecting proofs? I feel that a lot of people haven't collected the proofs that they want. I think an OMM mentioned before in the past that if you use 1B+ 07 trades for say trades over $200, it will be more impressive than someone who applies and only puts the minimum requirements in their application(s). It might have been that people realise this and therefore they want to include more impressive vouches in their application so they're more likely to be accepted.

There seems to be some confusion and separation between newer members and older members in having to do with this role.

Could you elaborate on what the confusion is between the newer and older members having to do with this role?

The rank definitely has importance and I believe the newer members (last 2 years) should have a fair chance as well

What makes you think that newer members don't have a fair chance to get the rank? They didn't get it on their first attempt? Maybe if that's the case, it's something to do with them putting their bare minimum in their application(s) instead of going beyond those minimum requirements to make their application(s) look more impressive

but it seems like it isn't fair or everyone who applied recently has sucked? It would be nice to hear other opinions as well

Can you define recently? Looking at the OMM section, there doesn't appear to be an application that has been in voting since February this year. I think it's more to do with the fact that less people are applying, which could be to do with the fact that they want their OMM applications to look more impressive so they're more likely to get the rank.

2. Remove the role from extremely inactive Members

We don't want someone coming back from a long hiatus and scamming out. or a possible account breach. If I recall this has happened and I think a cleanup would be good as technical core did as well.

I'm fairly sure this is already a thing. In order to remain an OMM, I'm fairly sure that you need to maintain the rank as well. If an OMM could confirm this, please quote this to confirm whether this is correct or not.

Make it more prestigious/difficult to achieve.

It's already difficult to achieve, what makes you think that putting a higher trust will make it more prestigious? If people are already struggling to get the OMM Rank, I don't see how your suggestion would change this. It would still lead to the same outcome, more people getting denied than accepted.

 

[King]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume you're suggesting something similar along these lines:

1) Increased requirements to apply for the role.
2) A cleanup of inactive OMM, and/or more strict activity requirements for OMM.
3) Better guidelines in place for those looking to become OMM (which also some what ties into point one as well).

Regardless there's quite a bit to touch on here, and myself being a previously denied OMM applicant I can probably provide some more insight here as well.

Personally speaking, I was going for the omm rank and vowed to remain free in perpetuity because the only reason I mm is to help out, however I got extremely demotivated in pursuing it because I was told even mods/admins got denied this role. People like me who don’t partake in the market as much as others who do so daily don’t stand a chance at achieving this role unfortunately.

Most omm don’t even mm anymore, they just have the rank lol. Revamping the current omms is a must, and perhaps some clear guidelines on what is required..

I don't necessarily believe you being demotivated to apply because of that means you're looking to apply for the wrong reasons as it can appear to you that it may feel like a waste of time to apply to begin with, however I understand both sides in regards to that. As for your 2nd point I 100% agree, which I'll touch on below.

There are already activity requirments for omms and they are removed if they dont meet these requirments. What are you talking about?

I'm not sure what these activity requirements are, but no changes have been made in the OMM team since I got staff up until now (approx 2 yrs) other than Tmoe getting reinstated as OMM when some of them had lengthy periods of inactivity.

Example 1 - Mr Extremez went over a year without bumping his OMM thread/always had his role. He also was involved in a Discord MM scam right as he returned to middle-manning (seen here). He resolved that report/owned up to his mistake, so I won't hold him too much on that, but in regards to the activity itself that's unacceptable.

Example 2 - Tmoe got reinstated to OMM around 6 months ago. He bumped his thread once since being reinstated, and hasn't been seen anywhere on the forums since.

Example 3 - Similar to Mr Extremez, Azie stopped MMing for quite some time (around the time he originally resigned/was really busy IRL I believe), and had a period in which his thread hasn't been bumped for over a year.

Example 4 - Shin hasn't bumped his thread in over 3 years. It also takes extremely long to have threads moved to voting. I'm not sure how this activity is justifiable especially as the head OMM. If you're too busy, then choose someone you deem fit enough to carry that role on, and/or poll with all the current OMM to see who everyone would deem as the best fit for the role moving forward.

I'm not sure if the bump button was utilized at all, but I don't recall, however if it was for anyone here/other OMM then my apologies. There are some more examples I can provide, but for the most part the rest of the team has been relatively consistent.

