Should luring be against the rules?

Shin · Jul 22, 2014

I'm not going to post my opinion on this matter, as I would be providing bias to the other users viewing this thread.

However, I am making this thread based on NotAPedo's suggestion, as I didn't feel their post should go unnoticed.

NotAPedo said:
This whole discussion is retarded.

To a Mod
Open up a public poll and let the community vote on whether or not luring should be allowed on Sythe.
Then make a change to the Official Sythe Rules based on the results

A poll has been attached to this thread.

Regarding the outcome of the poll, this rule may or may not be changed, but an official poll may be posted in the Staff Lounge (if necessary).

Edit: If you vote in the poll, your reasoning must be defended in a post. Otherwise, your vote may potentially be disregarded or thrown out.

ConnorP · Jul 22, 2014

50/50 really comes to common sense for alot of lures honestly

a noob will always get lured a veteran not so likely

not bannable from me

Stickly · Jul 22, 2014

I'll say no, simply because you should be able to tell what is a lure. But this depends on the case, if someone posts in "looking for a luring partner" or whatever, and they lure them, I'd say yes to a month ban or something along those lines and a TWC. (Not sure on punishment, not a perma, though unless multiple offenses.)

Wonderland · Jul 22, 2014

I'm going to throw a scenario out here. Before reading, I suggest you look up the definition of luring.

Anyone remember just un dude? Yeah, he exploited a bug to dupe gold, and later sold that gold to other people.

Wouldn't that be classified as luring? His shockingly low prices "lured" other people to buy his gold. His actions were intentional, if not indirect.

But didn't he put a lot of people at risk? Yeah, what about luring other people for their valuables? Weren't they at risk?

In both cases you're protecting players that break the rules of the game. We have a section that supports runescape bug abuse (Runescape cheating), yet we can't profit from other people's expenses? I don't see how that makes sense.

Sythe stated that it was a game mechanic, so no one should be at fault. Given the scenario I've just given, isn't bug abusing apart of the game mechanics? There is nothing in the rules that say we can't profit from bugs at the cost of other people's expenses.

If you're going to accept luring as a thing, unban just un dude.

Phi · Jul 22, 2014

This has been posted about quite a few times:
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1670083-rules-game-activity.html
http://www.sythe.org/runescape-guides-minigames-servers/1210960-another-luring-thread.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1667367-make-luring-perm-ban-offense.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1402458-glitching-luring.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1235656-luring-should-not-allowed-sythe.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1183162-luring-vs-scamming.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1080006-luring-classed-scamming.html

All of those denied, but if this pole will really result in a change in the rules, then I vote no. Luring doesn't work based on forcible stealing of one's wealth or abuse of recovery systems like paypal chargebacks or whatever. It's entirely at the victim's free will that they allow themselves to be lured, so it's not sythe mods' jobs beat common sense into users

Shin · Jul 22, 2014

Phi said:
This has been posted about quite a few times:
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1670083-rules-game-activity.html
http://www.sythe.org/runescape-guides-minigames-servers/1210960-another-luring-thread.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1667367-make-luring-perm-ban-offense.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1402458-glitching-luring.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1235656-luring-should-not-allowed-sythe.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1183162-luring-vs-scamming.html
http://www.sythe.org/denied-suggestions/1080006-luring-classed-scamming.html

All of those denied, but if this pole will really result in a change in the rules, then I vote no. Luring doesn't work based on forcible stealing of one's wealth or abuse of recovery systems like paypal chargebacks or whatever. It's entirely at the victim's free will that they allow themselves to be lured, so it's not sythe mods' jobs beat common sense into users

This thread has been created as a result of this post:

FireZ said:
Locked as spam. Anyone who can start a topic without all the garbage this one has feel free.

Visci · Jul 22, 2014

Phi said:
Luring doesn't work based on forcible stealing of one's wealth or abuse of recovery systems like paypal chargebacks or whatever. It's entirely at the victim's free will that they allow themselves to be lured, so it's not sythe mods' jobs beat common sense into users

Luring is a scam, like any other. Sythe bans for teamviewer scams, despite the fact that it's entirely at your own will you allowed yourself to get scammed for it.

I don't think that it'll be made against the rules, but it's scummy as fuck and I'd prefer it didn't exist here.

Emperor Nero · Jul 22, 2014

I voted yes. Considering the average age and intelligence level of that age group that plays runescape then you can really take advantage of kids in their early to mid teens who just don't know any better. Abusing naivety at it's simplest. If not entirely disallowing luring then if people can prove they were lured by a Sythe member who used Sythe to lure them then make that against the rules. As someone stated there is an inherent trust in doing an activity with another sythe member because you both agree that the gold you are carry is worth money.

Grave · Jul 22, 2014

Ghast said:
Wouldn't that be classified as luring? His shockingly low prices "lured" other people to buy his gold. His actions were intentional, if not indirect.

In that case scammers also "lure" so scamming should be allowed too.

But didn't he put a lot of people at risk? Yeah, what about luring other people for their valuables? Weren't they at risk?

I was one of the people he/his friends/group sold gold to, and even though I was obviously maybe put at risk, I wasn't banned. Jagex was too busy banning the people who actually used the glitch. So again, bad example.

In both cases you're protecting players that break the rules of the game. We have a section that supports runescape bug abuse (Runescape cheating), yet we can't profit from other people's expenses? I don't see how that makes sense.

Even Runescape permits luring. I don't think luring should be allowed, but it is on the game itself, so it's hard to justify it being a bannable offense, especially on an RS black market. People should generally be aware that if they enter an unsafe area they can be killed. It's something that's allowed to happen in the game. If Jagex was so concerned about this, they could easily eliminate it by making sure you can only take combat items into unsafe areas. No party hats, no millions stack of gold, etc.

