The thread disproves god entirely

[dpunk]

Well you can't blame him for the choices you make. That's like saying, it's cause of my mum and dad that I drink and smoke weed all day, when infact it's just the choices you made.

They don't have power over whether you do it in the first place. If he does exist, then he knew from the start that I would not believe in him if enough evidence was not provided. The evidence was not provided, so in turn God knew that I would be an Atheist.

I know but you keep forgetting he let us have free will. With free will, he can see the outcome of every single decision we make in our lives. By giving us free will, he is putting us to the test and asking us "What will you choose my friend?"

But being omniscient he already knows the outcome, so it isn't really a test.

It's just like when your parents let you hang out with your friends. Now has you might have noticed, I'm no theologian but think about it. Your friends could have a good or bad influence on you. Whether you follow those bad choices to do drugs or things like that is totally up to you, but your parents still trust you...

Its a completely different situation since your parents don't have control of every aspect of your life and know every move that you will make beforehand.

Then again, it might not be the same thing cause your parents are not like God, but God's love is greater then a father or a mother's love.

Most mothers that I know would do anything for their children. They would feed them when they are hungry, care for them when they are sick, etc. I see no God taking action against any of the things plaguing people in this world.

Like someone said before, no matter how many proof you present, no one is really ever going to grow from this. No matter how hard you try, it's hard to keep your mind open on such a subject like this, where believing or not believing is just up to the experiences and things that the person has witnessed in their life..

It is very hard to keep an open mind, which is what I try to do most of the time in debates. My aim isn't necessarily to prove to a person that God doesn't exist, but to make them think for themselves.

And like no offense but it kinda gets on my nerves the way your like blaming God for everything, kinda sounds like you can't take responsibility for your actions.
Then again i might be totally wrong.

Most of the things I say in that manner are hypothetical "for the sake of the argument" type statements. If there is a God, then he has ultimate control of everything that goes on, so in the end, all the blame for good and evil ultimately rests with him.

 

[Fallen Soul]

Sorry but no shred. He does not create the circumstances thats where free will comes into place and we ourselves choose whats next on whether we want to make a good decision or not. There for everything we do could change the future. He never says he knows what you are going to do how and why, because then thats going back to us being like robots. I believe that he knows every path we could possibly take, but not of which one we will take. I do believe there are certain things in our life that god does put there to make us a better person whether you choose to see the positive out come or the negative past.

Note: lOl, to all you people who are going to take that the wrong way. What I meant by beat him out of you it was nothing more then a joke.

 

[artboy55]

i dont think u should talk religon out side ur family. but if u have to..i def dont think it should be debated on a website.

 

[Fallen Soul]

Well its a way to talk about things other then runescape and gaming.

 

[dpunk]

Sorry but no shred. He does not create the circumstances thats where free will comes into place and we ourselves choose whats next on whether we want to make a good decision or not. There for everything we do could change the future. He never says he knows what you are going to do how and why, because then thats going back to us being like robots. I believe that he knows every path we could possibly take, but not of which one we will take. I do believe there are certain things in our life that god does put there to make us a better person whether you choose to see the positive out come or the negative past.

The Bible even says something like "Oh lord you planned my days before I was even born."

i dont think u should talk religon out side ur family. but if u have to..i def dont think it should be debated on a website.

Why? Sounds quite silly to me.

 

[Fallen Soul]

The Bible even says something like "Oh lord you planned my days before I was even born.

lol keywords "says something like" your not even sure if he says that if you give me where it says that then fine if not don't just make a comment stating that it says something when you yourself are unsure of it and thats misleading

 

[dpunk]

lol keywords "says something like" your not even sure if he says that if you give me where it says that then fine if not don't just make a comment stating that it says something when you yourself are unsure of it and thats misleading

your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

Wasn't the particular verse I was talking about, but this will do.

edit:Work on your grammar please. Using some punctuation won't kill you.

 

[Fallen Soul]

k, My grammar is fine. I just love my run on sentences...lol one sec looking up that verse then I will get back to you.

Edit:
OK, Well what that means is. Everything we do will never surprise him as in he knows are characteristics and personality. Not in the literal meaning that he knows every single little things and detail of what, when, how, why, where we will do things I sure he knows what things will come across us and at that moment I bet he knows what we will do next. Its hard to explain the concept of it because I don't want to cap gods wisdom here...lol

 

[dpunk]

k, My grammar is fine. I just love my run on sentences...lol one sec looking up that verse then I will get back to you.

