Return to a more section oriented staffing structure

 

[FireZ]

lets just see what happens in the next few months now

 

I actually read all of this. Was just a general understanding of what happened in the past. I guess.

@WhoNeedsAChaser yes Rich has stated a few times he would prefer if people joined the dev teams or something along those lines.

I personally thought the moderating applications defines the people who like their individual sections, and apply for that section and hopefully that would bring in a lot of those sectionals that are really needed at the moment.

Currently as CDT member I find myself helping members with queries, because apparently they feel I respond actively or do more then staff in the terms of responding. Which is odd to me.

Yes community development team has this whole sense of helping the community and I'm fine with helping, I signed up because I like events; I'm community active in a lot of different areas - not so much into the gaming scene. Overall I personally assume that's the role of a CDT member, atm anyways.

Since the decline in staff and decline in sectionals I find myself doing community activities that you would see sectionals do or participate in? Is this a good thing? or a bad thing? Not necessarily a bad thing, but there are a lot of grey areas for me that sectionals would and I believe should focus on. Especially in the sections/area's they would like to be involved in/mod related things, poor gracious doing everything.

I personally haven't applied to staff because I know I wouldn't be good at it. I don't think I like the idea of having power and doing things with that power and having that responsibility. CDT to me is somewhat like this but I'm not classed as staff, and I can make mistakes and rectify them when necessary. I preferred to stay as a community member more so rather then having that step up in the hierarchy I guess. I can see why @SellerMan had the view that having people participate in community is a better thing then those who just deal with mod-related stuff. I feel like you need to have knowledge and experience to become staff and then eventually your community spirit diminishes because you're focusing on mod-related things. <-- hopefully this changes with the mod apps, and a lot more sectionals can get added in.

Sectionals should be community active. Globals more mod-active.
Staffing should specify on community activity as well as modscore? or such.
Isn't Richards proposition of staff peer review aiding in changing that already?

I guess I agree with OP, it was just so much to read that I became confused after finishing it. Just putting my two cents in.

 

[SuF]

Isn't the whole moderator applications meant to bring in multiple sectional moderators to help incorporate a section orientated staffing structure? From my understanding, no applications were for global moderator positions.

An introduction of sectional moderators by people that like those sections which they applied for addresses this issue. It's just still in the process of being implemented.

Alright so based on what Gracious just posted, only former global moderators can apply as global moderators. I am imagining a majority of applications were not former global moderators; nor do I imagine staff would really promote multiple global moderators even if that were the case.

With this in mind, moderator applications seem to be very sectional focused.

Not sure the whole point of the thread (being honest sorry @SuF will read after) - but if this is the point of the thread then yes we're (I saw we like I'm still yellow ) looking primarily for sectionals and new blood, that's what the main goal of applications are.

From my understanding, he's suggesting that we essentially just have more sectional moderators in general (around 4-5 for each section). He believes that these moderators will keep themselves busy by facilitating new discussion and content in said sections which I can see happening. I would support this if it meant more activity in the forums because the non market sections are pretty dead at the moment.

I think the apps were just to essentially replace all the sectionals who left at once. I wasn't aware there was a new plan or anything. Maybe there is and I'm just oblivious to it at the moment. I know for sure that @SuF wants more sectionals than they're probably willing to take at the moment though even though I do support an increase in sectionals due to it possibly increasing activity in the sections.

Just wait for new promotions IMO. Things will fall into place

On phone atm, so wont write much more.

I'm quoting you all at once since you all basically said the same thing. This post is not just about adding more moderators. I already made that thread two years ago and it was made clear that the staff team deeply disagreed with my position and even with the need for more moderators. @Sythe has said that he wants to make the staff team just for mediating disputes and not for anything community related and instead push off those responsibilities to the various community development teams. This thread is in reaction to that because the staff had already effectively had that for at least two years when they soundly rejected my feedback about the change in the nature of the staff. Nothing good has come of it and it is wrong for the staff to double down on what has already been proven to be a complete failure.

tl;dr: Yes I want more staff but that is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to hit at the deeper problems that show us why we need more staff.

