Is it okay for parents to hit their children?

[Dracon]

You're the one who stated that hitting your child leads to educational collapse. I merely hinted that the race that uses corporal punishment the most, has the highest educational rankings in the world. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

Drinking bleach will give off the same effect to everyone. It's a fact that it's not okay to drink it.

That is the difference between objective and subjective. The without a doubt feeling.

The organizations that make a living on researching this shit seem to agree: http://www.apa.org/about/policy/corporal-punishment.aspx

 

The organizations that make a living on researching this shit seem to agree: http://www.apa.org/about/policy/corporal-punishment.aspx

Tends, seems, intended, considerable, and may are words used throughout that briefing. These words are subjective and are not definite.

The American Psychological Association is the largest scientific and professional organization representing psychology in the United States, with more than 122,500 researchers, educators, clinicians, consultants and students as its members.

The United States isn't exactly the best representative to reflect the disdain of corporal punishment. Why? Well the country's poverty rate is through the roof, the incarceration rate is mind boggling, and drug trafficking is rampant. I wonder if any of this can be somehow related.

Hmmm

Really makes you think about the indirect ties.

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

You're the one who stated that hitting your child leads to educational collapse. I merely hinted that the race that uses corporal punishment the most, has the highest educational rankings in the world. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

Drinking bleach will give off the same effect to everyone. It's a fact that it's not okay to drink it.

That is the difference between objective and subjective. The without a doubt feeling.

Yeah and I provided evidence for my argument. So burden of proof satisfied. I never said it lead to educational collapse either, you just did. I said it lead to less grey matter and that's been proven.

So you're saying you don't believe there is a placebo effect because it doesn't affect everyone? LOL.

 

[tMoon]

Was skimming through the thread and I don't know if this ended up being addressed, but:

If no good comes out of hitting your child, why is it legal in all 50 states? Why is there no movement to abolish such things? Because It's not ideal or realistic.

You're wrong. State laws differ all throughout the country, but there are states where you are not allowed to hit your children. Anything more than a "firm" 1-hit spanking could be considered child abuse.

Things have changed, even from corporal punishment being no longer allowed in schools, to how parents are suppose to handle their kids going out and playing. There has been significant change on the front of how parents should raise their kids (ex: the parents in Maryland whose children were picked up by police for walking home alone from a park a few blocks away).

Attempting to generalize laws across the country does not work unless it's a federal law. State laws offer vary drastically across the country (ex: ID laws, Marijuana Laws, Alcohol consumption under 21, you name it).

Edit: The "progressive era" for topics such as this is not now, but the 80's and 90's. That is when laws started changing towards domestic violence, etc. Progressive issues of today are generally along the terms of sexuality (but also feminism, and more recently racism).



Oh, and regarding the comments about asians, high achieving, and being hit. You can achieve high marks and still have a very bad mental health. I am not asian, but I was a 4.0 student in high school and my mental health was lacking (to say the least).

 

Yeah and I provided evidence for my argument. So burden of proof satisfied. I never said it lead to educational collapse either, you just did. I said it lead to less grey matter and that's been proven.

So you're saying you don't believe there is a placebo effect because it doesn't affect everyone? LOL.

Where is the evidence?

You didn't provide proof that hitting children results in "educational success."

Can you please provide evidence showing that hitting your child will result in educational collapse? This evidence needs to be universal, not only applicable to America. America is ranked 14th in education so naturally scores will be underwhelming.

Why is the placebo effect relevant here?

Was skimming through the thread and I don't know if this ended up being addressed, but:



You're wrong. State laws differ all throughout the country, but there are states where you are not allowed to hit your children. Anything more than a "firm" 1-hit spanking could be considered child abuse.

Things have changed, even from corporal punishment being no longer allowed in schools, to how parents are suppose to handle their kids going out and playing. There has been significant change on the front of how parents should raise their kids (ex: the parents in Maryland whose children were picked up by police for walking home alone from a park a few blocks away).

Attempting to generalize laws across the country does not work unless it's a federal law. State laws offer vary drastically across the country (ex: ID laws, Marijuana Laws, Alcohol consumption under 21, you name it).

Edit: The "progressive era" for topics such as this is not now, but the 80's and 90's. That is when laws started changing towards domestic violence, etc. Progressive issues of today are generally along the terms of sexuality (but also feminism, and more recently racism).



Oh, and regarding the comments about asians, high achieving, and being hit. You can achieve high marks and still have a very bad mental health. I am not asian, but I was a 4.0 student in high school and my mental health was lacking (to say the least).

