Would society be better off without religion?

[ytrewq]

But morals don't define right and wrong. If I don't have a problem with murder, does that make it perfectly acceptable for me to kill someone?

 

[Divine_God]

Obviously not.


But you are saying that religion says what's right and wrong, which is wrong.

 

[ytrewq]

Obviously not.


But you are saying that religion says what's right and wrong, which is wrong.

If you believe in a religion (personally, Christianity), then it does define what is right and wrong, and if that religion is correct, then it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not - it still defines right and wrong.

As far as I can tell, you are saying that because you don't believe in a religion, said religious beliefs cannot define right and wrong. I'm sorry, but you are not the ultimate authority.

 

[Divine_God]

If you believe in a religion (personally, Christianity), then it does define what is right and wrong, and if that religion is correct, then it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not - it still defines right and wrong.

As far as I can tell, you are saying that because you don't believe in a religion, said religious beliefs cannot define right and wrong. I'm sorry, but you are not the ultimate authority.

There is no point in arguing with you if you're going to say im not the ultimate authority. Technically I fucking am the ultimate authority. If i have free will then god has given me the authority to define my fate and life. I can decide what is right and wrong because I have free will. Omnipotent beings don't need a right and wrong, nor do they need to be worshiped.


We're getting off subject. Which is, would society be better off without religion. The ignorance you illustrate in your posts show, that yes, without religion society would be better.

 

[ytrewq]

My point, concisely: Society would not be better off without religion, because without religion, then there is no absolute right and wrong; instead, people create their own "morals," according to what suits them best, which may or may not be beneficial to everyone.

 

[Divine_God]

Religious leaders already do this! You have failed to address the fact that more people have died from religious strife then anything else. Good game..

 

[ytrewq]

Now you are the one getting off the topic. That is completely irrelevant to my argument, and yet you think it is the clincher.

But you'll complain if I don't address it. Oh wait, I already did:

Of course, religion has often been the cause of evil and conflict, but once again, that because of man's fallen nature.

Edit (clarification): Originally, there was perfect harmony between man and God, but man sinned and broke the relationship... (I'm guessing you know the gist of the Creation story). Because of that, the relationship is flawed, and man pursues his own desires. In an attempt to pacify the belief in a more powerful being, and because they had rebelled against God, man eventually invented other religions to satisfy themselves, many of which became harmful. Of course, Christianity has often been distorted as well, and I certainly won't deny that terrible things have been done in the name of the Christian church. <-- Why religion causes conflict

And since you argue that there is no right or wrong, how can you say if society is "better off." Better is also completely arbitrary without absolute standards, so the answer is completely up to the individual, and whatever they say is right for them?

I believe that we have/will come to an impasse, since I believe in an absolute right and wrong, and you believe that everything is objective (although you misinterpret the meaning of free will, I realize that you are using that as a justification in response to my argument, not because that is your primary cause for your beliefs).

 

[Divine_God]

How is mass genocide of human beings who make up society's "off subject"?.


I never said there is no right or wrong, Men has made that and uses laws to enforce what people believe is right or wrong.

Every religion starts off with man being bad and them owing something to god ( in most cases the church ) and you must repent or you will go into eternal hellfire. Scare tactics is ( in psychology ) level 1 of the morality scale, and since most religious people seem to be operating on this level, maybe religion is needed to scare these incompetent people into behaving.

Oh wait, they are easy to manipulate and can be pushed into committing mass genocide because their Pope said so.

 

[ytrewq]

How is mass genocide of human beings who make up society's "off subject"?.


I never said there is no right or wrong, Men has made that and uses laws to enforce what people believe is right or wrong.

Every religion starts off with man being bad and them owing something to god ( in most cases the church ) and you must repent or you will go into eternal hellfire. Scare tactics is ( in psychology ) level 1 of the morality scale, and since most religious people seem to be operating on this level, maybe religion is needed to scare these incompetent people into behaving.

Oh wait, they are easy to manipulate and can be pushed into committing mass genocide because their Pope said so.

Perhaps you posted before I finished editing? And I'm not sure where you got "Every religion starts off with man being bad and them owing something to god."

 

[CheeseyChicken]

Ofcourse it would be, no wars and disputes over religion it's an evident yes, but you can't deny people of there beliefs.

 

[Services Galore]

IF we're talking that Religion NEVER existed my answer is. Uhh...Yes.

What has religion done in the long run to the world.
Wars, corruption, murders, etc. I mean Scientology? Are you fucking serious?

