Islam.

[Noam]

polabear345

I'm in between switching classes at the moment, but will respond to your post.

You are an American Muslim who has been brought up in a completely different culture than the majority of followers of Islam. Religion has caused more deaths than anything else on the planet and that's a fact.

No it's not. I'll post again as soon as I find the evidence I put up last time.

 

[Noam]

Religious leaders already do this! You have failed to address the fact that more people have died from religious strife then anything else. Good game..

No they haven't. More people died from WWI & II, disease, and old age than anything else. This is mostly because the total population is about 14 times larger than it was before ever since science started dominating over religion.

Simple calculation:
From 50,000 BC to 1 AD, the total world population EVER was about 1 billion people. Its safe to assume up to 50% of those died due to religion.

From 1 AD to 1800 AD, another 2 billion people. Of these, we'll assume 70% died of religion.

1800 AD to 2011 AD, about 9 Billion people existed. The vast majority existed from 1900 onwards. we'll assume that about 20% died of religion (probably a gross overestimate).

Total Religious Death: 3.5b
Total Nonreligious Death: 7.5b

Even accounting for significant errors, Nonreligious death obviously outnumbers religious death

Interestingly enough, this is the second time I need to show you this proof.

 

[Divine_God]

Interestingly enough, this is the second time I need to show you this proof.

I'm not accounting religion Vs all other deaths.


Religion has caused more death then any other singular thing.

Plus, its 100 times more pointless.

check mate.

 

[Psywar1]

He stated that nothing good has come from religion and I beg to differ. That had nothing to do with the Quron/Islam.

To stay SOMEWHAT relevant to the subject, I find it interesting how quick Muslims are to call the extremists "ridiculous" and "completely wrong". The fact that there's even content in your "Holy book" that's even CAPABLE of being, somewhat easily, completely and utterly "misread", such as they do, is enough for me to be wary of it.

I was talking about this specifically. Are you Christian? Because you should (following your logic) be equally wary of the Bible.

 

[polabear345]

I'm not accounting religion Vs all other deaths.


Religion has caused more death then any other singular thing.

Plus, its 100 times more pointless.

check mate.

If it wasn't for religion, our world would be in turmoil right now. The morals it has laid out have saved making from destruction. The human perception of morals are GREATLY affected by religion, even if a person is an athiest. I suggest you reconsider.

P.S. Read my post on page 3.

 

[Noam]

I'm not accounting religion Vs all other deaths.


Religion has caused more death then any other singular thing.

Plus, its 100 times more pointless.

check mate.

THat wasn't very clear in your original post, but I'll accept that. Religion may have killed more people than any other singular thing, but it is not completely pointless because without religion, bloodthirsty people would have to find a way to modify accepted morals to suit their desire to kill other people.

 

[Divine_God]

If it wasn't for religion, our world would be in turmoil right now. The morals it has laid out have saved making from destruction. The human perception of morals are GREATLY affected by religion, even if a person is an athiest. I suggest you reconsider.

P.S. Read my post on page 3.

I disagree that the world would be in complete turmoil.

Human morals / empathy do not come from religion, they come from humans.

THat wasn't very clear in your original post, but I'll accept that. Religion may have killed more people than any other singular thing, but it is not completely pointless because without religion, bloodthirsty people would have to find a way to modify accepted morals to suit their desire to kill other people.

Very contradicting, as more people have used religion as a way to modify accepted morals to kill people.

 

[polabear345]

Human morals / empathy do not come from religion, they come from humans.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hitler was a human I think? Human morals come from divine guidance and not from humans. Humans do not have the capacity to define their own moral structure to the extent that it needs to be defined and to the extent that is required to have a strong society. Yes, basic morals are instilled in humans because of the grace of God, and it is known as our conscience. Just as we are inherently intelligent to a certain extent and we have basic intelligence gifted to us as humans. Yet, you see people going to school.

Based on your logic, I declare that school is not necessary because humans already have intelligence. Do you see the flaw in this? Yes, we have intelligence; Yes we have morals, but we must expand on them both. The way to expand on intelligence is to go to school, learn, read books. The way to expand on morals is to understand God and listen to what He has commanded because he knows best for us.