"Hitting" is not illegal. There are restrictions, yes, I already know this, but hitting is again not illegal.

Asian culture shows the parents taking branches/twigs off of trees and slashing their child when they would come home with a B. This is a bit extreme and over the top, but it works. In America, we're much more slight in comparison, yet develop an effect that is worse than the counterpart. This means that they're other factors to look at here.

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

Where is the evidence?



Can you please provide evidence showing that hitting your child will result in educational collapse? This evidence needs to be universal, not only applicable to America. America is ranked 14th in education so naturally scores will be underwhelming.

Why is the placebo effect relevant here?

I've shown you the evidence. I never said it created an educational collapse. And it's obvious why the placebo effect is relevant. It was a comparison to your argument.

And now I've finally concluded that you are either stupid, or attempting to boost your post count, or are so immature you won't admit you have no argument, or are afraid of your own emotions towards the effects your parents beating you, or are simply not reading any responses to your posts.

I've countered everything you've said to boredom. Have fun in ignorance LOL.

 

I've shown you the evidence. I never said it created an educational collapse. And it's obvious why the placebo effect is relevant. It was a comparison to your argument.

And now I've finally concluded that you are either stupid, or attempting to boost your post count, or are so immature you won't admit you have no argument, or are afraid of your own emotions towards the effects your parents beating you, or are simply not reading any responses to your posts.

I've countered everything you've said to boredom. Have fun in ignorance LOL.

Can you tell me why the placebo effect is relevant? Saying it's obvious, yet not giving a reason why is vacuous and trying to escape specifying your point. It was a comparison to my argument, yet I have no idea what comparison you were trying to make.

Weren't you the one who said you are done replying to me? So exactly who is trying to gain post count here? Your inability to explain your points is exhausting, especially when I'm refuting them all.

You said hitting a child affects their learning ability, but to what degree? Because as I've said numerous times, in Asian culture, the learning curve is much higher than that of America. There are a bunch of factors to consider here.

Example; http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/ability-to-learn-is-affected-by-the-12-03-24/

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

Can you tell me why the placebo effect is relevant? Saying it's obvious, yet not giving a reason why is vacuous and trying to escape specifying your point. It was a comparison to my argument, yet I have no idea what comparison you were trying to make.

Weren't you the one who said you are done replying to me? So exactly who is trying to gain post count here? Your inability to explain your points is exhausting, especially when I'm refuting them all.

You said hitting a child affects their learning ability, but to what degree? Because as I've said numerous times, in Asian culture, the learning curve is much higher than that of America. There are a bunch of factors to consider here.

Example; http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/ability-to-learn-is-affected-by-the-12-03-24/

The answer to literally everything you've asked I've already posted. You've refuted nothing. Good try bud. Please refer back to previous posts for the answers to these questions.

It's funny you say I'm "escaping" after you've skirted 90% of the things I've said to just repeat the same things you've already said and I've countered. Every "point" you have at your disposal I've already countered.

I've already explained why the placebo effect is relevant to countering your previous point. You said if it doesn't apply to everyone you don't think it's true. I said the placebo effect doesn't apply to everyone so it must not exist according to your logic. Making me repeat myself because you have no real argument.

That article you posted has no relation to the subject we're discussing, same with the last article you posted. Your posts are so ridiculously stupid it intrigues me to keep posting. LOL

 

The answer to literally everything you've asked I've already posted. You've refuted nothing. Good try bud. Please refer back to previous posts for the answers to these questions.

It's funny you say I'm "escaping" after you've skirted 90% of the things I've said to just repeat the same things you've already said and I've countered. Every "point" you have at your disposal I've already countered.

I've already explained why the placebo effect is relevant to countering your previous point. You said if it doesn't apply to everyone you don't think it's true. I said the placebo affect doesn't apply to everyone so it must not exist according to your logic. Making me repeat myself because you have no real argument.

That article you posted has no relation to the subject we're discussing, same with the last article you posted. Your posts are so ridiculously stupid it intrigues me to keep posting. LOL

Placebo effect is a medical treatment. I'm talking about the causation of getting hit. Both are entirely different and not relevant to this discussion. Almost all medical treatments give different effects.

If something is factual, an inevitable event is to occur. Which is why it's okay to hit your kid because there is no factual evidence stating otherwise.

I gave the example of drinking bleach. Anyone who drinks undiluted, will get the same effect.