And for faith. If there was no concept of faith, that a higher force is somehow watching over you, or that you have faith in some sort of concept, what else would we have? Hell I have no idea, but I guarantee you it would be better than faith. Faith can be a hurtful idea. Have faith that everything will be okay, and then when it's not and you're wondering why your god abandoned you? Then you lose everything. Yet I will agree when it does have some sort of positive influence It's a great idea, honestly. It's a nice feeling to sometimes feel like something is helping you out, maybe not a god, maybe you don't even know what it is. But sometimes it can help even the most atheistic person.

I personally hate religion, but faith is not just a religious belief. Or doesn't have to be at least.

Yet I just think Religion fucked way to many things up to do any good.
Brainwashing, bullshit money schemes. They tried to say the sun revolved around the earth, we're proven wrong and said something like "Oh, oops, we weren't actually serious. God was JKing" Galileo wins that one.

The Crusades? Thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people died to fight over a wall of stone. Yeah okay they believe it was for god, but they killed so many innocent people simply because "God willed it." If you were a high ranking priest/Crusader/King/etc you could kill someone simply because you say "God wills it."

Idk. I personally think we'd be WAY better off if it never happened.

If we're talking about just abolishing it as of now with the idea still in peoples minds. Like making it world wide, illegal. Then no, that would be very bad lol.
Riots, underground cults, murders, looting and theft, governments collapsing, etc.

 

[Noam]

The only thing really holding many countries like the US together is Religion.
Granted, it's also the only thing holding lots of countries like Iraq and Iran together, but they have just as much of a right as anybody else.

The scale of civil wars without religion to keep it all together would be massive.

Overall though, the positive effects and the negative effects of religion are pretty balanced out by themselves, so no worry.

 

[Noam]

IF we're talking that Religion NEVER existed my answer is. Uhh...Yes.

What has religion done in the long run to the world.
Wars, corruption, murders, etc. I mean Scientology? Are you fucking serious?

And for faith. If there was no concept of faith, that a higher force is somehow watching over you, or that you have faith in some sort of concept, what else would we have? Hell I have no idea, but I guarantee you it would be better than faith. Faith can be a hurtful idea. Have faith that everything will be okay, and then when it's not and you're wondering why your god abandoned you? Then you lose everything. Yet I will agree when it does have some sort of positive influence It's a great idea, honestly. It's a nice feeling to sometimes feel like something is helping you out, maybe not a god, maybe you don't even know what it is. But sometimes it can help even the most atheistic person.

I personally hate religion, but faith is not just a religious belief. Or doesn't have to be at least.

Yet I just think Religion fucked way to many things up to do any good.
Brainwashing, bullshit money schemes. They tried to say the sun revolved around the earth, we're proven wrong and said something like "Oh, oops, we weren't actually serious. God was JKing" Galileo wins that one.

The Crusades? Thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people died to fight over a wall of stone. Yeah okay they believe it was for god, but they killed so many innocent people simply because "God willed it." If you were a high ranking priest/Crusader/King/etc you could kill someone simply because you say "God wills it."

Idk. I personally think we'd be WAY better off if it never happened.

If we're talking about just abolishing it as of now with the idea still in peoples minds. Like making it world wide, illegal. Then no, that would be very bad lol.
Riots, underground cults, murders, looting and theft, governments collapsing, etc.

Why do you say that? Religion is about as old as human history itself (IMO, the only reason there even is human history is because of religion). In fact, many of the older religions functioned instead of science perfectly well. EG. Ancient egyptian religion contains some of the richest medical knoweledge ever. The excuse for religion may have been god(s), but the priests often functioned mor as scientists than as anything else.

 

[Noam]

Religious leaders already do this! You have failed to address the fact that more people have died from religious strife then anything else. Good game..

No they haven't. More people died from WWI & II, disease, and old age than anything else. This is mostly because the total population is about 14 times larger than it was before ever since science started dominating over religion.

Simple calculation:
From 50,000 BC to 1 AD, the total world population EVER was about 1 billion people. Its safe to assume up to 50% of those died due to religion.

From 1 AD to 1800 AD, another 2 billion people. Of these, we'll assume 70% died of religion.

1800 AD to 2011 AD, about 9 Billion people existed. The vast majority existed from 1900 onwards. we'll assume that about 20% died of religion (probably a gross overestimate).

Total Religious Death: 3.5b
Total Nonreligious Death: 7.5b

Even accounting for significant errors, Nonreligious death obviously outnumbers religious death

 

[malakadang]

No they haven't. More people died from WWI & II, disease, and old age than anything else. This is mostly because the total population is about 14 times larger than it was before ever since science started dominating over religion.

