The thread disproves god entirely

[Shredderbeam]

1) How do you know God doesn't simply create people with the ability to access all aspects of actions? Maybe one can decide to become a murderer as one can decide to stop people from killing eachother. But both people have the same options. The only thing stated is that God can see what choices they are going to make. The rest is merely our beliefs and oppinions on the subject.

At some point, they must make a choice. God, being omniscient, KNOWS what choice they will make. To dispute this is to say that God is not omniscient.

2) If it were they were puppets on the strings of God then again they would not have free will which means you are playing outside of the rules. If they cannot make choices that means they have no free will which means you're ignoring the concepts altogether.

They make the choice they have no choice but to make, because God designed them so.

3) Does it actually state in the bible that all souls senteced to hell recieve the same punishments? If so I would like a source just so I could read it. I'm not being sarcastic if it comes across that way. I honestly just want to know. I am here merely to learn.

It does say that all those who do not accept Jesus as their savior will endure the fire of Gehenna. It's probably in Revelations.

 

[dpunk]

Aww I'm unable to get on and I miss a whole page of delicious debating...anyway nice job keeping the Theists in check shred

 

[Cruel__Machine]

To punish them. However, God is capable of showing the perpetrators of crime just how they did wrong without ever harming them, being all-powerful and such.

I'm quite certain he doesn't punish people who unknowingly sin, but he doesn't reward them either. That is why people (Christians) spread their faith. So people know.

I would skip the Earth stage, and just let everyone into heaven.

You know nothing of it. What if mortality is needed to achieve immortality? There have to be rules that God has to abide by, don't be fooled by "all-powerful". For instance, he cannot create beings more powerful than He. And he cannot perform actions that would disable him from performing other actions. For instance, he cannot create a ball of mass so big that he cannot carry it.

There is clearly misery in our world, and we would be much better off without it.

Says who?

To those who would plead "Free will!", I'm sure the all-powerful God could figure out a different strategy for accomplishing whatever goals he had when he placed us here on Earth.

I don't believe He could. My evidence: He created us.
Where's your evidence to support your statement? Is it that being "all-powerful" implies that there is an infinite solution to problems, therefore there has to be one that follows what you deem to be the correct way?

Now that I think of it, does an all-powerful being need to create? I think not. If God is eternal, does that not mean that God is complete? If God is complete, he does not need to create us.

This is where we muddle in the various definitions of words.
Completeness isn't entailed by eternity. Are the spirits in Hell not eternal? They are there for eternity.

"All-powerful" and "all-knowing" are not real terms. There are merely terms to help describe the state of God. The same way "eternal fire" and "eternal torture" describe Hell. There is no physical torture as described... that just helps us comprehend. The punishments of Hell are spiritual.
So if you believe "all-knowing" entails something that has not happened, then your definition is wrong, apparently. Since one cannot define that which explains the unknown.

 

[dpunk]

You know nothing of it. What if mortality is needed to achieve immortality? There have to be rules that God has to abide by, don't be fooled by "all-powerful". For instance, he cannot create beings more powerful than He. And he cannot perform actions that would disable him from performing other actions. For instance, he cannot create a ball of mass so big that he cannot carry it.

You clearly don't understand omnipotence. No shit an omnipotent being cannot make a ball so big he cannot move it, because size isn't a factor in whether or not an omnipotent being can move a rock. The only factor is whether the omnipotent being wills it or not. The situation is void. I'm sure that an omnipotent being could create a being stronger than itself by becoming weaker. Being omnipotent puts you on the end of the spectrum of power, meaning there is no where else to go. Also, if mortality is required to achieve immortality, would that mean that God was a mortal at one time? Flawed logic if you ask me.

Says who?

I don't know anybody that would rather live a life of misery than one of happiness, it defies human nature.

I don't believe He could. My evidence: He created us.
Where's your evidence to support your statement? Is it that being "all-powerful" implies that there is an infinite solution to problems, therefore there has to be one that follows what you deem to be the correct way?

You evidence isn't really evidence. Can you prove that we were created? No, you can't. The evidence for his statement is in the term all-powerful. Even if there weren't an infinite number of solutions to problems, an all-powerful being could make it so there were. There's no escape from omnipotency.

