Staking Services

[Emperor Nero]

How is there any difference between a staking service and any dice related thread?
They are both gambling/investment depending how you look at it.
Your banning staking but not dice, thats just bias, they are both one in the same, if one goes its only fair the other follows.

How do you draw those comparisons? I haven't see any threads where people are saying 'Give me your money, I will go dice it for you!' I don't see the connection between the two.

 

[kmjt]

How is there any difference between a staking service and any dice related thread?
They are both gambling/investment depending how you look at it.
Your banning staking but not dice, thats just bias, they are both one in the same, if one goes its only fair the other follows.

Staking service: Customer is paying for a service that isn't guaranteed.
Dicing service: Customer is paying for a service that is guaranteed.

There is a big difference.

 

Staking service: Customer is paying for a service that isn't guaranteed.
Dicing service: Customer is paying for a service that is guaranteed.

There is a big difference.

Dicing has the same 50/50 chances as staking does. It's the same thing.

Thanks for the comparison Travis.

 

[kmjt]

Dicing has the same 50/50 chances as staking does. It's the same thing.

Thanks for the comparison Travis.

Dicing clans essentially sell a middleman service for a fee. Hosts do not actually do the gambling. The customers do.

 

Dicing clans essentially sell a middleman service for a fee. Hosts do not actually do the gambling. The customers do.

But it's completely random, just like staking. It's essentially the same thing except the middleman is doing the gambling, same risk and reward.

 

[Punjabi3]

But it's completely random, just like staking. It's essentially the same thing except the middleman is doing the gambling, same risk and reward.

middlemans not rolling for you.

 

[kmjt]

But it's completely random, just like staking. It's essentially the same thing except the middleman is doing the gambling, same risk and reward.

But thats exactly the point. The middleman isn't doing the gambling. If he was a middleman he would ensure the safety of the service. You are not a middleman.

 

[Travis]

How do you draw those comparisons? I haven't see any threads where people are saying 'Give me your money, I will go dice it for you!' I don't see the connection between the two.

You don't? Every dice thread seems to be created by the clans hosts, they offer a service and take a fee, they don't say it directly, but its implied in the thread.

Staking service: Customer is paying for a service that isn't guaranteed.
Dicing service: Customer is paying for a service that is guaranteed.

There is a big difference.

There really isn't, any dice clan can get scammers, even dragon dyce has had a few in the past, the service is more reliable but that doesnt make it a sure thing.

I really enjoy dicing and dislike staking, the reason the service was stopped just about applies for every aspect of the market here on sythe.

Fake proof, chargebacks, rollbacks, imposters, all of these are "too risky/easy to fraud." but alas Sythe is built on lies and deceit, but eventually you have to trust other people.

 

[kmjt]

Ok we'll use Dragon Dyce as an example. Yes all clans can be infiltrated by scammers, but Dragon Dyce has a legitimate system to provide safety to the customers. When doing bets all the customer has to do is screenshot placing the bet. If they feel that they got cheated the involved host is forced to provide extensive screenshots proving the outcome of the bet. If there are no pictures, the customer is automatically refunded the full amount (even if they lost).

How can a staking service protect its customers from hidden scams? I do not see any feasible way. There is always the chance as I mentioned a few posts back on how a customer can easily be manipulated.

It isn't like a host can hide a scam. If they plant a flower or roll a number the customer will see and not walk away oblivious that they just got scammed.

 

Ok we'll use Dragon Dyce as an example. Yes all clans can be infiltrated by scammers, but Dragon Dyce has a legitimate system to provide safety to the customers. When doing bets all the customer has to do is screenshot placing the bet. If they feel that they got cheated the involved host is forced to provide extensive screenshots proving the outcome of the bet. If there are no pictures, the customer is automatically refunded the full amount (even if they lost).

How can a staking service protect its customers from hidden scams? I do not see any feasible way. There is always the chance as I mentioned a few posts back on how a customer can easily be manipulated.

It isn't like a host can hide a scam. If they plant a flower or roll a number the customer will see and not walk away oblivious that they just got scammed.

Read the original post, I listed several methods of being able to tell the results.

 

[Travis]

Ok we'll use Dragon Dyce as an example. Yes all clans can be infiltrated by scammers, but Dragon Dyce has a legitimate system to provide safety to the customers. When doing bets all the customer has to do is screenshot placing the bet. If they feel that they got cheated the involved host is forced to provide extensive screenshots proving the outcome of the bet. If there are no pictures, the customer is automatically refunded the full amount (even if they lost).

