Islam.

[polabear345]

A sport, let's say, football is an activity you partake in. A religion too, can be considered this way, wherein you partake in praying and the customs accompanied by said religion. Sports end there, Religion does not.

When you play a sport, for what purpose do you play the sport? To reach a higher level if fitness perhaps? To become skilled in said sport? These are classified as 'Goals.' The way in which religion is similar to sport is that they both have a goal attached to them. The goal of sport is physical fitness or skill. The goal of religion is inner fitness (the soul) and nearness to the creator. The ultimate goal of religion is to reach God in terms of spiritual elevation.

In order to partake in most religions, you must necessarily believe in a God. In order to partake in a sport you need no such belief.

In order to succeed at a sport, you must necessarily believe that you can achieve your goals and reach your full physical potential through the 'means' which is actually playing the sport and practising your technique. In order to succeed in religion you must necessarily believe that you can achieve a higher level of existence and that you can become a better human being and reach your full spiritual potential through the 'means' that are prayer, and seeking nearness to God and pondering over His signs and His magnificence. Just looking at the world around you and thinking, "How could this have come into existence all by itself?" Nothing comes from nothing. There has to be a cause for every single thing. Such are the laws which the Creator has laid out for us. Motivation is present in both of these entities, and that is what makes them alike.

Note: Key words: 'means' and potential and Motivation

Sports end there, Religion does not.

Sports do not end there, and neither does religion. They are very alike in many ways.

I don't really need any knowledge about Islam, or any religion at all that believes in an omnipotent and omniscient God. I'll explain why. If you cannot prove, or put forward a preponderance of evidence in support of the existence of a God, then your whole religion necessarily fails.

Existence itself is a proof that there is a God that was there forever to create everything, because, according to logic, nothing comes from nothing, correct?

There are innumerable amounts of proofs for the existence of an absolute creator. Take sperm as an example. Look at the way God has designed us. We come from a single drop. Our intensely complex brains, which scientists till today do not understand fully, our perfectly designed bodies, with muscles, bones, hands, feet that support us and help us live. All this from a drop of liquid? Really?

And even then, man is not created from the entire semen, but only a very small portion of it (sperm).

Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled [without purpose]? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen? (Qur'an, 75:36-37)

The atheist stance is that we came from nothing and we are going nowhere. This leaves no purpose in life. We all know we are going to die, so what is the point of living? Why are we on this Earth in the first place? You see, as I was saying earlier, motivation is the driving force of humanity and without it, we are nothing. What better motivation is there than the promise of proximity to our lord and master, the one who created us out of his infinite mercy and kindness, Allah?

Mohammed is a prophet, correct? I'm assuming that his words were the message of God, ergo, the Koran the message of God. If you cannot prove the existence of a God, then I can only conclude that Mohammed is talking smack. (No disrespect) For example, If someone told me a secret, and then another person confronted me asking me who told me said secret, and I responded that person x did, If person x does not exist, then I'm talking bull shit.

First of all, no disrespect taken I appreciate your polite stance on this topic. I understand that you might be inclined not to accept Mohammad or the Quran due to your stance on religion, but please try to read this with an open mind as I intend no imposition of my views upon you, but am merely stating my beliefs and support for them.

If person x does exist, then you must be speaking the truth. If you need more proof on the existence of person x, please consult me and I will show you the various miracles of the Quran.

So, it doesn't matter at all what the Koran says, anyone can still have a debate about said religion as the root node of it all is God, and if you cannot prove the existence of God anything as a resultant of said God cannot be taken seriously on the grounds of the Former; God's word.

Again, if you need more proof, please reply and ask for it and I will post more ASAP as I do not have much time right now.

Now, why do some people refer to some religious followers as stupid? It's harsh, but it's not entirely baseless. Imagine if someone believed in the existence of Faeries? Perhaps Santa Clause? I'm sure you'd probably laugh at them if they genuinely believe in such beings, much like some people would laugh at you for believing in God.

Faeries and Santa Claus are man-made entities that have been given importance and significance in history and in modern day due to the human imagination. They have any use in this universe other than entertainment or whatever. God, on the other hand is an entity who's necessity in this universe is clear as ice. Again, nothing comes from nothing, so there must be something that is ever-existent to create another something which is this universe. So, yes, laughing at someone who genuinely believes that something as insignificant as Santa Claus would probably sound reasonable because it is absurd to think that something that there is no proof for exists. God is an entirely different matter. There is proof that God exists. Existence itself is the main proof for this claim. Again, to reiterate, nothing comes from nothing, but something can definitely come from something. It is the simple concept of cause and effect.

Some people do have seemingly good justifications for their belief. The bulk do not. Please justify your belief in God and the comment of you being 'stupid' will probably be revoked, so long as your justification is reasonable.