Edit:
OK, Well what that means is. Everything we do will never surprise him as in he knows are characteristics and personality. Not in the literal meaning that he knows every single little things and detail of what, when, how, why, where we will do things I sure he knows what things will come across us and at that moment I bet he knows what we will do next. Its hard to explain the concept of it because I don't want to cap gods wisdom here...lol

Sounds more like squirming looking for a rationalization that explaining. You can't get around it, it states it pretty plainly.

edit: You're grammar is still very lacking...

 

[Fallen Soul]

lol whatever dude. My grammar is how it is get over it cause I personally don't care.
and...
I am not squirming looking for a way out I am guessing you got that quote from a website that you keep going back to so you can use there word. Thats fine and all but if you knew what the bible really was you would realize most of the things in there are stated but have allot of meaning behind them. Such as "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" Thats from the old testament. That doesn't mean if your friend accidentally knocks out your tooth you go and bust out his.

 

[Cruel__Machine]

God creates us. He creates our minds, the circumstances when we have to choose between good and evil, etc. Since he knows everything, he knows EXACTLY what we will choose. Therefore, the test is not needed.

To say we have no free will is to say God has no free will. God knows everything He will do. So does "God's will" really exist? Perhaps then just a collective set of predetermined choices? But that wouldn't necessarily mean those choices had predetermined results, even if he knew of the results. And even if he could change the results, to change the results would be to change the choice. So literally knowing everything would entail an infinite predetermined changes to predetermined choices. Haha, I cannot even fathom such a hopeless predicament.
Ug... I have a hard time describing my actual thoughts. I could only imagine if English wasn't my native language...

Anyhow, I don't think God knows everything. Just like I don't think He can do anything He wills. But I still believe his power and knowledge to be infinite. And I believe the terms "omnipotent" and "omniscient" still apply.
After all, if you subtract any value from infinity, it's still infinity.

 

[dpunk]

lol whatever dude. My grammar is how it is get over it cause I personally don't care.
and...

Well I'm just asking because it makes it harder to get you're point across.

I am not squirming looking for a way out I am guessing you got that quote from a website that you keep going back to so you can use there word. Thats fine and all but if you knew what the bible really was you would realize most of the things in there are stated but have allot of meaning behind them. Such as "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" Thats from the old testament. That doesn't mean if your friend accidentally knocks out your tooth you go and bust out his.

Actually back when it was written that passage meant exactly what it said as I'm fairly certain it was in the book of the law, and I have fairly thorough knowledge of the Bible thank-you-very-much. True some things in the Bible are supposedly meant to be taken metaphorically, but usually this is just because the church realizes that the statement is full of shit. Notice that most people have slowly moved away from believing in a seven day creation to it being a metaphor. This situation however, doesn't seem to be one of those. It clearly states that all of our days are recorded before we even live them, which basically says that yes, God does know the future, including the actions that we will take throughout our entire lives.

To say we have no free will is to say God has no free will. God knows everything He will do. So does "God's will" really exist? Perhaps then just a collective set of predetermined choices? But that wouldn't necessarily mean those choices had predetermined results, even if he knew of the results. And even if he could change the results, to change the results would be to change the choice. So literally knowing everything would entail an infinite predetermined changes to predetermined choices. Haha, I cannot even fathom such a hopeless predicament.
Ug... I have a hard time describing my actual thoughts. I could only imagine if English wasn't my native language...

Anyhow, I don't think God knows everything. Just like I don't think He can do anything He wills. But I still believe his power and knowledge to be infinite. And I believe the terms "omnipotent" and "omniscient" still apply.
After all, if you subtract any value from infinity, it's still infinity.

This is one reason I don't think an omnipotent/omniscient being exists. I tend to go with Ockham's Razor on this one. It's all too complicated.

 

[Fallen Soul]

Yeah I understand that it might be hard to get my point across. I will try to speak with a little better grammar.

Yes I do believe there are tons of churches that are full of shit and mix n match the message of the bible. I do believe that there are allot of things that are very wrong that churches do especially catholic ones. I am sorry for that statement "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" I wasn't thinking clearly. You are right that one does mean exactly what it states.