Note: This isn't meant to target anyone, and/or put them down either as I believe they're all great people and overall great additions to the OMM team when active, but when their activity is a severe issue it needs to be addressed. They all deserved their roles/can always have their rank temporarily removed until they're ready to return. That being said though it's all up to the head OMM to do this, however I believe that's still Shin and I'm not sure if he's currently active as he wasn't prior, so a change in that may be needed for more initiative to be taken (@video would be a great fit for that role imo as he carries every quality you look for in a leadership position, and is without a doubt one of the most trusted on the site).

Champ was denied.. lol
I’d understand anyone being denied, but Champ? Legit made no sense to me, but yeah. Perhaps the rank was indeed not for me

While I believe Wortel, and I were also solid candidates (although that's not up for me to decide), ultimately the fact that Champ was denied surprised me the most. I don't know the specific reasons he was denied, but I understand there may be some flaws, however those can easily be fixed/avoided in the future (not sure how major they were). That being said if you can't trust an admin who's been here almost as long/if not longer than most OMM with a 100% clean slate to facilitate a trade for you, then who can you trust? I get that there are strict guidelines, and that's good, but that was just bizarre to me.

Also you don't seem to know how the procsss works, if somebody is denied they are given the reasoning as to why and they are free to work on it before their next application.

As for this I can somewhat agree. For my case in specific, while I could've handled certain MM's better (in specific account trades even though I never ran into issues with my method), there was no specific guideline to follow. Sure I could've PM'd OMM's to clarify certain things, however the stickies/threads are too generic at the current moment and need to be updated to include a guide to handling every specific trade in the current day due to how much has changed since (or at least the most popular ones) to assist those looking to get into middle-manning. Another reason I was given was that I didn't have enough variety/had too many high-level trades with the same individual. The same individual trusted me to middleman over $3,000-$5,000 three times or so. I don't recall if them not having PM's for those was an issue, but I clarified one didn't have a Sythe account and the other didn't want one/was in voice call with me as he was a friend. You also have to understand the other party put me in a position of trust as well, and I included way more than the required amount of proofs/had several different types of trades in my application, so that issue never made sense to me. I contacted Shin about it before and got no reply. I'm not saying I'm a perfect candidate by any means, but that particular reasoning was bogus to me.

 

In response to @Management

1. Most people that use MM's on a daily basis use people like QBD or Laziz obviously as they are known to be arguably the most trusted people on site that aren't moderators. But many new people wouldn't know this because they wouldn't see them under the OMM role. I think better transparency in which OMM's should be "preferred" and because of this it needs to be revamped as most OMM's are inactive despite even bumping their OMM threads (probably using an auto bumper)

2. I agree that might be part of the problem, I feel that recently many people are demotivated to even try due to the inactivity of the Head OMM and most OMM's that are out of date a bit in the sense that they are almost never around doing their services. Someone can check this within the OMM's threads/vouches to see their inactivity. People are demotivated because they see people like @King @Wortel @Champ and others being denied repeatedly, with the voting process taking way too long. I believe this role needs a fresh start and current ACTIVE OMM's can keep their roles ofc.

3. My point about the separation of newer and older members is that older members had a fair chance of getting this role, many current OMM's that had applied a few years back seem to apply to a Cal State school In College Terms, but now the acceptance rate is like going to Harvard Law or some shit except no one gets it even people friends with the school (mods). So this separation has grown overtime with many OMM's being more a thing of the past compared to the future, where many other active Non OMM's who operate a lot more actively and with larger amounts, that definitely should have a shot at this role.

4. In regards to why no one has been accepted recently there is no question that something Is up. Look at the current OMM's and look at who's been denied and let that do the talking. No calling out any names but there could've been some Great additions including @King and others, while some current OMM's I would definitely not trust as much as them ^. The person in charge of determining OMM's has been extremely inactive as well.

5. Yes many people have not applied but the people who have are beyond qualified and I think we can all agree there. I believe there could be many other people applying (like myself and a few others I have spoken to) that would consider applying but seeing as there is no real benefit and seeing extremely reputable members being denied consistently doesn't help and makes them believe they would end up failing. I think it would be cool if we overhaul the threads make an announcement and potentially give OMM's other perks and incentive to go for it. It would make Sythe bigger and better and circumvent more trade.

6. In response to the inactivity point @King gives a perfect response on the issues as I had not been involved with it. What he said just proves my point and I had expected it to be the case with others not just him.