If someone goes and tries to find answers to moral questions through, say science, then this world would be a very, very chaotic place. We would be killing all the old people in the world and justify it by saying that natural selection declares that the strong will survive and the weak will be destroyed.

But you notice that this does not happen in our society. This is because religion has influenced the way humans perceive things greatly and has secured the bonds of society. The only problem is when people go and try to achieve their own desires under the name of religion. This leads people like you to think that religion is the cause of great immorality and injustice. If you would look at this from another angle and try and understand the true reasons why religion is looked down upon so much these days, you would realise that it is not because of what the religion itself preaches, it is really because of the people that use the religion to justify their misdeeds.

- Take care, Pola.

 

[Ivy Bridge]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Hitler was a human I think? Human morals come from divine guidance and not from humans. Humans do not have the capacity to define their own moral structure to the extent that it needs to be defined and to the extent that is required to have a strong society. Yes, basic morals are instilled in humans because of the grace of God, and it is known as our conscience. Just as we are inherently intelligent to a certain extent and we have basic intelligence gifted to us as humans. Yet, you see people going to school.

Based on your logic, I declare that school is not necessary because humans already have intelligence. Do you see the flaw in this? Yes, we have intelligence; Yes we have morals, but we must expand on them both. The way to expand on intelligence is to go to school, learn, read books. The way to expand on morals is to understand God and listen to what He has commanded because he knows best for us.

If someone goes and tries to find answers to moral questions through, say science, then this world would be a very, very chaotic place. We would be killing all the old people in the world and justify it by saying that natural selection declares that the strong will survive and the weak will be destroyed.

But you notice that this does not happen in our society. This is because religion has influenced the way humans perceive things greatly and has secured the bonds of society. The only problem is when people go and try to achieve their own desires under the name of religion. This leads people like you to think that religion is the cause of great immorality and injustice. If you would look at this from another angle and try and understand the true reasons why religion is looked down upon so much these days, you would realise that it is not because of what the religion itself preaches, it is really because of the people that use the religion to justify their misdeeds.

- Take care, Pola.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views

I don't get the relevance of Hitler. He had a Christian upbringing, therefore by your logic he should have been well instilled with a good moral standing. Even throughout his adult life he made references to a God in his speeches and his book, so his views are relatively questionable.

Religion is in no way the necessary evil you're making it out to be. Morality is nothing something defined by religion of any divine being, unless you can prove otherwise. I am an atheist that has been able to consciously decide on my own what is right and what is wrong. Just because you need a concept of 'Hell' to push you towards being a good person does not mean that everyone does. This leaves me to wonder who the 'good' people really are. If I can be a 'good' person without motivation, does this not make my actions truer/purer, and therefore more meaningful?

 

[polabear345]

I don't get the relevance of Hitler.

Hitler was relevant to my post because I was proving this statement:

Human morals / empathy do not come from religion, they come from humans.

To be false. If you put what I said into context, you would have seen my meaning.

He had a Christian upbringing, therefore by your logic he should have been well instilled with a good moral standing. Even throughout his adult life he made references to a God in his speeches and his book, so his views are relatively questionable.

This is exactly my point. He did not follow the teachings of Christianity, rather he used the name of Christianity to try and justify his actions. Please read my entire post before quoting and asking about it. Half of that post was explaining that the humans that use religion for their own personal gains are not to be classed as the representatives of the teachings of that religion.

Religion is in no way the necessary evil you're making it out to be. Morality is nothing something defined by religion of any divine being, unless you can prove otherwise.

I certainly can. Not from the Bible or the Torah, they have been adulterated.

I am an atheist that has been able to consciously decide on my own what is right and what is wrong.

The problem with this, friend, is that when everyone goes and tries to decide what is right and wrong on their own, the results can be chaotic. Do you think Hitler thought he was wrong in trying to eliminate all the Jews? No, he thought he was doing a good thing. When a book of religion is adulterated and its morals skewed, it is easy to point a finger at religions in general and declare them false. Anyway, back to my point. Hitler decided for himself what was right and what was wrong. Had he been more open to divine guidance, the holocaust would never have taken place. If you, or anyone else, try and devise your own set of morals, you are subject to contributing to the destruction of society. Let's take Rome as an example. The reason why Rome fell was down to Religious intolerance and Roman inflexibility for the most part. Now, if they had consulted the true religious book, they would have seen that they were in the wrong and they would be doing damage to their own society.