 

[tMoon]

I'm quoting you all at once since you all basically said the same thing. This post is not just about adding more moderators. I already made that thread two years ago and it was made clear that the staff team deeply disagreed with my position and even with the need for more moderators. @Sythe has said that he wants to make the staff team just for mediating disputes and not for anything community related and instead push off those responsibilities to the various community development teams. This thread is in reaction to that because the staff had already effectively had that for at least two years when they soundly rejected my feedback about the change in the nature of the staff. Nothing good has come of it and it is wrong for the staff to double down on what has already been proven to be a complete failure.

tl;dr: Yes I want more staff but that is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to hit at the deeper problems that show us why we need more staff.

Could you not have given a tl;dr in the beginning of the thread.

Anyway,

Your suggestion may have been disregarded due to the sheer amount of staff that comprised a variety of sections. We have been in multiple situations where there are 2-3+ mods for off-topic alone.

I vaguely remember Sythe posting something along those lines, but I think it's more along the lines of lets have these community teams to focus on specific issues so staff is not so consumed with a variety of different responsibilities. I think at least sectionals should be active in their sections, but I don't really have a huge problem with upper staff focusing more on aspects of the site (RAS and such); however, this is not meant to imply upper staff should be inactive and not partake in important community discussion. Regarding community teams, I would support such a system that staff is not banned from such activities, rather the CDT (and such) are there as a support mechanism - not a replacement. If this is not the case, I think it should be.

Anyway, I'm not sure staff is doubling down on two-year-old methods?.. Community teams are still relatively new, the current lack of sectionals is temporary, staff is different, and Sythe is under a pretty big transition imo.

Also regarding your rejection of feedback. I'm (obviously) not in the position to tell you why, I am not the one that denied/likely even partook in the feedback, but anyway: you do not word your feedback in the best way. I read your entire thread and had trouble understanding what you really want to get across and you have a history of stirring up numerous shit storms not necessarily due to the feedback or whatever but due to how you go about doing it. Delivery is nearly (if not as) important as the actual feedback itself. Logical suggestions > drama threads

 

I'm quoting you all at once since you all basically said the same thing. This post is not just about adding more moderators. I already made that thread two years ago and it was made clear that the staff team deeply disagreed with my position and even with the need for more moderators. @Sythe has said that he wants to make the staff team just for mediating disputes and not for anything community related and instead push off those responsibilities to the various community development teams. This thread is in reaction to that because the staff had already effectively had that for at least two years when they soundly rejected my feedback about the change in the nature of the staff. Nothing good has come of it and it is wrong for the staff to double down on what has already been proven to be a complete failure.

tl;dr: Yes I want more staff but that is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to hit at the deeper problems that show us why we need more staff.

The problem is that you over-complicate your platform. The staff team has had an average of 20 members for a very long time. There was never a need for this many to begin with, at least not now. Obviously there is a need for more members since the staff team has only 13 members, 2 of which that are sectionals. This will change very soon and you know it will, as you were told numerous times that more staff is on the way.

 

[SuF]

Interesting read. It was my understanding that the current application process was an attempt to gain more sectional moderators and start make the changes you've suggested @SuF. If that's not the case, I would definitely support a shift in that direction. You mentioned Sythe wanting to continue in a direction that would work against these plans, but I'm not seeing it. Are you referring to the addition/expansion of CDT/PR/Technology Core teams and their handling of what should be mostly moderator duties?

No I get that, but I'm saying I thought that these changes were already in process with the new application system. I'm not sure the plan is necessarily to have 4-5 sectionals, but I do believe the plan is to promote discussion and community activity by revamping the moderator core. I guess I just wasn't sure what he meant by Richard wanting to continue down the previous path.

Do you get tired of making long posts that can be broken down in less than 200 characters? First off, there is no need to have an excess amount of sectionals. This is not 2009, the community is much smaller. Restricting perms for the sake of delegating specific responsibilities to sectionals compromises efficiency. You need to stop living in the past.