"All-powerful" and "all-knowing" are not real terms. There are merely terms to help describe the state of God. The same way "eternal fire" and "eternal torture" describe Hell. There is no physical torture as described... that just helps us comprehend. The punishments of Hell are spiritual.

Torture doesn't have to be physical, all-powerful and all-knowing pretty much mean what they say. If there is no God that is omnipotent and omniscient then why call it God?

So if you believe "all-knowing" entails something that has not happened, then your definition is wrong, apparently. Since one cannot define that which explains the unknown.

Are you trying to say that God isn't omniscient or merely trying to weasel your way around it?

 

[ProudCheater]

well, i think i lost an iq point from reading from this dumb ass.
There is much proof as there is proof that god isnt real.
actuly come think about it... Theres more proof of god than there isnt...

 

[dpunk]

well, i think i lost an iq point from reading from this dumb ass.
There is much proof as there is proof that god isnt real.
actuly come think about it... Theres more proof of god than there isnt...

Bah I'd like to see it. Care to share it with me?

 

[Cruel__Machine]

No shit an omnipotent being cannot make a ball so big he cannot move it, because size isn't a factor in whether or not an omnipotent being can move a rock. The only factor is whether the omnipotent being wills it or not. The situation is void.

It's not void. I was listing things an omnipotent being could not do. The ball of mass was an example of one of the items. Was I wrong? No.

I'm sure that an omnipotent being could create a being stronger than itself by becoming weaker.

As I said before, I don't think an omnipotent being can "perform actions that would disable him from performing other actions". Therefore, I don't think he could make himself "weaker".
But that aside, he wouldn't be making a being more powerful than he, he would be making a being with the same power.

Being omnipotent puts you on the end of the spectrum of power, meaning there is no where else to go.

Nope. I don't believe "omnipotence" is on the spectrum, as it is infinite.

Also, if mortality is required to achieve immortality, would that mean that God was a mortal at one time? Flawed logic if you ask me.

Yes, it might mean that. And that's certainly not impossible. And it's not flawed logic, it simply entails even more deep theology that we don't know about.

I don't know anybody that would rather live a life of misery than one of happiness, it defies human nature.

And if misery is the stepping stone to happiness, would it be best to live without it? No.

You evidence isn't really evidence. Can you prove that we were created? No, you can't.

True, my evidence is conditional of the creation. But he was speaking in terms of an "all-powerful being" existing, which could imply creation by that being.

The evidence for his statement is in the term all-powerful. Even if there weren't an infinite number of solutions to problems, an all-powerful being could make it so there were. There's no escape from omnipotency.

Infinite possibilities implies that anything is possible, which I don't believe is true, literally. Just think of any contradiction. He could not perform an action of inaction... he could create something that exists and simultaneously does not exist... etc.
I say such actions do not exist. And if an all-powerful being were to be able to create them, that'd imply the being of a disorderly, unresponsive, and possibly non-existent state. Which then would bring us to the questioning of our existence. This is why I am not certain a God exists. I am only as certain as I am about me sitting here and typing at this moment.
Even if there were an infinite number of solutions, one has to be chosen. Therefore, @shredder, why would any solution be better than another? And why do you feel an "all-powerful" being should've gone a different path?

Torture doesn't have to be physical, all-powerful and all-knowing pretty much mean what they say. If there is no God that is omnipotent and omniscient then why call it God?

Physical torture is often described in the Bible. I was referring to that, since we don't know of any other kind.

Are you trying to say that God isn't omniscient or merely trying to weasel your way around it?

Neither. I'm saying he isn't "omniscient" in context you use.

 

[Xtreme PCer]

I have no idea how people can believe in something as farfetched as god, when science and technology is so dominant. Ok in the middle ages it was a nice idea to keep everybody in check.... Obey your king or you will burn in hell, that sort of talk. But science has more or less explained many things that the bible says god was responsible for. For instance, The Big Bang(caused by chemical reactions), Natural Disasters (Volcanoes caused by gaps in the earth, Earthquaks caused by plates rubbing), Diseases (caused by viruses and bacteria). I look forward to the day SCIENCE disproves god...