I hope this has been reasonable enough. Please feel free to ask if you have any further questions, and I will be happy to answer.

Remember, I do not mean any offence with whatever I say on this topic to anyone. I am deeply sorry if I have hurt anyone and I ask that you please forgive me if this has happened. Malak, you brought up some very interesting points and I hope you will understand the Islamic point of view from these few posts that I have made.

Have a great day and drive safely

-Pola

 

[polabear345]

And what book would that have been? When the Western Empire fell, it had officially adopted Christianity and Islam did not yet exist.

The Bible of course. God has never left any society at any time without guidance.

It's a test of different lengths, of different difficulties, to people of different abilities, with the rules of the test never being laid out for everybody.

This is true. It is a test that will be graded with complete justice and the position that every person in the world occupies will be taken into account. No person will be judged on why his/her predestination warranted them to be in a specific state when they were born or why there looked a certain way or why they were white or black. The only things we will be judged for is the things we had control over during our lifetime. This, I believe, is the highest form of justice. You are right, there are no set rules for the test, and as the rules change from person to person, so does the grading of the test.

People die to save others; the dead are incapable of "feeling good."

I do not necessarily agree with this statement.

They feel good about their sacrifice the moment before they die and they feel good that they have saved someone they loved and they feel good that the person they love will live on and lead their own lives due to their sacrifice.

Except you think all the unbelievers will go to hell and suffer eternally, correct? That's stupid.

No. Ignorance is bliss. This concept is present within Islam as well. If a person does not know of God or has not been informed by anyone of God's existence or has not been thoroughly convinced of God's existence, that person will die as an unbeliever but will be judged by the circumstances he/she was given. If they had no clue about the creator or what He had commanded, they will be exempt from punishment and will be sinless. Did you know that? The only people that will go to hell are those that clearly recognised God's signs and decided to ignore them because of his/her worldly desires and desire never to let go of things that drag a soul down. I had a friend who was convinced completely about the existence of God, but he had a drinking habit. He died a few years later from liver cancer without accepting Islam solely due to his attachment to alcohol. These are the type of people who will be punished.

Every single baby that is born is born sinless and (we believe) a Muslim. Whatever free will he has and whichever way he exercises it will determine what place he has in the hereafter. I.E. If a baby is born to a Christian and dies within the years before his/her puberty and age of understanding and differentiating between right and wrong, that child will go straight to heaven, no questions asked. Those who are mentally ill and do not accept Islam will go straight to heaven, no questions asked. God provides compensation. If you do not get something in this life, you get it in the next.

 

[Jimmy]

The Bible of course. God has never left any society at any time without guidance.

But the Empire had already made Christianity its official religion for almost 100 years before its fall.

I do not necessarily agree with this statement.

They feel good about their sacrifice the moment before they die and they feel good that they have saved someone they loved and they feel good that the person they love will live on and lead their own lives due to their sacrifice.

All that goes through the mind of somebody who makes a split-second decision to save somebody's life?

The only people that will go to hell are those that clearly recognised God's signs and decided to ignore them because of his/her worldly desires and desire never to let go of things that drag a soul down. I had a friend who was convinced completely about the existence of God, but he had a drinking habit. He died a few years later from liver cancer without accepting Islam solely due to his attachment to alcohol. These are the type of people who will be punished.

And what are the signs of which you speak?

 

[polabear345]

But the Empire had already made Christianity its official religion for almost 100 years before its fall.

And it seems that they did not follow it. Had they done so, they might have survived.

Timothy 4:1-2

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

I am in no way defending the Bible as we know it today because it has been changed over time. No doubt back then there were many, much clearer verses that talked about tolerance towards other religions, but these are the ones in the present version and these I will present. Please do not ask me to explain why one verse contradicts another. This is one that I found about tolerance and since intolerance is the main thing that contributed to the fall of Rome, this verse would apply in whatever state and wording it was in back then. Remember, the Bible hadn't had much time to become adulterated by the time Rome fell, and thus, in the context of it being the word of God, it would have contained verses signifying the importance of tolerance to other religions. Had they heeded this advice of the Bible, their empire might not have fallen. As you know, religion was not applied in their daily lives as it was meant to be. A lot of the time, throughout history, you see that religion was merely a tool, used to control people and justify wrong actions by claiming that the Bible endorsed them and deceiving illiterate people.

All that goes through the mind of somebody who makes a split-second decision to save somebody's life?

Yes, there is always a sense of deep satisfaction when someone gives their life for a person or a cause. The person smiles inside when they feel that they are dying to protect someone they love.