That article you posted has no relation to the subject we're discussing, same with the last article you posted. Your posts are so ridiculously stupid it intrigues me to keep posting. LOL

http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/ability-to-learn-is-affected-by-the-12-03-24/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/26/nat-geo-sleep-survey_n_6219272.html

Read those articles in order. First one says your learning ability is affected by the amount of sleep you get. The next article supports that by saying Americans barely get any sleep. This also supports why America is ranked 14th in education.

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

Placebo effect is a medical treatment. I'm talking about the causation of getting hit. Both are entirely different and not relevant to this discussion. Almost all medical treatments give different effects.

If something is factual, an inevitable event is to occur. Which is why it's okay to hit your kid because there is no factual evidence stating otherwise.

I gave the example of drinking bleach. Anyone who drinks undiluted, will get the same effect.

It doesn't matter what the comparison is to. My point stands. Just because something doesn't affect everyone the same doesn't mean it doesn't exist and affect people.

According to the research hitting children always does result in negative result, but not to the same degree every time. Since obviously all children and scenarios are different.

Like I've repeatedly said. This article links multiple studies and you can find more online. This is all evidence enough. Hitting children does result in negative outcomes worthy of saying that it's bad.

EDIT: That's great that you linked a couple articles about SLEEPING. LOL. Great job, but oh wait, we're speaking about hitting children and it's negative effects. Shoot, try again.

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

Who said it doesn't exist and affect people? Where are you getting this from?

You did. By saying that there's no negative effects of hitting your children and then trying to support that claim by saying it's because it doesn't affect everyone the same.

READ WHAT YOU'RE POSTING. YOU'RE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF.

Actually no I'm not. Just because it doesn't result in a certain amount of negative effects every time doesn't mean they don't see negative effects every time. YOU READ WHAT I'M SAYING.

The proof of the "evidence" you're showing me is entirely subjective. I can easily make the assessment that the base of which the research conducted with is minimal and only relevant to a specific area with different environments surrounding each person evaluated. Please get the gist of this already.

No it's not subjective. And you are a hypocrit for claiming that it is. You just linked two articles about sleeping that use similar methods for reaching a conclusion. You think that your assessment means jack **** compared to the proof they're providing? No it doesn't.

Once again you fail to understand the purpose of why I linked those articles. It's to prove that there isn't a straightforward reason as to why the learning ability of kids getting hit in America is abysmal, and other areas of the world is contrary to that.

I didn't fail to understand. It's just so stupid of a logical connection that it's irrelevant. Let's use your example. If you drink bleach(hitting children) and gasoline(sleep issues etc), just because you prove gasoline(sleep) is causing issues, it doesn't disprove that the bleach is harming you as well.

 

It doesn't matter what the comparison is to. My point stands. Just because something doesn't affect everyone the same doesn't mean it doesn't exist and affect people.

According to the research hitting children always does result in negative result, but not to the same degree every time. Since obviously all children and scenarios are different.

Like I've repeatedly said. This article links multiple studies and you can find more online. This is all evidence enough. Hitting children does result in negative outcomes worthy of saying that it's bad.

EDIT: That's great that you linked a couple articles about SLEEPING. LOL. Great job, but oh wait, we're speaking about hitting children and it's negative effects. Shoot, try again.

"Just because something doesn't affect everyone the same doesn't mean it doesn't exist and affect people."

Where did I say it doesn't exist? I already acknowledged that the reason for why the causation of getting hit differentiates between cultures is solely based on environment, mental health, and the amount of pain inflicted on the person.

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/new-report-ranks-states’-mental-health-status-and-access-care

Over 42 million adults in America suffer from mental health problems.

Mental health illnesses are hereditary.

"According to the research hitting children always does result in negative result, but not to the same degree every time. Since obviously all children and scenarios are different."

Always has a negative result? I disagree. This is subjective evidence, and cannot be evaluated in a straightforward approach without the consideration of other underlying factors such as mental health. I've seen kids get hit by their parents publicly and act like nothing happened. I've seen kids get hit by their parents and act like they're dying. This stems from the stability of your mental health and the pain inflicted on the individual. Objective evidence is something we can all evaluate.

"EDIT: That's great that you linked a couple articles about SLEEPING. LOL. Great job, but oh wait, we're speaking about hitting children and it's negative effects. Shoot, try again."

You fail to see the point in why I mentioned that. It's proof that there are other factors for why the learning ability of Americans is underwhelming from other areas in the world, this includes children.

By the way, nice job quoting my unfinished post. There is a reason for why it's deleted.