Yeah I think the issue itself is more just staff not actively participating in the forum

lets just see what happens in the next few months now

I'm going to quote you all at once since all your posts are along the same lines I belive. First off I will say that I posted such a long thread because the majority of people do not understand what the staff used to be like. When I talk to staff members now I we disagree about so much about what they should be doing. People need to understand the history of the staff team to understand why I believe the staff team over the last many years has been horribly ineffective and directly contributed to the loss of our community. In addition the staff team needs to understand where I am coming from because I know many of them believe I am just a troll when I tell them to do their jobs. The issue is that we fundamentally disagree with what their job is because I was on the staff during a much different time with much different priorities.

Now @Sythe has specifically said, if not on the forums certainly in voice chat, that he views the staff team not as police or moderators but as a court system. He has specifically mentioned potentially getting rid of sectionals completly because he does not think they have any value and that their jobs should be handled by the various commjnity development teams. I posted this thread because I do not believe the staff will ever move back in the other direction on their own since there is no strong voice for the old style of staff. The mod applications are not really relevant to this feedback because having more moderators is meaningless unless you solve the underlying issues. I brought up everything I brought up here two years ago and the staff rejected it and have only moved further away from what I have suggested. This thread is really about trying to show the staff that they have been doing exactly what @Sythe wants now for at least the last two years and none of the things that Sythe wants to achomplish have been achomplished. I posit that this is because what the staff currently is doing is fundamentally flawed and actively harming the community as compared to what the staff used to do.

I hope that explains why I posted such a long thread and why I am pushing this as hard as I am.

 

[SuF]

The problem is that you over-complicate your platform. The staff team has had an average of 20 members for a very long time. There was never a need for this many to begin with, at least not now. Obviously there is a need for more members since the staff team has only 13 members, 2 of which that are sectionals. This will change very soon and you know it will, as you were told numerous times that more staff is on the way.

More staff is not what I am asking for.

 

[SuF]

Could you not have given a tl;dr in the beginning of the thread.

Anyway,

Your suggestion may have been disregarded due to the sheer amount of staff that comprised a variety of sections. We have been in multiple situations where there are 2-3+ mods for off-topic alone.

I vaguely remember Sythe posting something along those lines, but I think it's more along the lines of lets have these community teams to focus on specific issues so staff is not so consumed with a variety of different responsibilities. I think at least sectionals should be active in their sections, but I don't really have a huge problem with upper staff focusing more on aspects of the site (RAS and such); however, this is not meant to imply upper staff should be inactive and not partake in important community discussion. Regarding community teams, I would support such a system that staff is not banned from such activities, rather the CDT (and such) are there as a support mechanism - not a replacement. If this is not the case, I think it should be.

Anyway, I'm not sure staff is doubling down on two-year-old methods?.. Community teams are still relatively new, the current lack of sectionals is temporary, staff is different, and Sythe is under a pretty big transition imo.

Also regarding your rejection of feedback. I'm (obviously) not in the position to tell you why, I am not the one that denied/likely even partook in the feedback, but anyway: you do not word your feedback in the best way. I read your entire thread and had trouble understanding what you really want to get across and you have a history of stirring up numerous shit storms not necessarily due to the feedback or whatever but due to how you go about doing it. Delivery is nearly (if not as) important as the actual feedback itself. Logical suggestions > drama threads

I didn't give a tl;dr for a reason and I think I explained why a couple posts up.

I agree with a lot of what you've said but the CDT is really old and two years ago @Roary said pretty much everything I think sectionals should be done by the CDT instead. Richard has also suggested simply getting rid of sectionals all together which I would call doubling down.

I am bad at writing so I try to write a lot. My drama threads are mostly done for a reason and I've had successes in the past with them more than I have had with other methods. Although I do sometimes do just get mad.

 

[S]

You guys are over reacting. Just wait a bit.

 

I agree with a lot of what you've said but the CDT is really old and two years ago @Roary said pretty much everything I think sectionals should be done by the CDT instead. Richard has also suggested simply getting rid of sectionals all together which I would call doubling down.

I'm confused, are you saying you don't think there should be a CDT?
Or you want more sectionals doing CDT jobs?
You want CDT as sectionals?
You want CDT to be removed, and have a lot more sectionals doing CDT + mod jobs?