Overall my belief is, God does exist, Lots of people misinterpret the message of the bible. I am also against the most part of catholicism.

 

[ImAFool]

3). God knows the future, correct? If he knew Satan would revolt, why did he create him?

I forgot was this was called, but it was something like if you have something good, you have to have the opposite - bad.

...Yes I know this is a short post

 

[Shredderbeam]

Sorry but no shred. He does not create the circumstances thats where free will comes into place and we ourselves choose whats next on whether we want to make a good decision or not. There for everything we do could change the future. He never says he knows what you are going to do how and why, because then thats going back to us being like robots. I believe that he knows every path we could possibly take, but not of which one we will take. I do believe there are certain things in our life that god does put there to make us a better person whether you choose to see the positive out come or the negative past.

When I say that he creates the circumstances, I mean that he creates the environment, your mindset, mood, the people around you, etc. He apparently designed every part of you. He designed your susceptibility to temptation, how well you could resist peer pressure, etc. He knows EVERYTHING about you, as he designed it ALL.

I forgot was this was called, but it was something like if you have something good, you have to have the opposite - bad.

But why must you have anything at all?

 

[Xtreme Geek]

ｔｈａｔ　ｄｏｅｓｎｔ　ｒｅａｌｌｙ　ｐｒｏｖｅ　ｇｏｄ　ｄｏｅｓｎｔ　ｅｘｉｓｔ，ｉ　ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅ　ｔｈａｔ　ａｆｔｅｒ　ｕ　ｄｉｅ　ｕ　ｅｎｔｅｒ　ａｎｏｔｈｅｒ　ｄｉｍｅｎｓｉｏｎ　ｔｈａｔ　ｉｓ　ｉｎｃｏｍｐｒｅｈｅｎｓｉｂｌｅ　ｔｏ　ｕｓ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｌｉｆｅ，　ａｎｄ　ｗｅ　ｌｉｖｅ　ｉｎ　ａ　ｃｏｎｓｔａｎｔ　ｎｅｖｅｒ　ｅｎｄｉｎｇ　ｃｉｒｃｌｅ．　ｉ　ｍｉｇｈｔ　ｓｔａｒｔ　ｍｙ　ｏｗｎ　ｒｅｌｉｇｉｏｎ　＝）

 

[Fallen Soul]

ｔｈａｔ　ｄｏｅｓｎｔ　ｒｅａｌｌｙ　ｐｒｏｖｅ　ｇｏｄ　ｄｏｅｓｎｔ　ｅｘｉｓｔ，ｉ　ｂｅｌｉｅｖｅ　ｔｈａｔ　ａｆｔｅｒ　ｕ　ｄｉｅ　ｕ　ｅｎｔｅｒ　ａｎｏｔｈｅｒ　ｄｉｍｅｎｓｉｏｎ　ｔｈａｔ　ｉｓ　ｉｎｃｏｍｐｒｅｈｅｎｓｉｂｌｅ　ｔｏ　ｕｓ　ｉｎ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｌｉｆｅ，　ａｎｄ　ｗｅ　ｌｉｖｅ　ｉｎ　ａ　ｃｏｎｓｔａｎｔ　ｎｅｖｅｒ　ｅｎｄｉｎｇ　ｃｉｒｃｌｅ．　ｉ　ｍｉｇｈｔ　ｓｔａｒｔ　ｍｙ　ｏｗｎ　ｒｅｌｉｇｉｏｎ　＝）

Nah, I don't think its a never ending circle. o yeah....use spaces you know the thing where there is an absence of letters for like a 4th of an inch

 

[stevenadrien2]

But see that's what I've been trying to tell you

He knows all the POSSIBLE outcomes, but he also knows and loves you. He knows that you can make good choices and bad choices and he hopes and has faith that you make the good ones.

You say God does not feed you? HAHA that's soo funny. One time, I told my mum the same thing. THis is what she said

"Just because God does not come to you in his Holy clothing and all that does not mean he doesn't feed you. God is present in everyone. Your mum and dad that clothe and feed you everyday is a sign of the presence of God in your life, whether you admit to it or not."

