DropKick Murphys
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Hell no I wouldn't. I would never allow myself to be enslaved and to go kill innocent people.
Military Draft
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TJ
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This country ain't worth my life, sorry.
well, in my country there is an obligatory draft into the army at the age of 18.
contrary to what many people here said, nobody is forcing you to kill anyone- you may choose non-combatant roles, and additionally there's an entirely different "national service" programme where you aid at hospitals etc (that program was made to answer the specific needs of pacifists and arab citizens (who for obvious reasons arent to keen to serve in the Israeli army).
i feel that every citizen should contribute in some way, after all the state provides things for the citizen and serving the state should be required in return. (and i know this goes against the libertarian values that many of you here believe in, but i ask you to respect my opinion)
the reason for the millitary draft is because of the ongoing conflict where i live, although i can understand the libertarians here saying that "we have the right not to be forced into the army" i feel that it is necessary, and particularly at times of emergency the state needs pretty much every man it can get. and in a problematic area like the Middle east, it is wise to have an army prepared for emergency.
contrary to what many people here said, nobody is forcing you to kill anyone- you may choose non-combatant roles, and additionally there's an entirely different "national service" programme where you aid at hospitals etc (that program was made to answer the specific needs of pacifists and arab citizens (who for obvious reasons arent to keen to serve in the Israeli army).
i feel that every citizen should contribute in some way, after all the state provides things for the citizen and serving the state should be required in return. (and i know this goes against the libertarian values that many of you here believe in, but i ask you to respect my opinion)
the reason for the millitary draft is because of the ongoing conflict where i live, although i can understand the libertarians here saying that "we have the right not to be forced into the army" i feel that it is necessary, and particularly at times of emergency the state needs pretty much every man it can get. and in a problematic area like the Middle east, it is wise to have an army prepared for emergency.
They may not be forcing you to kill, but they are forcing you to leave whatever else you might have been doing in exchange for hard work.
IcyDude said:
And if we don't want many of the things that the government has to offer? Should I perform brutal work because the poor have welfare?
In any case, a draft does not fund any of the services that the state provides. It's simply not necessary.
DropKick Murphys
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I don't respect your opinion. That opinion, and ones like it, have set our natural progression back decades, if not centuries. It has caused countless wars which are enabled by the blind acceptance of the state.
TJ
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not entirely. If everyone would find a way to solve things besides killing innocent people, and bringing millions of people to fight over there petty problems, then we could go without a military..saving billions
I Need HW Done
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I wouldnt mind it...killin people w/o being jailed ftw 
Music Makes Me Pwn
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Yes, and I should not be able to force them they should gladly chose to serve.
well, i agree that a draft is rough, and you leave whatever you had for brutal work, but in some parts of the world a draft is necessary, untill there's peace toi the very least, i believe we both agree that in an area like the Mid-east it is wise to have an army prepared for emergencies, and this system proved itself many times.
if you dont like the stuff that the government has to offer, and just want to live your regular normal life, you can renounce your citizenship, and by that you are exempt from all benefits and duties that being a citizen entails, you cant hold the stick by two of it's end, and expect governmental benefits AND exemption from state services.
Which basicly is the same as slavery.
I wouldnt mind it...killin people w/o being jailed ftw
Go away.
Why do you think that you should be able to force them to serve?
I suppose if your goal is a massive invasion of your neighboring countries, then yes, a standing army is very useful. If your goal is protecting yourself, then perhaps the draft isn't that helpful.
IcyDude said:
Then I am being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils, which is no choice at all.
Music Makes Me Pwn
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Why are you such a little girl about fighting? You could be asked to go into strategic battle planning etc, combat is not always chosen.
Answer the question.
Assuming that you have not actually been in a battle, how can you say anything about bravery or cowardice?
Some prisons get that choice but get to half their time in Jail and become marines.
if they are citizens of a state (which is something they can cancel, and become residents instead) then if the state's laws require them a millitary draft, then they need to comply, being a citizen of a state is a double edged sword- you get benefits, but you also have duties.
not necessarily, an army can also be used to defend, and to invade an attacking state to prevent your population from being attacked ( independant guerilla bands can do little to stop missle attacks, for example, only an army can do that effectively)
i would like you to give me an idea of how a state in a very violent region can effectively defend itself without a standing army, that of course, not including the idea of wavering around Nukes and saying that whoever attacks you gets his ass nuked (which is incredibely effective by the way, but beyond proportions)
why is that?
in most states, being a resident instead of a citizen does not harm your basic rights, these rights are absolute and are not effected by your citizen status.
you will be, however , denied of certain rights, such as the right to vote and to be elected, which makes sense, you are not a citizen therefore you arent a part of the state.
as a rule of a thumb, collectivism can only exist under freedom, and the state doesnt violate that rule- a state is a collective body, and you have the right of being part of it or not.
Well the implication here is that if the law states something, then it is moral to obey. Does this apply to all laws, real and conceivable? If there was a law stating that all redheaded children had to be shot, would you be one of the first to enact that law?
IcyDude said:
A defense force can certainly defend against an invading army, but if the threat of invasion is that high, would you need a draft?
If large, warhead-carrying missiles are bombarding your cities day and night, you could probably use a few interceptor missile-defense systems. If, however, the missiles being fired are not posing a severe threat, then measures appropriate to the situation should be taken.
IcyDude said:
Well, I'm being forced to make a decision between two options, both of which involve me having to work somewhere against my wishes.
IcyDude said:
Residents are not allowed to enter a country as they please - they are required to apply for permits/visas. If I have property in a country, and I am not a citizen, then I am forced to do a bureaucratic song-and-dance. I might even be permanently denied entry.
good point.
i understand the implications that you are trying to present, and i know where you are coming from- there's a fine line between basic loyalty to a state and a Totalitarian/Fascist state.
however i feel that there's a big difference between a millitary draft and a genocide of red-headed kids.
as for every law being necessarily moral- nope, not all laws are moral, but in a democratic state where your representatives (which you have voted for) have established laws, as long as they do not encourage purely immoral deeds (killing all redheaded dudes) then you have the obligation to comply, as a citizen.
although a millitary draft does violate a citizen's right for freedom (3 fucking years in my case) it is evidently established that it is necessary, therefore the violation of said freedom is necessary for the time being, contrary to the genocide of all those unfortunate enough to be born red-headed [=
sometimes an invasion comes as a complete surprise, due to that reason, in an area that is almost constantly at war, in particular when you have hostile forces around you, a draft is necessary untill standing peace is achieved- for example i would love to see the draft in my country cancelled, but i feel it is necessary in the time being, untill we can get long-lasting peace, that is.
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and that is something on which i agree with you- i dont like the influence that states have over non-citizen residents, and i think that grip should be lifted, i think that when non-citizens are not burdened by their "host state" we could reach an ideal situation like the one i described in previous posts, where you can just cancel your citizenship and live your life happily.
although, the way i understand it, residents dont owe the state any obligations, the state (at least here) gives them the right to vote for their city's municipal elections (when a mayor is elected)
i agree with you on the subject of Visas though, if you are a premenant resident , and were born in the boundaries of the state, and you are not a citizen, you should not be obliged to pay any visas to stay, howeve,r the state doesnt OWE you anything either.
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