Allow staff to ban evaders when caught

[Panda]

you have to control them so the site can run as normally as possible with as little scams as possible.

The only long term solution to this is making sure our users are informed about possible scams etc through stickies and what not. Having moderators go on a ban spree is just a temp solution you can compare with trying to remove water from a boat without fixing the hole causing the leak.

 

[Butta]

I rarely read threads but ...
so stupid to even question this, ban if you know he is an evader.
Staff must have been on coke to even decide against this

 

[Buyacc]

This gives staff a massive amount of power - It basically gives them the right to get on, scroll through the userbase and ban people they believe are in violation of the rules at any point for anything without any other party being involved - those same people who can get on and ban people at will(assuming their in violation of the rules) are also relied on to moderate those same peoples cases which really doesn't work well and while I don't know the inner workings of staff I know it would be difficult to spend an hour hunting someone down in my own time only to have them try to pardon and remain indifferent - I don't know how often staff refuse to vote or just remain neutral but I'm sure(hopefully) it does happen.

There have already been good suggestions in this thread to combat this though. One good suggestion is that moderators still have to make a RaS post before the user is banned so that everything is done publicly. This way moderators are basically doing the same as normal forum members which are looking for ban evaders, the only advantage moderators then have is that they have certain moderator perks which allow them to find ban evaders more easily and therefor get more of them banned.

 

There have already been good suggestions in this thread to combat this though. One good suggestion is that moderators still have to make a RaS post before the user is banned so that everything is done publicly. This way moderators are basically doing the same as normal forum members which are looking for ban evaders, the only advantage moderators then have is that they have certain moderator perks which allow them to find ban evaders more easily and therefor get more of them banned.

That is supposed to be the status quo. There is also a thread in the SL for private and/or complex cases. I was only in favor of that for bans that needed to be private. Now it seems everyone is making private reports for no reason and abusing the precedent

 

good job Worty!

I, myself, apparently 'headhunt' as well and have been scolded for the same thing. It's a shame really.

I do feel like as staff, we are there to support the community in multiple ways, including making the site a safer place for our trading needs. After knowing about several Vaders, I can't help but turn a blind eye and wait for someone to be scammed. I almost have to ask for permission if I think the ban is questionable even if the proofs are precise.

I SUPPORT the idea of staff being able to ban vaders as it really doesn't do any harm, at all. Yes, it's an endless cycle to keep up with but its sort of a hobby for a few of us, to make Sythe a safe place to trade.

Although, instead of privately banning these individuals sometimes, we can easily make a Ban evader report ourselves in front of the public, and another Moderator can double-check the work/report to justify the ban. Just like anyone else, post a report in the Evader section and let another mod handle the report. too easy.

 

The only long term solution to this is making sure our users are informed about possible scams etc through stickies and what not. Having moderators go on a ban spree is just a temp solution you can compare with trying to remove water from a boat without fixing the hole causing the leak.

again you are taking it as headhunting....as wortel said it is if staff happens to come accross one

 

[Shin]

There have already been good suggestions in this thread to combat this though. One good suggestion is that moderators still have to make a RaS post before the user is banned so that everything is done publicly. This way moderators are basically doing the same as normal forum members which are looking for ban evaders, the only advantage moderators then have is that they have certain moderator perks which allow them to find ban evaders more easily and therefor get more of them banned.

I've already told staff multiple times if they want to ban people who are evading, they need to create a report in "Report a Ban Evader" section with sufficient evidence without the use of staff tools (IP audit, staff lounge, etc.). Their argument to this is simply, "That's a waste of time. I can do it myself." In saying that, all reports created by regular users are then a waste of time, which isn't the case. Of course to that they might say something like, "Well that's not how I feel. You're taking things out of context.", but I'm not. It's to reveal how much of a waste of staff time and site resources are to "headhunt" for ban evaders in a staff capacity. Ask yourself what's really being accomplished in doing this.

That is supposed to be the status quo. There is also a thread in the SL for private and/or complex cases. I was only in favor of that for bans that needed to be private. Now it seems everyone is making private reports for no reason and abusing the precedent

This seems to be the case, yes. I have people message me every other day asking to submit private reports, but I ask them what's the reason for the report being private. As you said, there shouldn't be a great need for this as transparency between staff and the community is important.