Smart woman.
It's a test because he knows the outcomes, but he asks us the question and hopes we do the good. You keep saying over and over, yes he is omniscient, but you forget that he gave us free will.

Because he gave us this free will means that they are going to be variations in the outcomes. SOrry if i'm making it sound too complicated, but simply stated, he sees everything you COULD do, but he wants to see what you are GOING TO DO.

Omniscient - having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Omnipotent - almighty or infinite in power, as God.

 

[Thikr]

Once again, you are too narrow minded. You use science to disproove God, and God my friend, is not science. You used the example, a cubic-sphere cannot exist, just one of the many things, you try to trick to get an answer out of. Other questions such as, can God create a bolder so heavy he himself cannot lift, but then if he did, he would not be God because he couldn't life it. My answer, is he can do both.

God, is beyond human comphrehension, you can not use mere science to disproove something that has nothing to do with science. We can not even begin to understand, who or what God is.

Let me tell you a little story.

There was a student and a professor. One day, the professor was prooving to his students that God could infact, never exist, as there is good and evil, and God is pure good, how can pure good create anything evil?

A student, raised his hand, and asked the professor. Professor, does darkness exist? The professor quickly responds, well of course it does. Wrong says the student, darkness is simply the absence of light. He went on. Professor, does cold exist? A little more hesitant, the professor answered, well yes. Wrong again said the student, cold is simply the ansence of heat.

He went on with one more question. Professor, does evil exist? The professor firmly nodded and said obviously, look around. The student, firmly, but slowly, shakes his head no. No professor, evil is simply the absence of God.

Now, you may or already have guessed who the student is, for you who do not know, it is Albert Einstein, one of the greatest minds that has been on this planet.

A perfect God can do anything, which includes creating imperfections, if he cannot create imperfections, than he is not perfect, nor is he God. You disprooved yourself. God created us in his perfect likeness, what we do with it, is our own free will and choice. We are perfect in our own ways.

You believe there is no God because of science, I believe there is one, because of heart.

do you not realize that 'evil' is a name, a form of classification for what is an antithesis of all that is good. now we delve deeper into the definition of evil...

good is another term, an idea. Nothing else. What we percieve as good are things like our earth, a perfect distance from the sun, a perfect size, a perfect atmosphere, or even little things like pizza, coffe, the beauty of looking off a cliff at endless miles of stone, vegetation and water. To some even pornography is good. Now take that into consideration. What I think is good may be different from your viewpoint of good. If i like pornography, that makes it good in my eyes. To you however, pornography may be a sin. It is the opposite of good, it is bad, dispicable, detestful, loathesome. in essence it is a sin, and sins as most of us know are 'evil.' Those are two opposite opinions but none the less, they are OPPOSITES.

Hot and cold as well as Light and dark are NOT OPPOSITES although they are often perceived to be. As my good friend Al said, Dark is te absence of light and cold is the absence of heat. They are ALTERNATIVES, not OPPOSITES. The opposites of light would be an 'antiphoton' which dispells or destroys light. The opposite of hot would be 'antiinfrared electromagnetic waves' which infact cancel, destroy, and in essence remove heat from existence. Our laws of physics state that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed but only moved. This means that in this reality there could be no 'antihot' or 'antilight.' Good and Evil are terms. They stand for things. The are words with no shape or form and only represent ideas. In actuality there IS no good or evil, only choices. these choices are classified however with the terms 'good' and 'evil.' this means that a lack of a god is not necissarily the root of evil but infact it is an alternative to any one reality. This means good can exist with OR without a god because it is a term, a logical offspring of unorganized science. There is no way to disprove that my friend...

PS did albert einstein fail that test?

 

[prune juice1]

you say that god doeant exist, but god even said he created sin which alows us to have free will because he loves us, and God created us to serve him, not because he was bored. Giving us free will makes it so we are not robots, we make the choice to be perfect or not, and we have decided to be imperfect, which is why when we die we will not go to heaven the perfect place)

you say that god doeant exist, but god even said he created sin (the choice to not follow god) (which is not evil) which alows us to have free will because he loves us, and God created us to serve him, not because he was bored. Giving us free will makes it so we are not robots, we make the choice to be perfect or not, and we have decided to be imperfect, which is why when we die we will not go to heaven the perfect place)