TradeFortress · Jul 22, 2014

Luring -to tempt (a person or an animal) to do something or to go somewhere, especially by offering some form of reward.

Luring is taking advantage of someone else to rip them off. If I were to say "Hey John, I have 500M I could split with you if you just give me the 50M I need so I can buy an upgrade to unlock my 07 account", and then he gives me the 50M and I block and delete him off of Skype, he would post a scam report and I'd be banned. That's the same exact thing as luring. If luring is legal so should off-site scamming because that's what it is.

KaysHD · Jul 22, 2014

What we have to realize is that unless a person is offering a service of some sort, we have no control over what they do in RS. Suppose an individual meets someone on Sythe, adds them on Skype, and they play RS together. Five hours later, player A lures player B. There is no definitive way of knowing whether or not the lure was linked to Sythe, unless of course the person is running a service, in which case, I believe it should be bannable.

Chris · Jul 22, 2014

Why are we having this discussion? The rules clearly state, you can lure but not sythe members as that's considered scamming.

KerokeroCola said:
We'll try this again with some more organization, this time. ^_^

Post here ONLY if you are offering yourself as a luring partner. Fill this form out--if you do not, your post will be deleted.

Note to anyone looking through this thread for a luring partner:
I suggest you look through this thread in reverse order to get more recent posts.

Please do NOT partner with another Sythe member and lure him as the intended target. We see this as undermining your trust, and we consider it scamming.

Phi · Jul 22, 2014

Visci said:
Luring is a scam, like any other. Sythe bans for teamviewer scams, despite the fact that it's entirely at your own will you allowed yourself to get scammed for it.

I don't think that it'll be made against the rules, but it's scummy as fuck and I'd prefer it didn't exist here.

It's not entirely at your own will when someone wrests control of your computer and drops your cash without your consent. Your money is being put at risk under the pretense of gold or account trading, making it a scam

Wonderland · Jul 22, 2014

Grave said:
In that case scammers also "lure" so scamming should be allowed too.

I was one of the people he/his friends/group sold gold to, and even though I was obviously maybe put at risk, I wasn't banned. Jagex was too busy banning the people who actually used the glitch. So again, bad example.

Even Runescape permits luring. I don't think luring should be allowed, but it is on the game itself, so it's hard to justify it being a bannable offense, especially on an RS black market. People should generally be aware that if they enter an unsafe area they can be killed. It's something that's allowed to happen in the game. If Jagex was so concerned about this, they could easily eliminate it by making sure you can only take combat items into unsafe areas. No party hats, no millions stack of gold, etc.

Rs doesn't permit luring. I gave proof on my old suggestion thread. People were at risk, doesn't matter if nothing happened. Scamming and luring are synonymous. Either way it should be polled in sf.

Dave · Jul 22, 2014

The rule states that you can lure so long as you're not knowingly luring a Sythe member.

I think we should only ban lurers if they're luring other Sythe members, that's what this poll should be about.

Phi · Jul 22, 2014

Dave said:
The rule states that you can lure so long as you're not knowingly luring a Sythe member.

I think we should only ban lurers if they're luring other Sythe members, that's what this poll should be about.

Key word is "knowingly", and therefore we've run into the same problem as every other time this is brought up. How do you prove they knew their victim was a sythe member or not? Anyone can simply plead ignorance, and you've no proof against them

Shin · Jul 22, 2014

Dave said:
The rule states that you can lure so long as you're not knowingly luring a Sythe member.

I think we should only ban lurers if they're luring other Sythe members, that's what this poll should be about.

That's what this thread was meant to be about.

I don't have the power to edit the poll, however.

Dave · Jul 22, 2014

Phi said:
Key word is "knowingly", and therefore we've run into the same problem as every other time this is brought up. How do you prove they knew their victim was a sythe member or not? Anyone can simply plead ignorance, and you've no proof against them

I mean in the sense that they're lured through Sythe somehow. They're asked to go PKing together via Skype/Sythe PM, they're asked to come assist in luring, they're lured THROUGH Sythe.

If that takes place then it should be a ban. As for not having proof, this thread seems to show enough - http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?p=13720347#post13720347

leyton · Jul 22, 2014

I think that luring another Sythe member should be bannable due to it being a major breach of trust. I myself see Sythe as a sort of community and having that trust ruined by another member may make people see Sythe in itself as untrustworthy and stop trading via Sythe; or even leave the community.

Majora · Jul 22, 2014

Sythe said:
The topic has been discussed about a thousand times before and we always come back to two essential points:

1. Luring is a game mechanic. You can't have PvP without letting players 'convince' other players to join them in unsafe areas.

2. The matter involves no element of RWT therefore we don't handle it. Complain to Jagex if you think a player has scammed you in-game.

What Richard stated here is true for certain reasons, but also controverts another rule.

Name sniping is also a game mechanic which can be abused to obtain another users marketable goods, that is bannable, as it should be.

I think that all of these "wrongful" activities that involve game mechanics need to be looked at more into detail. If the suspected scammer (lurer) has the mentality to steal goods from another user (in the form of a lure) then that should definitely reprimanded with a ban. If you're lured in the process of a 1B rsgp sale for pay pal over sythe.org, that should be bannable, and this evidence is simple to record and document if you're taking necessary safety precautions every time you make transactions with RSGP.

On the other hand, if player "Dave" lures on Runescape, but lures through communication which is external from Sythe.org, and commits offense to random users from outside the community of Sythe, he isn't doing OUR community wrong, even though what he does is frowned upon by some users, it's still private business that he does not coincide with Sythe.org or perform at any other community members risk.

I probably shoudl've picked a better name example than Dave, LOL sorry buddy.

Should luring be against the rules?

Should luring be against the rules? (Ban-able offence)

Yes

No

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