Simple calculation:
From 50,000 BC to 1 AD, the total world population EVER was about 1 billion people. Its safe to assume up to 50% of those died due to religion.

From 1 AD to 1800 AD, another 2 billion people. Of these, we'll assume 70% died of religion.

1800 AD to 2011 AD, about 9 Billion people existed. The vast majority existed from 1900 onwards. we'll assume that about 20% died of religion (probably a gross overestimate).

Total Religious Death: 3.5b
Total Nonreligious Death: 7.5b

Even accounting for significant errors, Nonreligious death obviously outnumbers religious death

I'd like to point out the flaw in your statistics.

Death and disease are natural, and unstoppable. With, or without religion, you will not stop death, and plague will continue to manifest. From my knowledge, no more than 200 million people were purged from existence in both World Wars.

Factoring Death, and Disease as a non-religious cause is folly, as both are irrevocable even if only religion where to exist.

 

[Sweet Action]

Think about all the suicides there would be without religion!!

 

[ytrewq]

Think about all the suicides there would be without religion!!

Made me think of a character in "The Possessed" who is trying to determine why so few commit suicide (reading it right now).

 

[Divine_God]

Think about all the suicides there would be without religion!!

Why?.....



People would understand that this is their one and only life and live it to it's fullest rather then throwing it away because they don't know about a magician who made them in 7 days.

 

[ytrewq]

Let me see if I can find the passage about the man I was referring to in The Possessed.

 

[ytrewq]

Let me see if I can find the passage about the man I was referring to in The Possessed.

"He invented that about heads himself out of a book, and told me first
himself, and understands badly. But I only seek the causes why men
dare not kill themselves; that's all. And it's all no matter."
"How do you mean they don't dare? Are there so few suicides?"
"Very few."
"Do you really think so?"
He made no answer, got up, and began walking to and fro lost in
thought.
"What is it restrains people from suicide, do you think?" I asked.
He looked at me absent-mindedly, as though trying to remember what
we were talking about.
"I … I don't know much yet… . Two prejudices restrain them, two
things; only two, one very little, the other very big."
"What is the little thing?"
"Pain."
. . .
"Well, and the second cause, the big one?"
"The other world!"
"You mean punishment?"
"That's no matter. The other world; only the other world."
"Are there no atheists, such as don't believe in the other world at all?"
Again he did not answer.
"You judge from yourself, perhaps."
"Every one cannot judge except from himself," he said, reddening.
"There will be full freedom when it will be just the same to live or not to
live. That's the goal for all."
"The goal? But perhaps no one will care to live then?"
"No one," he pronounced with decision.
"Man fears death because he loves life. That's how I understand it," I
observed, "and that's determined by nature."
"That's abject; and that's where the deception comes in." His eyes
flashed. "Life is pain, life is terror, and man is unhappy. Now all is pain
and terror. Now man loves life, because he loves pain and terror, and so
they have done according. Life is given now for pain and terror, and
that's the deception. Now man is not yet what he will be. There will be a
new man, happy and proud. For whom it will be the same to live or not
to live, he will be the new man. He who will conquer pain and terror will
himself be a god. And this God will not be."
"Then this God does exist according to you?"
"He does not exist, but He is. In the stone there is no pain, but in the
fear of the stone is the pain. God is the pain of the fear of death. He who
will conquer pain and terror will become himself a god. Then there will
be a new life, a new man; everything will be new … then they will divide
history into two parts: from the gorilla to the annihilation of God, and
from the annihilation of God to … "
"To the gorilla?"
"… To the transformation of the earth, and of man physically. Man
will be God, and will be transformed physically, and the world will be
transformed and things will be transformed and thoughts and all feelings.
What do you think: will man be changed physically then?"
"If it will be just the same living or not living, all will kill themselves,
and perhaps that's what the change will be?"
"That's no matter. They will kill deception. Every one who wants the
supreme freedom must dare to kill himself. He who dares to kill himself
has found out the secret of the deception. There is no freedom beyond;
that is all, and there is nothing beyond. He who dares kill himself is God.
Now every one can do so that there shall be no God and shall be nothing.
But no one has once done it yet."
"There have been millions of suicides."
"But always not for that; always with terror and not for that object. Not
to kill fear. He who kills himself only to kill fear will become a god at
once."
"He won't have time, perhaps," I observed.
"That's no matter," he answered softly, with calm pride, almost disdain.

A bit long, to give it context, but the most relevant part is underlined.
I'm not arguing that this is true, but it is one suggestion of how religion prevents suicide. If you want more context, there are plenty of PDFs online.