Just because you need a concept of 'Hell' to push you towards being a good person does not mean that everyone does. This leaves me to wonder who the 'good' people really are. If I can be a 'good' person without motivation, does this not make my actions truer/purer, and therefore more meaningful?

Firstly, You have left out 'Heaven.'

Secondly, God has not created mankind for hell. The point of life is to become a better person and a happier person. With that, one gains heaven. If one deviates and damages his soul, he will go to hell.

Life is a test. Let us compare it with a test. If your teacher gave you a final exam and the exam was worth 50% of your entire grade for that year and would impact future success, would you try your best to get as high a mark as you could? Yes you would. Similarly, the concept of heaven drives a person to do better in life and achieve their maximum potential. The concept of heaven is the same as the concept as failing a test. If you fail that essential test, you know that your future will be destroyed and you will be a failure in later life. Thus, this is also motivation that drives a person to do the best they can and be the best they can be.

Motivation is necessary for all aspects in life, friend, as is human nature. No meaningful action is ever committed without motivation that drives it. Would you work if you didn't get paid? Would you help others if you didn't feel good because of it? No. Motivation is an essential part of life and every action of a human being revolves around motivation, so to say that someone can be a good person without motivation is a hollow claim, as the motivation for being a good person would be to feel good for yourself. As I said earlier, if you did not feel good after helping a person through some sort of hardship or struggle, you would never do it. We have an innate good feeling when we help other creation though, by the mercy of God, and the aim of true religion is to attain the highest good feeling there is in existence. Submission to God and His will brings about that feeling, making one happy and content, even when on his own deathbed. An atheist on his deathbed would be very upset that the only life he has and supposedly will ever have is over. If anything, religion brings about happiness.

There are three types of believers:

1. The one who obeys God out of fear of His punishment.
2. The one who obeys God out of desire for His reward.
3. The one who obeys God because he recognises the immense blessing He has given us with this beautiful existence and given us countless blessings. He obeys God for the sake of the love of God.

The third one is of the highest achievement.

I hope this cleared a few things up. Please do not take anything I have said offensively as that was not my intention. I meant to help you understand my point of view on this topic. Take care!

-Pola

 

[SexayMistahBee]

Honestly, I think that Islam is a misunderstood religion.
Thank all those terrorists defacing it :/

 

[Herman Li]

Believing in any religion is stupid imo, but I think some religion's core principles are good. I don't know too much a bout Islam however.

 

[Deadmau5]

Wooh, I love it when theist vs. theist battles turn to theist vs. atheist. It's actually much more entertaining than watching an Xbox vs. PS3 flame war.

 

[polabear345]

Wooh, I love it when theist vs. theist battles turn to theist vs. atheist. It's actually much more entertaining than watching an Xbox vs. PS3 flame war.

That's because we aren't just quoting specs or arguing over something that is such a small issue that it will die out within a few decades. This is heavy stuff

Believing in any religion is stupid imo, but I think some religion's core principles are good. I don't know too much a bout Islam however.

If you don't know too much about it, then why call the people believing in it stupid? It's like saying that I don't know too much about sports but anyone who plays them is stupid (implying that it is non-beneficial). If I go further in-depth and research about sports, I will find that they keep me healthy and are good for my body. I wouldn't think that anyone who plays sports is stupid then. So don't say that believing in any religion is stupid if you have minimal knowledge about it.

I mean you no offence, I just wanted to show you that you may be offending others on a baseless claim. Have an amazing day, friend.

Take care

-Pola

 

[Sypherz]

I think that it has really good values. Just like manyy other religions. i do understand that it's a bit more strict. It's just a shame that extremists have ruined the world's view on the religion.

 

[polabear345]

Honestly, I think that Islam is a misunderstood religion.
Thank all those terrorists defacing it :/

I think that it has really good values. Just like manyy other religions. i do understand that it's a bit more strict. It's just a shame that extremists have ruined the world's view on the religion.

At least you both understand, to some extent, what Islam is and why it is portrayed in the light that it is in the West. Some people don't even understand, or haven't researched in the least, and still slander it and oppose it because the media influences them to.