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

Where did I say it doesn't exist? I already acknowledged that the reason for why the causation of getting hit differentiates between cultures is solely based on environment, mental health, and the amount of pain inflicted on the person.

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/new-report-ranks-states’-mental-health-status-and-access-care

Over 42 million adults in America suffer from mental health problems.

Mental health illnesses are hereditary.

I already answered that in my last post. Mental health has nothing to do with it. See Below.

Always has a negative result? I disagree. This is subjective evidence, and cannot be evaluated in a straightforward approach without the consideration of other underlying factors such as mental health. I've seen kids get hit by their parents publicly and act like nothing happened. I've seen kids get hit by their parents and act like they're dying. This stems from the stability of your mental health and the pain inflicted on the individual. Objective evidence is something we can all evaluate.

A childs immediate reaction to being hit has nothing to do with the negative effects LOL. I'm saying there is a decrease in grey matter which causes other issues. It's not something you'll see a second after hitting a child. So this response of yours is flat stupid. and the mental health of any given child is irrelevant when the studies are done with hundreds/thousands of children. These studies are measured, compared, analyzed, and controlled. Yet you still have the nerve to think you somehow know better because "you were hit and are just fine." Derp.

You fail to see the point in why I mentioned that. It's proof that there are other factors for why the learning ability of Americans is underwhelming from other areas in the world, this includes children.

Refer to my last post. Confronts this.

By the way, nice job quoting my unfinished post. There is a reason for why it's deleted.

Wondered why it disappeared? It wouldn't allow me to quote it so I did it manually, then it disappeared. Why?

 

Please learn the difference between subjective evidence and objective evidence. It's starting to get annoying.

http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/objctive.htm

The "evidence" is already evaluated for you. You simply have to accept what's there without knowing what other factors were taken into consideration.

You did. By saying that there's no negative effects of hitting your children and then trying to support that claim by saying it's because it doesn't affect everyone the same.

I didn't say there were NO negative effects of hitting your children. Please quote me on this.

I didn't fail to understand. It's just so stupid of a logical connection that it's irrelevant. Let's use your example. If you drink bleach(hitting children) and gasoline(sleep issues etc), just because you prove gasoline(sleep) is causing issues, it doesn't disprove that the bleach is harming you as well.

Thanks for completely mixing two different points together.

Sleep deprivation is very common with Americans, hence the report. What does sleep deprivation affect? YOUR LEARNING ABILITY. America is ranked 14th in education worldwide. THIS IS A FACTOR. It was an example showing that simply hitting your child alone will not cause your child to perform poorly in school. If that were the case, Asians wouldn't be ranked so high in education.

Asians are not inherently smarter than any other race.

http://www.sleepforkids.org/html/uskids.html

The bleach example was a correlation to inevitable effects.

If hitting your child had effects that were inevitably going to happen, it would not be practiced to this extent.

A childs immediate reaction to being hit has nothing to do with the negative effects LOL. I'm saying there is a decrease in grey matter which causes other issues. It's not something you'll see a second after hitting a child. So this response of yours is flat stupid. and the mental health of any given child is irrelevant when the studies are done with hundreds/thousands of children. These studies are measured, compared, analyzed, and controlled. Yet you still have the nerve to think you somehow know better because "you were hit and are just fine." Derp.

A childs immediate reaction has NOTHING to do with negative effects? Really? Can you give some empirical data showing otherwise?

Those studies can't measure everything. They measure what's at face value, and what they're told in surveys.

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/lying-and-deception/children-and-lying.html

But that's none of my business...

Wondered why it disappeared? It wouldn't allow me to quote it so I did it manually, then it disappeared. Why?

I accidently submitted my reply well before going over what I posted, which is why it was deleted before you replied to it.

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

Please learn the difference between subjective evidence and objective evidence. It's starting to get annoying.

http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/objctive.htm

The "evidence" is already evaluated for you. You simply have to accept what's there without knowing what other factors were taken into consideration.



I didn't say there were NO negative effects of hitting your children. Please quote me on this.



Thanks for completely mixing two different points together.

Sleep deprivation is very common with Americans, hence the report. What does sleep deprivation affect? YOUR LEARNING ABILITY. America is ranked 14th in education worldwide. THIS IS A FACTOR. It was an example showing that simply hitting your child alone will not cause your child to perform poorly in school. If that were the case, Asians wouldn't be ranked so high in education.

Asians are not inherently smarter than any other race.

http://www.sleepforkids.org/html/uskids.html

The bleach example was a correlation to inevitable effects.