I SUPPORT the idea of staff being able to ban vaders as it really doesn't do any harm, at all. Yes, it's an endless cycle to keep up with but its sort of a hobby for a few of us, to make Sythe a safe place to trade.

You're right - It is an endless cycle and if staff want to call it a "hobby" that's fine. However, to think it's making Sythe a safe place to trade is preposterous. If you want to help Sythe to truly be a "safer place", then staff should be spending all of their "hobby time" educating users the risks involved with trading. You're wasting time banning the same individuals over and over again while also banning users who don't deserve it or were banned with a lackluster amount of evidence. If you think that's not the case, then you don't really understand why this has become such a hot topic again, as I've uncovered at least 5-10 bans that were incorrectly placed in the last 2 months by staff without spending too much time auditing staff work. Those staff members were contacted and the mistakes corrected, although some of those users who were incorrectly banned have still not returned. Hell, I created a long list of all the users that were pardoned in 2017. At least 20% of those users were banned again and 15% of them haven't even logged in or have been MIA since their pardon.

 

As long as it's documented somewhere I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be allowed. If you don't want mods to do that as their primary job you can just let them but not give modscore or whatever for it.

Seems a little bizarre to not let them deal with ban evaders they find purely because they're staff now.

 

[S]

Looks like the system has changed as to when I was on staff. Previously, as long as you posted on a certain SL thread the ban reason, proof, etc/documented the proof within their ban reason, you didn't need to make a public report.

If the reason for this change is due to lack of oversight and the bare minimum of due diligence been taken, resulting in erroneous bans - then the issue is not the system, it's educating said staff members, and ensuring ALL staff members have the same amount of knowledge relative to reports and bans. It's far better to fix the root cause of the issue, which appears to be lack of knowledge, leading to incorrect bans. Basically, teach/train those that need it.

There should be some level of trust in being a staff member, and they should not have to publicly post reports.

I've said this before, but band-aid fixes are never going to last.

 

[Heads447]

If only staff were this enthusiastic when it comes to maintaining the longevity of this site and less by getting a "kick" or a "hobby" out of catching the same 5-10 people ban evading on a daily basis, Sythe wouldn't in the state it is at right now.

I agree 100% with what @Shin said and when it comes down to reports, staff aren't above the rules and should use the RaS/RaBE with proof/evidence just like any regular user would. The concept of checks and balances exist for a reason.

 

[S]

I agree 100% with what @Shin said and when it comes down to reports, staff aren't above the rules and should use the RaS/RaBE with proof/evidence just like any regular user would. The concept of checks and balances exist for a reason.

The same concept is applied in the SL. Staff still need to post proof, etc. I just don't see any logic behind @Shin wanting staff to post reports publicly, when it all does it demotivate, and show that said staff appear to be unreliable, hence the need for publicly posting.

 

I don't see any harm in allowing willing staff members/users to spend their free time keeping the community safe. Sure a good amount of them will just ban evade and some won't get caught, but there are a lot of scammers that are almost instantly banned when they create a new account thanks to users like @Wortel @Champ @King @Pendulum @Yousuckv2 @Mr.King @Milotic @Gladiator @A Broken Man and others.

If these users are told to stop, I think we will see:
- More newcomers getting scammed on their first trade and quitting the website resulting in less activity
- Less incentive to repay their victims and pardon. Having voted on hundreds of pardons I've noticed reformed users that have ban evaded for months - years without scamming a single person get banned which has led to them repaying their victims, pardoning, and becoming a valuable sythe user. I also think it's amazing that everyone that helps us catch these scammers (even past scammers that have reformed) offer their free time to help the community knowing they won't get anything in return.

Thanks to them around $2000+ has been collected to repay scam victims not even mentioning the hundreds of scams they prevented which I believe has helped the site more, outweighing any possible negative outcomes that could occur.

I support as long as the reports that staff make are public and are treated as if it was any regular member posted it and can't be handled by the staff that posted it... if not no support

Why?
Because you your self-tried to get me banned for ban evasion and wouldn't show me report which IMO is an abuse of power when I was in fact, I was innocent, I feel as if staff going make a report they should make it public to avoid any issue's

Edit: also like to note this gives staff recognition for there reports and will make them more liked by the community (the general community)

This means that staff are not allowed to make private reports...