 

[Red_Phoenix]

I have no idea how people can believe in something as farfetched as god, when science and technology is so dominant. Ok in the middle ages it was a nice idea to keep everybody in check.... Obey your king or you will burn in hell, that sort of talk. But science has more or less explained many things that the bible says god was responsible for. For instance, The Big Bang(caused by chemical reactions), Natural Disasters (Volcanoes caused by gaps in the earth, Earthquaks caused by plates rubbing), Diseases (caused by viruses and bacteria). I look forward to the day SCIENCE disproves god...

Wow this made me laugh, so your saying that our whole wonderful Universe, humanity, emotions, are all just the product of some amount of chemical coincedences, that if something went slighty more different that the world could have been ruled by cow people.
That just proves how much of an ignorant conformist you are.
And couldn't all these natural happenings just be God at work, if he made the Earth then shouldn't he have had the knowledge that these things were real?
The bible was recorded by men, not God who could easily define everything for you. Man 3000 years ago might not have been able to describe a volcanic eruption or tornado with the kind of vocabulary we have today.

 

[dpunk]

It's not void. I was listing things an omnipotent being could not do. The ball of mass was an example of one of the items. Was I wrong? No.

It is void because it cannot be applicable in our reality. For the situation to be possible, the omnipotent being would have to alter the foundation of reality.

As I said before, I don't think an omnipotent being can "perform actions that would disable him from performing other actions". Therefore, I don't think he could make himself "weaker".
But that aside, he wouldn't be making a being more powerful than he, he would be making a being with the same power.

Again, this situation is void in our reality. An omnipotent being can't perform an action that keeps itself from performing another action because there is no action that could. For there to be, the fabric of reality would have to be changed.

Nope. I don't believe "omnipotence" is on the spectrum, as it is infinite.

no power[----------------------------------------------O]all power
spectrum of power
<----lower-----------------------higher---->
O=omnipotence

That's my version lawl. Why do I suck at drawing...sigh

Yes, it might mean that. And that's certainly not impossible. And it's not flawed logic, it simply entails even more deep theology that we don't know about.

Lawl. If a God had to be mortal to be immortal, that would be like him having to achieve immortality. If he could achieve immortality and become all-powerful, why couldn't I?

And if misery is the stepping stone to happiness, would it be best to live without it? No.

I don't think that I've gone through much, if any, misery in my life, and I consider myself happy.

Infinite possibilities implies that anything is possible, which I don't believe is true, literally. Just think of any contradiction. He could not perform an action of inaction... he could create something that exists and simultaneously does not exist... etc.
I say such actions do not exist. And if an all-powerful being were to be able to create them, that'd imply the being of a disorderly, unresponsive, and possibly non-existent state. Which then would bring us to the questioning of our existence. This is why I am not certain a God exists. I am only as certain as I am about me sitting here and typing at this moment.

You think somewhat like I do. It's good to see that you haven't put yourself in a "room of mirrors" type of mindset with your beliefs.

 

[mitch12347]

seriously i say u stfu. uless u knon how we all got here then shut it, no one really wants to hear it.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Wow this made me laugh, so your saying that our whole wonderful Universe, humanity, emotions, are all just the product of some amount of chemical coincedences, that if something went slighty more different that the world could have been ruled by cow people.
That just proves how much of an ignorant conformist you are.
And couldn't all these natural happenings just be God at work, if he made the Earth then shouldn't he have had the knowledge that these things were real?
The bible was recorded by men, not God who could easily define everything for you. Man 3000 years ago might not have been able to describe a volcanic eruption or tornado with the kind of vocabulary we have today.

Thing is, emotions ARE just chemicals. That's why chemicals used in anti-depressants work.

 

[Spereff]

seriously i say u stfu. uless u knon how we all got here then shut it, no one really wants to hear it.

Actually, this whole section is just about debating, and members enjoy the discussion. We're here to debate this thread of the existance of God, and of course, we want to hear what each other has to say. You're sentence is poorly written and has no thought put into it.

We don't truly know if God exists, or not, but we can still stand here, and debate.

 

[ProudCheater]

can i ask you dumb asses one thing, if there isnt a god why you trying to debate it.