If hitting your child had effects that were inevitably going to happen, it would not be practiced to this extent.



A childs immediate reaction has NOTHING to do with negative effects? Really? Can you give some empirical data showing otherwise?

Those studies can't measure everything. They measure what's at face value, and what they're told in surveys.

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/lying-and-deception/children-and-lying.html

But that's none of my business...



I accidently submitted my reply well before going over what I posted, which is why it was deleted before you replied to it.

You keep going off on tangents that don't address my point, whether on purpose or not I don't know.

Anyway, it's obvious you won't concede your argument. So let's assume you're right, which quite frankly, you're not:

Why would physically beating on your child be best solution? It's not.

Check out this article. Methods of Discipline

 

You keep going off on tangents that don't address my point, whether on purpose or not I don't know.

Anyway, it's obvious you won't concede your argument. So let's assume you're right, which quite frankly, you're not:

Why would physically beating on your child be best solution? It's not.

Check out this article. Methods of Discipline

Are you blind? I'm replying to your points/rebuttals. You didn't even bother to respond to my points as well, this includes the articles backing up my position on the matter.

TIME TO REITERATE MYSELF FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME!

Definition of okay - satisfactory but not exceptionally or especially good.

Is it universally wrong to hit your child? Well let's see.

There are 32 countries that forbid corporal punishment OUT OF 196.

This means 16% of the world deems that hitting your child is unacceptable.

I'm not a mathematician by any means, but I'm pretty sure that means the vast majority deems it satisfactory.

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

Are you blind? I'm replying to your points/rebuttals. You didn't even bother to respond to my points as well, this includes the articles backing up my position on the matter.

TIME TO REITERATE MYSELF FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME!

Definition of okay - satisfactory but not exceptionally or especially good.

Is it universally wrong to hit your child? Well let's see.

There are 32 countries that forbid corporal punishment OUT OF 196.

This means 16% of the world deems that hitting your child is unacceptable.

I'm not a mathematician by any means, but I'm pretty sure that means the vast majority deems it satisfactory.

You're replying to quotes you made, but not the points as I intended them. You've done that the entire time.

Just because a lot of people allow it doesn't make it right. Ever heard of slaves? Just because people owned slaves everywhere and it was accepted doesn't make it right.

 

You're replying to quotes you made, but not the points as I intended them. You've done that the entire time.

Just because a lot of people allow it doesn't make it right. Ever heard of slaves? Just because people owned slaves everywhere and it was accepted doesn't make it right.

"Refer to my last post"

I did

"You keep going off on tangents that don't address my point"

???

The quotes I made are YOUR WORDS VERBATIM. I replied to you on my phone and couldn't be arsed to include your name in the quotes. If you cannot connect the evident dots, that's on you. You're finding excuses to get out of responding to my points.

Let me ask you this. Do our morals trump the morals of others? Even in one of the most progressive countries in the world, corporal punishment is still legal. What does that tell us?

84% of the world deems it satisfactory to hit your child.

Ever heard of slaves? Just because people owned slaves everywhere and it was accepted doesn't make it right.

Once again you're wrong. There were no slaves "everywhere".

Slavery was satisfactory back then. Our moral views on it changed, thus why it was abolished.

As of now, the vast majority of the world deems it okay to hit your child.

 

[Mootrucks]

It's never okay for a parent to hit their kid in my opinion.

 

[Kugo Ginjo]

"Refer to my last post"

I did

"You keep going off on tangents that don't address my point"

???

The quotes I made are YOUR WORDS VERBATIM. I replied to you on my phone and couldn't be arsed to include your name in the quotes. If you cannot connect the evident dots, that's on you. You're finding excuses to get out of responding to my points.

Let me ask you this. Do our morals trump the morals of others? Even in one of the most progressive countries in the world, corporal punishment is still legal. What does that tell us?

84% of the world deems it satisfactory to hit your child.



Once again you're wrong. There were no slaves "everywhere".

Slavery was satisfactory back then. Our moral views on it changed, thus why it was abolished.

As of now, the vast majority of the world deems it okay to hit your child.

Lol not very bright are you? You are putting words after mine, but they aren't refuting my points. They are making separate irrelevant points in order to skirt all my points that you know you can't refute or you just don't understand the points I am making.

Slaves were accepted at a comparable rate that hitting children is now. And since the evidence that hitting children is not very effective and is bad for children is stacking up I think that it will become either law that you can't or it will be taboo.