7. I understand it is already difficult to achieve. Why not make it more of a steep slope but actually accept new applicants? Would you personally want an OMM only being trusted with.a measly $500, when there are many trades well over that amount? It keeps the difficulty that is has right now with that change, but for the right reasons. Not due to the Head OMM being extremely inactive and no effort and time along with gray areas to what determines an individual to become an OMM.

IN Response to King, I agree with everything and glad he pointed out more issues I failed to do so earlier. I believe we should shift the change to a more active person and I believe @video would be the perfect candidate. Potentially the vote can be between other OMM's and Moderators to determine new OMM's.

Would love to hear more responses on this issue as well!

 

[Shin]

Example 4 - Shin hasn't bumped his thread in over 3 years. It also takes extremely long to have threads moved to voting. I'm not sure how this activity is justifiable especially as the head OMM. If you're too busy, then choose someone you deem fit enough to carry that role on, and/or poll with all the current OMM to see who everyone would deem as the best fit for the role moving forward.

I'm not in OMM usergroup or have the rank since becoming HMM. I turn down OMM's and perform HMM-related tasks as required.

2. Remove the role from extremely inactive Members

This is already being done. Dave was the latest removed 4 months ago.

 

In response to @Management

1. Most people that use MM's on a daily basis use people like QBD or Laziz obviously as they are known to be arguably the most trusted people on site that aren't moderators. But many new people wouldn't know this because they wouldn't see them under the OMM role. I think better transparency in which OMM's should be "preferred" and because of this it needs to be revamped as most OMM's are inactive despite even bumping their OMM threads (probably using an auto bumper)

Usually when a user asks to use an MM, that typically implies any middleman. A lot of new users would see someone like QBD (who has 2400+ vouches) or Laziz (who holds 3000+ vouches) and would agree to do it because they would be able to see that these people have tens of thousands of dollars traded, possibly even many hundreds of thousands of dollars traded (and even more, going up to millions of dollars traded). I feel that people are more inclined to use a free middleman because both parties will not be out of pocket whereas, if you're using an OMM, there is a 99% chance that you're going to have to pay some kind of fee unless of course, the OMM has some kind of promotion on when they're doing it for free in which case people would just do that.

As for inactive OMM's, if they're autobumping the threads but not actually OMMing, I'm fairly sure that falls under the false advertisement rule. Same as if someone was advertising they were selling gold but not actually online to sell the gold.

2. I agree that might be part of the problem, I feel that recently many people are demotivated to even try due to the inactivity of the Head OMM and most OMM's that are out of date a bit in the sense that they are almost never around doing their services. Someone can check this within the OMM's threads/vouches to see their inactivity. People are demotivated because they see people like @King @Wortel @Champ and others being denied repeatedly, with the voting process taking way too long. I believe this role needs a fresh start and current ACTIVE OMM's can keep their roles ofc.

As far as I can see, the three users you listed above earlier, only got denied once

I understand that people get denied repeatedly, but I truly believe that it is a rare occurrence for an individual to actually get the OMM role on their first application. I agree that the inactive OMM's shouldn't be able to stay and as I did say earlier, I'm fairly sure that you should be required to maintain the role after achieving it otherwise it's meaningless and people could just apply to hoard the rank.

3. My point about the separation of newer and older members is that older members had a fair chance of getting this role, many current OMM's that had applied a few years back seem to apply to a Cal State school In College Terms, but now the acceptance rate is like going to Harvard Law or some shit except no one gets it even people friends with the school (mods). So this separation has grown overtime with many OMM's being more a thing of the past compared to the future, where many other active Non OMM's who operate a lot more actively and with larger amounts, that definitely should have a shot at this role.

I understand this point. This may have been done mainly because of the fact that the older members applied when there was a lack of OMM's. Now there are many of them to the point where the OMM rank has become harder to obtain so that there isn't an over-saturation of OMM's. I'm sure that non-OMM's who operate more actively and with larger amounts would definitely have a shot at this role if they decided to apply. Also, I'm not sure why a person who is a friend of a moderator would be more likely to get the OMM rank over someone that isn't a friend of a moderator.

4. In regards to why no one has been accepted recently there is no question that something Is up. Look at the current OMM's and look at who's been denied and let that do the talking. No calling out any names but there could've been some Great additions including @King and others, while some current OMM's I would definitely not trust as much as them ^. The person in charge of determining OMM's has been extremely inactive as well.