 

[Spereff]

can i ask you dumb asses one thing, if there isnt a god why you trying to debate it.

Proof? Evidence. Don't make remarks that don't prove anything.

"there isnt a god why you trying to debate it."

There's no support behind your theory. Care to back it up?

 

[Cruel__Machine]

It is void because it cannot be applicable in our reality. For the situation to be possible, the omnipotent being would have to alter the foundation of reality.

Exactly. And if this being cannot control reality, there are a great deal of things it cannot do, since there are still "rules" to abide by.

no power[----------------------------------------------O]all power
spectrum of power
<----lower-----------------------higher---->
O=omnipotence

That shows that there is a limited amount of power. For infinity cannot be charted on a finite scale.
But at least we agree that it's not possible for an "all-powerful" being (in the sense of the word you use) to exist.
But I still consider God to be that since there is no better term for description.

Lawl. If a God had to be mortal to be immortal, that would be like him having to achieve immortality. If he could achieve immortality and become all-powerful, why couldn't I?

Yes. And perhaps we do have the potential.
But that's just speculation, I have no real belief on the issue. I was merely posing the possibility that mortality may be need to achieve immortality after being questioned to why we, and this life, were created when it could've just been bypassed.

I don't think that I've gone through much, if any, misery in my life, and I consider myself happy.

Well, you cannot know happiness without knowing it's counterpart.
I was just saying that it's not necessarily true that the world would be best without misery.

 

[Fallen Soul]

Well all I have to say is, I feel sorry for you who do not believe in god. God in fact is real whether you parents beat him out of you or not. You try to tell us in your topic that a perfect thing can not create an imperfect thing. Thats the dumbest crock of shit I have ever heard. For the fact that he is perfect he can create something imperfect if he wanted. I don't think I have seen Satan brought up in this. Well to know the whole story and what this life is all about you must know all sides of the aspect. Why is Satan important? He was as most know the "Best Angel" He was basically gods right hand man. He took it to his head and figured he could be just as powerful as god so he rounded up other angels and god banished them from heaven. Thats the simple fast way to explain it. Well from there he created people that had free will. Satan tricked them to eat the apple they disobeyed god there for we are all sinners. So basically the point of life is basically a test in my mind, on whether we would rather do things our own way that most of the time lead the to the wrong things, or if we would be willing to use our lives for good and going down the path god has for us. Now you bring in lots of science up trying to prove god does not exist when like dorito said god isn't science. But when you do look at it from your aspect of using only human knowledge to explain things beyond human comprehension it is easy to see how you do not believe. But it is possible to use human knowledge to see that he is real. But you are looking in all the wrong places my friend such as text books and T.V.

I will continue this later I am going outside to hang out with my friends.

 

[dpunk]

Well all I have to say is, I feel sorry for you who do not believe in god. God in fact is real whether you parents beat him out of you or not.

I doubt many people's parents "beat" God out of them. Everyone I know who is religious has been heavily influenced by their parents to be so.

You try to tell us in your topic that a perfect thing can not create an imperfect thing. Thats the dumbest crock of shit I have ever heard. For the fact that he is perfect he can create something imperfect if he wanted.

The Bible even says that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree.

I don't think I have seen Satan brought up in this. Well to know the whole story and what this life is all about you must know all sides of the aspect. Why is Satan important? He was as most know the "Best Angel" He was basically gods right hand man. He took it to his head and figured he could be just as powerful as god so he rounded up other angels and god banished them from heaven. Thats the simple fast way to explain it. Well from there he created people that had free will. Satan tricked them to eat the apple they disobeyed god there for we are all sinners.

There are so many things I could say about that load of shit.

1. Satan is only important because it gives Christians an enemy. Satan is the cornerstone of the religion. If you didn't have a bad guy there would be no reason to turn to a good guy.

2. If we really are sinners it is because of God. God knew when he created us that we would disobey him and be damned to hell, had the means to stop it, and didn't. He knew when he made me that I would be an Atheist, knew how much information would be required to prove his existence, and didn't give it. If there is a God, then all of this is his fault.

So basically the point of life is basically a test in my mind, on whether we would rather do things our own way that most of the time lead the to the wrong things, or if we would be willing to use our lives for good and going down the path god has for us.