How can a staking service protect its customers from hidden scams? I do not see any feasible way. There is always the chance as I mentioned a few posts back on how a customer can easily be manipulated.

It isn't like a host can hide a scam. If they plant a flower or roll a number the customer will see and not walk away oblivious that they just got scammed.

You're comparing all dicing to 'Dragon Dyce' thats like comparing say 'KMJT' offering a staking service to a 'newcomer' Theres always going to be that one person or clan that stands above the rest but really thats all it is.

You're taking this all to personally.

I'm sure there were also legit people offering staking services. You're saying 'Dragon Dyce' is legit so dicing should stay, but the same can be said about staking services.

 

[kmjt]

Read the original post, I listed several methods of being able to tell the results.

I don't see how any of the outlined precautions protect from this situation:

I'd also like to point out how easy it is to scam the customer in a staking service. I'm not questioning your legitimacy but i'll use you as an example.

You state on your thread you are not responsible for losses. You get a friend to duel you and purposely lose. You say the customer can watch but there are still ways to imitate a real duel while losing on purpose. So now your friend won that money and gives it to you, while the customer is out of luck according to your "not responsible" policy.

You're comparing all dicing to dragon dyce thats like comparing say 'KMJT' offering a staking service to a 'newcommer' Theres always going to be that one person or clan that stands above the rest but really thats all it is.

You're taking this all to personally.

I'm sure there were also legit people offering staking services. You're saying 'dragon dyce' is legit so dicing should stay the same can be said about staking services.

You are the one that mentioned Dragon Dyce in the first place, so I defended their service and explained how they protect their customers. I am not taking it personally

Can I get links to successful staking services from before?

 

I don't see how any of the outlined precautions protect from this situation:







You are the one that mentioned Dragon Dyce in the first place, so I defended their service and explained how they protect their customers. I am not taking it personally

Can I get links to successful staking services from before?

Well that one method seems unavoidable. But when I stake for people, they normally do small amounts, not go all in. I stake a different person each time.

 

[Travis]

Can I get links to successful staking services from before?

http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=1362445
Folts seemed pretty successful.

 

[Emperor Nero]

You're comparing all dicing to 'Dragon Dyce' thats like comparing say 'KMJT' offering a staking service to a 'newcomer' Theres always going to be that one person or clan that stands above the rest but really thats all it is.

You're taking this all to personally.

I'm sure there were also legit people offering staking services. You're saying 'Dragon Dyce' is legit so dicing should stay, but the same can be said about staking services.

He was using Dragon Dyce as an example. Consider that if a dicing clan is on Sythe that clan is under the jurisdiction of Sythe rules and I am sure if they are found to be scammers then they will in fact be prosecuted as such. In dicing you are directly involved in what is going on and not just a spectator at the mercy of a third party. In dicing you are responsible for you are accountable for your losses and wins and if you are scammed by a dicing clan on Sythe then you can provide proof and I am sure that the moderators would act according to Sythe rules and stop the clan.

KMJT made a valid point when he said that a person running a staking service can just have a friend come in and act as a third party and lose your money then he isn't responsible for the losses. Later they meet up and split the haul. There is no way to prevent this type of scam because unless they admit it you can't prove they lost on purpose. With dicing you are involved and can actively gather evidence of all transactions and if you are scammed then you will have proof and can actively seek a ban.

 

[kmjt]

http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=1362445
Folts seemed pretty successful.

There are a few things that worry me.

1. I looked through the thread and didn't find one unsatisfied customer. Surely there has been some disappointments?

2. Like I said before people try to convince the customer that they know some kind of pattern and this gives them a better chance. This guy does it:

Success rate is about 65%. But when adapting to a win/loss pattern, the profit nearly always overcomes the loss. (I haven't had a customer clean yet.)

For example : You may lose two 10m Stakes in a row, but if you win a third for 50M, you're up 30m with a 33% success rate.

As far as guarantee-ing profit goes, I can't guarantee anything. This is a risk service so promises cant be made. I do stake against other maxed players, so in theory the odds are 50/50. However if you stake long enough to establish a win/loss pattern things generally work out very successive from there. If you're testing your luck on one stake, you're not really leaving yourself with the opportunity to redeem your profit in a scenario where the first and only stake is lost.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, if you're only attempting at a single stake, your profit comes on a 50/50 basis. But the more stakes you do, the higher your chances are at coming out with high earnings.