 

I'm going to quote you all at once since all your posts are along the same lines I belive. First off I will say that I posted such a long thread because the majority of people do not understand what the staff used to be like. When I talk to staff members now I we disagree about so much about what they should be doing. People need to understand the history of the staff team to understand why I believe the staff team over the last many years has been horribly ineffective and directly contributed to the loss of our community. In addition the staff team needs to understand where I am coming from because I know many of them believe I am just a troll when I tell them to do their jobs. The issue is that we fundamentally disagree with what their job is because I was on the staff during a much different time with much different priorities.

Now @Sythe has specifically said, if not on the forums certainly in voice chat, that he views the staff team not as police or moderators but as a court system. He has specifically mentioned potentially getting rid of sectionals completly because he does not think they have any value and that their jobs should be handled by the various commjnity development teams. I posted this thread because I do not believe the staff will ever move back in the other direction on their own since there is no strong voice for the old style of staff. The mod applications are not really relevant to this feedback because having more moderators is meaningless unless you solve the underlying issues. I brought up everything I brought up here two years ago and the staff rejected it and have only moved further away from what I have suggested. This thread is really about trying to show the staff that they have been doing exactly what @Sythe wants now for at least the last two years and none of the things that Sythe wants to achomplish have been achomplished. I posit that this is because what the staff currently is doing is fundamentally flawed and actively harming the community as compared to what the staff used to do.

I hope that explains why I posted such a long thread and why I am pushing this as hard as I am.

What staff is doing is not fundamentally flawed. The primary principle and relevance of staff on an online forum is to moderate it. I'm not totally adverse to the removal of sectionals simply because efficiency would sky rocket.

More staff is not what I am asking for.

tl;dr: Yes I want more staff but that is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose is to hit at the deeper problems that show us why we need more staff.

Contradicting yourself here. You want more staff, but that isn't the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread is to show why we need more staff? So how is more staff not what you're asking for?

 

[SuF]

You guys are over reacting. Just wait a bit.

I don't think it is over reacting to post feedback about a proposed policy that has already been in use for over two years with no results.

 

[SuF]

And @SellerMan, this is exactly why I said I can not get anything done unless I'm staff and this is exactly why I do not generally try the being nice approach. Please try to see this from my side. You are just completely dismissing my contribution and actively refusing to let me have a voice. I'm here trying to help and no one is taking me seriously and it seems like the staff would rather me just stop posting than actually taking what I am saying seriously. No one has actually addressed my feedback yet other than just telling me that it is not needed or I should not have posted it. How is that ok? How is that the correct solution? How is that helping the community?

 

[SuF]

What staff is doing is not fundamentally flawed. The primary principle and relevance of staff on an online forum is to moderate it. I'm not totally adverse to the removal of sectionals simply because efficiency would sky rocket.

Contradicting yourself here. You want more staff, but that isn't the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread is to show why we need more staff? So how is more staff not what you're asking for?

We fundamentally disagree. The staff team's purpose is not just defined somewhere. It's not something that is objective and set in stone. It all comes down to what the staff decides their purpose is. Clearly the Sythe community is an extremely important part of this website and the staff needs to recognize that and be active in shaping it and improving it or else there isn't going to be a site to be staff on anymore.

I also am not contradicting myself. I was speaking about the direct goals of this thread, which is not to add staff. My direct goal of this thread is to change the culture of the staff and change the view on what the staff should be. Indirectly that does mean adding more staff but I do not and will not support adding staff for the sake of adding staff. There needs to be deeper reforms or adding more staff is going to be pointless.

 

[S]

And @SellerMan, this is exactly why I said I can not get anything done unless I'm staff and this is exactly why I do not generally try the being nice approach. Please try to see this from my side. You are just completely dismissing my contribution and actively refusing to let me have a voice. I'm here trying to help and no one is taking me seriously and it seems like the staff would rather me just stop posting than actually taking what I am saying seriously. No one has actually addressed my feedback yet other than just telling me that it is not needed or I should not have posted it. How is that ok? How is that the correct solution? How is that helping the community?

Im not dismissing your concerns, nor your feedback.