Disallowing everyone from filing private reports won't do any good. Other staff members, regular users, and myself have received very serious threats from scammers when they are banned, not to mention having the post public may teach them how to ban evade more effectively. If you are concerned that you are being hunted or falsely banned, you are encouraged to dispute it since multiple staff members will re-review the case.

 

Sythe staff sit as a court - Not bounty hunters.

Courts address issues brought to their attention by their community whether that be local, state, federal, etc - The question is not whether staff should be able to ban users they go hunting for - The question is should it be acceptable that the courts themselves can take action without another party being involved - At that point I would consider staff more police than a court.

If a judge has evidence of a crime(Sythe staff) - That judge cannot just bring that person into his court room and deliver a verdict no matter how good the evidence is. Each staff is essentially a judge and the collective staff team sit as a judges panel.

To use information from a fellow judge for others Judges to act on that information would be biased and basically give Sythe staff the power of police and judge - something that is a massive power creep compared to where they currently sit.

Sythe staff as judges should have to receive evidence from a non-biased party that is not related to the judgement of the case - When you have a judge as the prosecutor of that sythe member how can you expect a fair trial among the panel of judges? You cant.

It's one of the things where if Wortel brings a case to the sythe staff team - They know of his reliability and planning and thus they would already be biased towards him and his case. Where if a 3rd party brought forward the same grievance that 3rd party is far more like to receive a non-biased judgement from the panel of Sythe staff as they don't know him so they'll actually vote on the merits of the case itself - not whos presenting it.

Plus it hurts activity when you go headhunting - Sythe is rapidly becoming just a autobumper fest where users sign up, pay $50 for an autobumper and never visit the forum again - as much as it pains me to say it if theres nobody left on the forum because every staff is head hunting all day long then it will ultimately kill off the site.

As a forum owner you have to have balance, staff sit as court not police thus they should not be allowed to use the extra tools granted to them to hunt for users or at worst they should have defined guidelines before being able to dig into users(I.E- A user must have a TWC for not posting via a home IP before staff can investigate) or some restrictions which give staff as a court reasonable cause to investigate that user.

A court being able to just investigate anyone at will - at any point in time with nobody else involved - and deal out punishment basically gives staff unlimited power because you act as judge, jury and executioner with nobody else involved which frankly is the definition of a dictatorship.

It has been said time and time again that Sythe staff sit solely as a court when you start giving the courts the power of police(which individuals currently hold who come to the court with their grievance) then you might as well just let staff ban whoever they wish because at that point there's no checks and balances on the court - Individuals must come to the court with their grievance & proper evidence before the court can act - that is a check and balance on the court of sythe staff - You run the line of a dictator to begin removing the checks and balances.

Thus,

it is a NO SUPPORT from me.

What's the whole thing with comparing Sythe with a court? We're a random website which allows users mainly to trade with others, why shouldn't we encourage those trades for going smooth and stop those scams from even happening? After all we're just like Epicnpc, Elitepvpers with just a way bigger userbase and a bigger market. I'm fairly sure they will laugh their asses of reading this thread.

 

I've already told staff multiple times if they want to ban people who are evading, they need to create a report in "Report a Ban Evader" section with sufficient evidence without the use of staff tools (IP audit, staff lounge, etc.). Their argument to this is simply, "That's a waste of time. I can do it myself." In saying that, all reports created by regular users are then a waste of time, which isn't the case. Of course to that they might say something like, "Well that's not how I feel. You're taking things out of context.", but I'm not. It's to reveal how much of a waste of staff time and site resources are to "headhunt" for ban evaders in a staff capacity. Ask yourself what's really being accomplished in doing this.

Just out of curiosity then, do you allow Scam Reports assisted by moderator tools to be actioned on? Seems slightly like a double standard.

Mods are promoted based on their perceived ability to look after the sections for which they have have permissions in. If that particular mod is using them to attempt to rid the market of vaders then I see that as their own personal choice, as long as evidence is available somewhere to present to the banned user and bans aren't handed out without sufficient evidence. Again, sufficient evidence has always been a subjective matter based on the individual. As long as individual tasks like this don't stop the mod meeting a quota or whatever the system is that you now use, I see no reason to make a headache out of this situation.