If you need me to explain anything any better feel free to pm me with any other concerns or to clarify what I just mentioned.

To me that is giving the customer false hope.


Anyway I wouldn't be so against staking service if every single customer knew exactly what risks they were taking. Suggestions:

Every single service has to document their wins/losses in their thread to give the customer some idea.

A sticky or even at the start of every single thread something that clearly outlines the risks and how it is possible for someone to hide scams etc.

 

[Travis]

He was using Dragon Dyce as an example. Consider that if a dicing clan is on Sythe that clan is under the jurisdiction of Sythe rules and I am sure if they are found to be scammers then they will in fact be prosecuted as such. In dicing you are directly involved in what is going on and not just a spectator at the mercy of a third party. In dicing you are responsible for you are accountable for your losses and wins and if you are scammed by a dicing clan on Sythe then you can provide proof and I am sure that the moderators would act according to Sythe rules and stop the clan.

KMJT made a valid point when he said that a person running a staking service can just have a friend come in and act as a third party and lose your money then he isn't responsible for the losses. Later they meet up and split the haul. There is no way to prevent this type of scam because unless they admit it you can't prove they lost on purpose. With dicing you are involved and can actively gather evidence of all transactions and if you are scammed then you will have proof and can actively seek a ban.

He was using it as an example but really how many other dice clans can you say that about, the average assumption on runescape is Dice and Flower clans are nothing but scammers and cheat, duel arena is nothing but glitchers and scammers.
Dialatic mentioned that the stake should be recorded also the person who placed the bet should be watching, with these two things it would be very easy to tell if someone lost the fight on purpose. A requirement to record all staking services is simple and effective, no recording + being accused of fixing matches = banned from sythe its a simple resolve.
If theres a rule that says all matches have to be recorded then people are going to do it.

 

He was using it as an example but really how many other dice clans can you say that about, the average assumption on runescape is Dice and Flower clans are nothing but scammers and cheat, duel arena is nothing but glitchers and scammers.
Dialatic mentioned that the stake should be recorded also the person who placed the bet should be watching, with these two things it would be very easy to tell if someone lost the fight on purpose. A requirement to record all staking services is simple and effective, no recording + being accused of fixing matches = banned from sythe its a simple resolve.
If theres a rule that says all matches have to be recorded then people are going to do it.

Exactly. Why not make very strict rules about it, and if you don't follow, then you're given the banhammer? It would be so much better than just out-right banning it.

If someone reports you, and you don't have the video, then you're banned. There should be a time limit though of like a week or two, so you only have to keep the video for that length of time (in case you delete it for whatever reason).

 

[Apith]

Here's the reasons people don't support this suggestion.

Apparently because it's hard to show proof. It will be recorded and/or pictures be taken. The person betting would also watch, if it meant much to him.

It's easy to scam. But dialatic said why it isn't and wouldn't happen (Recorded).

People using these kinds of service knows the risks they take when using someone, they trust the person staking the money for them. But the odds of a scam is less likely to occur when the staker's Sythe rep and account itself hangs on the balance.

You cannot plan out a boxing fight. Especially when vidding, you'd clearly see the staker stop attacking. Other than that, you can't plan one. So take that off the table, and stop using it as a reason. If the opponent somehow gains an unfair advantage, like potions were turned on, then the staker would be held responsible to pay back his client (Just what was given).

If you're going to stop staking services because they're some sort of investment, isn't buying accounts another sort of investment? I bought an account off Sin, I consider it an investment. But a lot of other people buys accounts too, and they lose way more than what would be lost here. At least here you can prevent the client from being scammed with proof. Buying accounts is basically a gamble, so is this service, this sounds more safe to me though. This is basically the same as account selling, but in a way more secure because it is vidded. You trust the staker, and the staker even vids it if you have any disputes. When purchasing an account, you're buying an account and trusting the original owner.

I don't really see much of an argument bring brought up against Dialatic.

It's being compared to Dragon Dyce. Except Dragon Dyce doesn't have a requirement, here you need to be maxed. Not everyone is maxed, and this is a safer process of renting an account. If you rented an account, how can you provide proof you got booted off the account after putting 500M in? If anything, renting accounts are even worse, because no proof can be supplied.

 

[Lee Sin]

Maybe there should be a requirement to hold such a service? In terms of vouches/community contribution or something? Just thinking outloud.