5. Yes many people have not applied but the people who have are beyond qualified and I think we can all agree there. I believe there could be many other people applying (like myself and a few others I have spoken to) that would consider applying but seeing as there is no real benefit and seeing extremely reputable members being denied consistently doesn't help and makes them believe they would end up failing. I think it would be cool if we overhaul the threads make an announcement and potentially give OMM's other perks and incentive to go for it. It would make Sythe bigger and better and circumvent more trade.

I'm looking at the applications that have and haven't been accepted recently. There has been nobody applying for the past 5-6 months. People can choose to apply, if they decide not to apply then they have a greater likelihood of their OMM application being archived. If in the worse case they get declined, it gives them plenty of opportunity to collect new trades and reapply as well as working on their feedback that they get given on why they were denied as @Tyler mentioned earlier. You do say that reputable members being denied consistently doesn't help and makes them believe that they end up failing however, if you gave the OMM rank to every staff member, high donor and every user with 1k+ vouches then the OMM rank would become over-saturated and would not mean anything due to too many people having it.

If you feel like you are trusted enough to be an OMM, why haven't you applied? You don't know if you'd get denied or not unless you apply.

As for incentives for OMM's, what is your proposal? OMM's are already given an opportunity to charge a fee for their service which is definitely a good financial benefit. What other benefits would make you more likely to apply for the OMM role?

Look forward to hearing your opinions!

 

Official middlemen should have no fee.

Well I agree, but like I said everyone that I've met here so far say time is money. But again IMO you normally only go for this to help ppl not get Insta scammed. So normally you would want to help ppl. But I think some found it as a business, and they look to profit from it.

 

[xJumpman]

You have my support on this @Assassin

I was thinking on this for a while and do you think Mod+ should even have OMM? I think it should be a separate role (if it isn't already). They could just advertise that they are Mod/Admin and get money for middlemanning transactions. I might sound dumb to suggest that, because some OMM would get Mod+ after being one for a long time. I'm not sure if this is a good suggestion or idea. Let me know what you and other people think on that.

 

Update: Just went through the process myself. I must say @Shin always replied in a very timely manner to any questions and concerns I had with the process. I had to delete a bunch of stuff start over and switch things around and it took a lot of my time but I always had him there to help me out if I was stuck. He gave me good pointers and advice. What's Important was that he was there and truly carried himself as he should as the HMM. Accepted or Denied, it was a nice process but not easy process overall and that's how it should be.

I think with Heavier Activity Restrictions and by that making sure they are at least bumping their MM Topic and interacting on Sythe, it will be much better and refreshing as a whole. @King made up some valid points

More MM's or Higher Requirements can be decided by the admins/mods themselves. I believe it would help a lot but ultimately it will be decided by them. The process is hard but I do believe the top requirement should be a tad higher. Thanks

Shin gave me a good response to why some more specific guidelines are missing. They want people to learn as they go. Make mistakes and improve them and improve their process of MMing. The Guidelines may need some sort of changes but I get this reasoning behind It all.

Overall I believe there should be some changes but not as drastic as I had previously thought. Thanks for hearing me out.

Assassin

 

I think that MMS shouldn't learn as they go, all MMS should have specific guidelines to follow in every single case otherwise you make them liable for not using the method that you know is the right one ending up in rejections.

 

[Eru]

Official middlemen should have no fee.

Middlemanning a trade takes time, and it is only fair to be compensated for that time. Whether you are an official middleman or not.

 

Middlemanning a trade takes time, and it is only fair to be compensated for that time. Whether you are an official middleman or not.

People should aim to be official middlemen for the community and the safety of others. If you can’t take 20 minutes out of your day to prevent someone from potentially losing hundreds of dollars, then your morals are off.

That’s just my opinion though.

 

[Eru]

People should aim to be official middlemen for the community and the safety of others. If you can’t take 20 minutes out of your day to prevent someone from potentially losing hundreds of dollars, then your morals are off.

That’s just my opinion though.

If you don't pay someone for preventing you from losing hundreds of dollars, I think you are abusing this someone. Time is probably the most valuable thing we have so I won't expect someone to just hand it to me.

 

[Blue Sentinel]

They earned the role I don't see any point in stripping it from them. If your going to take it from them for inactivity then make another rank such as "retired OMM" mods and administrators have it so why not OMM.