Maybe the vaders will return, maybe they wont. Maybe the mod is wasting their own free time, so what?

You're right - It is an endless cycle and if staff want to call it a "hobby" that's fine. However, to think it's making Sythe a safe place to trade is preposterous. If you want to help Sythe to truly be a "safer place", then staff should be spending all of their "hobby time" educating users the risks involved with trading.

I agreed strongly with this when I was staff for sure, preventative materials are worth way more than banning repeat vaders. But hey, personal choice again.


I feel like a staff poll is best for this situation. It looks like it needs to be set in stone one way or another.

 

[X Shadow]

I loved the old Staff method.

Let the Staff have the ability to issue bans on ban-evaders on sight. I support the reinstatement of the ban power.

 

[Panda]

I feel like a staff poll is best for this situation. It looks like it needs to be set in stone one way or another.

If this goes to a staff poll nothing will change before 2020 lul

 

[S]

Don't even see why a poll is needed. The whole concept is completely illogical and counter intuitive. What's the point of having staff members, if their decisions carry the same amount of weight as any other user? What's the point appointing users to staff, if all there decisions have to be publicly approved? Following that logic, we may as well become a communal forum, and only have Richard as a ranked member.

TLDR, just revert to the old system (if it's changed?). Post proof within a SL thread, and done.

 

[eifted]

I think a fair compromise would be if you catch a ban evader. You're able to place a temporary ban of 48 hours on the accounts to be reviewed by a more senior staff member in that time frame.

If the senior member agrees with the decision, they extend the ban to permanent, if they disagree they revoke the ban and the user is allowed continued usage of the site? This way a "four eyes" principle is used and no one can complain as the ban would be actioned by two staff members.

I imagine that Sythe like other boards I have monitored has a staff notes section on each users profile (one that records can't be deleted from) Once a staff member has actioned a ban on the account, then the staff member will need to record a note on the players profile with sufficient evidence of the ban for other staff members to view. Then if there's an issue/discrepancy the staff member concerned can be coached on how to manage the situation correctly going forward.

There shouldn't have to reports from other accounts for a staff member to take action on another user if rule-breaking is evident. If so, why have a staff team in the first place?

If the bans are consistently wrong from a single staff member, then obviously, there's a problem afoot for the management to take up with that member concerned and revoke their privileges if necessary.

I honestly see no harm that can be done here assuming the staff that get this power have sufficient tools to make sure they are correctly banning accounts.

I've already told staff multiple times if they want to ban people who are evading, they need to create a report in "Report a Ban Evader" section with sufficient evidence without the use of staff tools (IP audit, staff lounge, etc.). Their argument to this is simply, "That's a waste of time. I can do it myself." In saying that, all reports created by regular users are then a waste of time, which isn't the case. Of course to that they might say something like, "Well that's not how I feel. You're taking things out of context.", but I'm not. It's to reveal how much of a waste of staff time and site resources are to "headhunt" for ban evaders in a staff capacity. Ask yourself what's really being accomplished in doing this.

Why have a staff team with access to these tools if they're not able to utilize them in the correct manner by banning accounts that are breaking the rules and they have to report them as any other regular account would? Surely the access to these tools would make their jobs much easier, as staff they're already trusted to a sense to make a correct judgment call. If the staff tools make it easier to spot an evader, let them use them to that effect?

 

[Angels]

Shouldn't even be up for debate. Why would people pardon, especially after knowing this, if all they have to do is avoid being caught ban-evading by a normal member? If a staff member finds out they're evading, then they're still off the hook. Quality > Quantity. You don't want Sythe to be a cesspool of scammers and ban evaders.

 

[FireZ]

Shouldn't even be up for debate. Why would people pardon, especially after knowing this, if all they have to do is avoid being caught ban-evading by a normal member? If a staff member finds out they're evading, then they're still off the hook. Quality > Quantity. You don't want Sythe to be a cesspool of scammers and ban evaders.

And you certainly dont want staff banning the same person over and over and over because it may be temporary but it didnt remove a single scammer from the market.

Also its not the staffs responsibility to make sure you trade safely a lot of that lies on each individual user.

Staff need to spend time creating and getting involved in discussions and keeping people around and let nature take its course with trades