Ill post a more indepth reply when on the comp.

 

[SuF]

Im not dismissing your concerns, nor your feedback.

Ill post a more indepth reply when on the comp.

I'm sorry. I should have said that is what it feels like. I should not have assumed your intentions.

 

I'm going to quote you all at once since all your posts are along the same lines I belive. First off I will say that I posted such a long thread because the majority of people do not understand what the staff used to be like. When I talk to staff members now I we disagree about so much about what they should be doing. People need to understand the history of the staff team to understand why I believe the staff team over the last many years has been horribly ineffective and directly contributed to the loss of our community. In addition the staff team needs to understand where I am coming from because I know many of them believe I am just a troll when I tell them to do their jobs. The issue is that we fundamentally disagree with what their job is because I was on the staff during a much different time with much different priorities.

Now @Sythe has specifically said, if not on the forums certainly in voice chat, that he views the staff team not as police or moderators but as a court system. He has specifically mentioned potentially getting rid of sectionals completly because he does not think they have any value and that their jobs should be handled by the various commjnity development teams. I posted this thread because I do not believe the staff will ever move back in the other direction on their own since there is no strong voice for the old style of staff. The mod applications are not really relevant to this feedback because having more moderators is meaningless unless you solve the underlying issues. I brought up everything I brought up here two years ago and the staff rejected it and have only moved further away from what I have suggested. This thread is really about trying to show the staff that they have been doing exactly what @Sythe wants now for at least the last two years and none of the things that Sythe wants to achomplish have been achomplished. I posit that this is because what the staff currently is doing is fundamentally flawed and actively harming the community as compared to what the staff used to do.

I hope that explains why I posted such a long thread and why I am pushing this as hard as I am.

I see. I'd be in favor of maybe a more heavily-defined role for sectional moderators? I'm not sure what requirements could be made in this respect, as I don't think you'd necessarily want to require the sectional mod to post x amount of times in their section, close x amount of threads, etc. That would likely just lead to the same problems that we had with modscore. Taking this from a community-development aspect, maybe a general overview of their sectional performance could be made at a given time? Globals/Admins would evaluate the sectional based on overall activity, tournaments/games hosted and/or participated in within their section, things like that? Obviously that's a very obscure way to evaluate for community participation, but I don't see how else to avoid the modscore issues from the past. Just posting the first few things that came to mind upon reading your response, I'll try to post something more coherent later.

 

[SuF]

I see. I'd be in favor of maybe a more heavily-defined role for sectional moderators? I'm not sure what requirements could be made in this respect, as I don't think you'd necessarily want to require the sectional mod to post x amount of times in their section, close x amount of threads, etc. That would likely just lead to the same problems that we had with modscore. Taking this from a community-development aspect, maybe a general overview of their sectional performance could be made at a given time? Globals/Admins would evaluate the sectional based on overall activity, tournaments/games hosted and/or participated in within their section, things like that? Obviously that's a very obscure way to evaluate for community participation, but I don't see how else to avoid the modscore issues from the past. Just posting the first few things that came to mind upon reading your response, I'll try to post something more coherent later.

Tracking activity will still be an issue. I really would rather try to stay away from suggestions on how to fix the problem and stick to trying to better explain the problem as a see it as feedback. I'd like people to come over to agreeing something should be done before we talk about what to do.

 

We fundamentally disagree. The staff team's purpose is not just defined somewhere. It's not something that is objective and set in stone. It all comes down to what the staff decides their purpose is. Clearly the Sythe community is an extremely important part of this website and the staff needs to recognize that and be active in shaping it and improving it or else there isn't going to be a site to be staff on anymore.

I also am not contradicting myself. I was speaking about the direct goals of this thread, which is not to add staff. My direct goal of this thread is to change the culture of the staff and change the view on what the staff should be. Indirectly that does mean adding more staff but I do not and will not support adding staff for the sake of adding staff. There needs to be deeper reforms or adding more staff is going to be pointless.

So you're saying the primary objective for a moderator is not to moderate, or rather not defined? Interesting.

Indirectly asking for more staff to be added still falls in line with wanting more staff to be added. Blatant contradiction.