God doesn't need to test people since he is omniscient. A test entails that the giver of the test wants to see the results.

Now you bring in lots of science up trying to prove god does not exist when like dorito said god isn't science. But when you do look at it from your aspect of using only human knowledge to explain things beyond human comprehension it is easy to see how you do not believe. But it is possible to use human knowledge to see that he is real. But you are looking in all the wrong places my friend such as text books and T.V

Using the "God isn't science" argument is just a cop-out. The truth is that there is no evidence for the existence of a God. If such a God were to exist then there would be no doubt of his existence to everyone on the planet.

 

[stevenadrien2]

If we really are sinners it is because of God. God knew when he created us that we would disobey him and be damned to hell, had the means to stop it, and didn't. He knew when he made me that I would be an Atheist, knew how much information would be required to prove his existence, and didn't give it. If there is a God, then all of this is his fault.

Well you can't blame him for the choices you make. That's like saying, it's cause of my mum and dad that I drink and smoke weed all day, when infact it's just the choices you made.

God doesn't need to test people since he is omniscient. A test entails that the giver of the test wants to see the results

I know but you keep forgetting he let us have free will. With free will, he can see the outcome of every single decision we make in our lives. By giving us free will, he is putting us to the test and asking us "What will you choose my friend?"

It's just like when your parents let you hang out with your friends. Now has you might have noticed, I'm no theologian but think about it. Your friends could have a good or bad influence on you. Whether you follow those bad choices to do drugs or things like that is totally up to you, but your parents still trust you...

Then again, it might not be the same thing cause your parents are not like God, but God's love is greater then a father or a mother's love.

Once again, I'm no theologian, but I still tried to put my thinking into words.

Like someone said before, no matter how many proof you present, no one is really ever going to grow from this. No matter how hard you try, it's hard to keep your mind open on such a subject like this, where believing or not believing is just up to the experiences and things that the person has witnessed in their life..
And like no offense but it kinda gets on my nerves the way your like blaming God for everything, kinda sounds like you can't take responsibility for your actions.
Then again i might be totally wrong.
That's my 2 cents.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Well all I have to say is, I feel sorry for you who do not believe in god. God in fact is real whether you parents beat him out of you or not. You try to tell us in your topic that a perfect thing can not create an imperfect thing. Thats the dumbest crock of shit I have ever heard. For the fact that he is perfect he can create something imperfect if he wanted. I don't think I have seen Satan brought up in this. Well to know the whole story and what this life is all about you must know all sides of the aspect. Why is Satan important? He was as most know the "Best Angel" He was basically gods right hand man. He took it to his head and figured he could be just as powerful as god so he rounded up other angels and god banished them from heaven. Thats the simple fast way to explain it. Well from there he created people that had free will. Satan tricked them to eat the apple they disobeyed god there for we are all sinners. So basically the point of life is basically a test in my mind, on whether we would rather do things our own way that most of the time lead the to the wrong things, or if we would be willing to use our lives for good and going down the path god has for us. Now you bring in lots of science up trying to prove god does not exist when like dorito said god isn't science. But when you do look at it from your aspect of using only human knowledge to explain things beyond human comprehension it is easy to see how you do not believe. But it is possible to use human knowledge to see that he is real. But you are looking in all the wrong places my friend such as text books and T.V.

I will continue this later I am going outside to hang out with my friends.

1). You saying "You're just wrong" doesn't add much.

2). My parents are Catholics. I was brought up as such, and when my mind was capable enough, I realized the delusion spun around me. There was no "beating" of anything.

3). God knows the future, correct? If he knew Satan would revolt, why did he create him?

4). God creates us. He creates our minds, the circumstances when we have to choose between good and evil, etc. Since he knows everything, he knows EXACTLY what we will choose. Therefore, the test is not needed.

5). I think you are looking in the wrong places. Start with no assumptions. Clear your mind of all preconceived notions. What evidence do you see to support the theory of a God?

stevenadrian, all factors that lead to our making a decision, God creates. ANYTHING that would ever influence a decision we make, God knew would be there. Therefore, he knew what we would do.