You two seem more open minded than most, so keep that up, it will get you places. Never be quick to judge, as this can be a fatal flaw in one's character.

 

[rstrader1471]

I went to my university library and looked up the quotes in the Quran myself.

they are there, fuck off.


Edit:





I'm sorry, but you're a fucking idiot. take one look at Europe and tell me that Muslims aren't trying to take over. THEY ARE ENFORCING SHARIA LAW IN SMALL PARTS OF EUROPE.

Liberal dumbfucks such as yourself don't understand the world as it really its. It's not all flowers and daisy's.

LMAO, that the best you got? Bullshit? Also, you didn't respond to my comments apart from where you got your info from. Dumbass who believes all he reads without researching more much? YES!

 

[polabear345]

LMAO, that the best you got? Bullshit? Also, you didn't respond to my comments apart from where you got your info from. Dumbass who believes all he reads without researching more much? YES!

Please do not flame; anger is the greatest barrier that stands in the way of understanding. A Muslim should not talk in this manner. Try and talk politely and if you don't agree with someone's point of view, don't try and prove them wrong by cussing them out, use logic and be respectful when you speak.

 

[malakadang]

If you don't know too much about it, then why call the people believing in it stupid? It's like saying that I don't know too much about sports but anyone who plays them is stupid (implying that it is non-beneficial). If I go further in-depth and research about sports, I will find that they keep me healthy and are good for my body. I wouldn't think that anyone who plays sports is stupid then. So don't say that believing in any religion is stupid if you have minimal knowledge about it.

Comparing religion and sports are two extremely different things.

A sport, let's say, football is an activity you partake in. A religion too, can be considered this way, wherein you partake in praying and the customs accompanied by said religion. Sports end there, Religion does not.

In order to partake in most religions, you must necessarily believe in a God. In order to partake in a sport you need no such belief. It is the belief in the God that some people may refer to as stupid, not partaking in an activity for which your comparison only extends to.


I don't really need any knowledge about Islam, or any religion at all that believes in an omnipotent and omniscient God. I'll explain why. If you cannot prove, or put forward a preponderance of evidence in support of the existence of a God, then your whole religion necessarily fails.

Mohammed is a prophet, correct? I'm assuming that his words were the message of God, ergo, the Koran the message of God. If you cannot prove the existence of a God, then I can only conclude that Mohammed is talking smack. (No disrespect) For example, If someone told me a secret, and then another person confronted me asking me who told me said secret, and I responded that person x did, If person x does not exist, then I'm talking bull shit.

So, it doesn't matter at all what the Koran says, anyone can still have a debate about said religion as the root node of it all is God, and if you cannot prove the existence of God anything as a resultant of said God cannot be taken seriously on the grounds of the Former; God's word.

Now, why do some people refer to some religious followers as stupid? It's harsh, but it's not entirely baseless. Imagine if someone believed in the existence of Faeries? Perhaps Santa Clause? I'm sure you'd probably laugh at them if they genuinely believe in such beings, much like some people would laugh at you for believing in God.

Some people do have seemingly good justifications for their belief. The bulk do not. Please justify your belief in God and the comment of you being 'stupid' will probably be revoked, so long as your justification is reasonable.

 

[Jimmy]

Let's take Rome as an example. The reason why Rome fell was down to Religious intolerance and Roman inflexibility for the most part. Now, if they had consulted the true religious book, they would have seen that they were in the wrong and they would be doing damage to their own society.

And what book would that have been? When the Western Empire fell, it had officially adopted Christianity and Islam did not yet exist.

Life is a test.

It's a test of different lengths, of different difficulties, to people of different abilities, with the rules of the test never being laid out for everybody.

As I said earlier, if you did not feel good after helping a person through some sort of hardship or struggle, you would never do it.

People die to save others; the dead are incapable of "feeling good."

If you don't know too much about it, then why call the people believing in it stupid? It's like saying that I don't know too much about sports but anyone who plays them is stupid (implying that it is non-beneficial). If I go further in-depth and research about sports, I will find that they keep me healthy and are good for my body. I wouldn't think that anyone who plays sports is stupid then. So don't say that believing in any religion is stupid if you have minimal knowledge about it.

Except you think all the unbelievers will go to hell and suffer eternally, correct? That's stupid.