Have you heard of 'Life flashing before your eyes' in the split second before you die? If that is possible, then why is not feeling satisfaction possible? I can feel satisfied in a split second when someone brings good news to me. It doesn't take time to think about why you would feel satisfied at the news. When something is positive and makes you happy, it makes you happy in a split second. There is no step by step process. So yes, I believe that they can feel satisfaction in the last split second of their life.

And what are the signs of which you speak?

http://miraclesofthequran.com/index.php

You may take them as you will. I will also link you to a video if you would like to watch something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SbI1w2xH50&feature=related - Pt 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mpgs-R8fWQ - Pt 2

Also, bear in mind that the Quran IS NOT a book of science. It is a book of morals. The Quran contains scientific miracles and mathematical miracles in it to show that it is in fact the absolute word of God, but the purpose of the Quran is not to reveal the secrets of science and math to humans. God says that humans have their intellect to achieve that. There would be no challenge if He simply laid it out before us. The thing we cannot define ourselves are morals, and those are what God has guided us using his books.

 

[easy killed]

It is clearly a lot of guys in sythe dont know or how islam works. Well i keep it simple go on youtube and search dr zakir naik and listen to his lecture on islam. Specifically watch the one where he lectures with Dr.William cambell.

 

[polabear345]

A religion of "peace" my sweaty ass..

Ignorance at its finest.

It is clearly a lot of guys in sythe dont know or how islam works. Well i keep it simple go on youtube and search dr zakir naik and listen to his lecture on islam. Specifically watch the one where he lectures with Dr.William cambell.

Zakir Naik is a joke. He defaces the religion of Islam with his arrogant speech. He thinks Yazid deserves Allah's pleasure. I don't suggest you listen to him unless you want to learn things that have no correlation to true Islam.

 

[TheBailey]

Islam was made by a man who suddenly seen a prophet christianity was made by a man who was a god and their was proof of jesus curing people in jeruselum and plenty of evidence in books muhammad has no proof hence why christianity is the main religion and most powerfull only reason islam is the 2nd most popular religion is because you muslims are from pakistan where you cant afford condoms. End off.

 

[polabear345]

Islam was made by a man who suddenly seen a prophet christianity was made by a man who was a god and their was proof of jesus curing people in jeruselum and plenty of evidence in books muhammad has no proof hence why christianity is the main religion and most powerfull only reason islam is the 2nd most popular religion is because you muslims are from pakistan where you cant afford condoms. End off.

Answer my PM please

The Bible says to stone women once they have committed adultery. You overlook that fact and move on to claims which you cannot support. I.E. That the Quran says to bury daughters alive. The Quran was the very book that abolished that practice.

Jesus cured the sick because medicine was flourishing at that time. Muhammad brought literature because the literary arts were flourishing. Each prophet brought the best of the specialisations of their time period in order to prove the existence of one God.

 

[khalsa1430]

Something for all is supposed to be a forum for "intillegent discussion." Religion is illogical and by no means a valid medium for intelligent discourse.

 

[malakadang]

When you play a sport, for what purpose do you play the sport? To reach a higher level if fitness perhaps? To become skilled in said sport? These are classified as 'Goals.' The way in which religion is similar to sport is that they both have a goal attached to them. The goal of sport is physical fitness or skill. The goal of religion is inner fitness (the soul) and nearness to the creator. The ultimate goal of religion is to reach God in terms of spiritual elevation.

Yes, but you've missed the point. Sports partake in x activity to achieve y consequence. Religions partake in x activity to achieve y consequence. It is the y consequence in Religion that separates it from Sport, the belief in God that makes the big difference.

In order to succeed at a sport, you must necessarily believe that you can achieve your goals and reach your full physical potential through the 'means' which is actually playing the sport and practising your technique. In order to succeed in religion you must necessarily believe that you can achieve a higher level of existence and that you can become a better human being and reach your full spiritual potential through the 'means' that are prayer, and seeking nearness to God and pondering over His signs and His magnificence.

Let's analyze this:

Fitness. Does fitness exist? I can prove it if you like, but, I'll assume you concede its existence as cited above.
Physical potential, again, I can prove its existence, but you've conceded it above. All things you've cited have been proved to exist, the potential to become say an NBA player. It is possible to become an NBA player, NBA players do exist, and people can become an NBA player following a pathway in the sport Basketball. However, should someone desire to become said NBA player and decide to do Synchronized diving with the intention to get into NBA they would be silly.

Now, the existence of God has not been proved, so therefore it differs from any goal a sport might be aimed for. What if for example someone believed that Cricket would give you the ability to fly? This would be silly, it's the same sport you partake in, but it's the consequence that changes everything. You cannot fly, Humans have not been proved to be able to fly, as such, you would be deemed silly.

Just looking at the world around you and thinking, "How could this have come into existence all by itself?" Nothing comes from nothing. There has to be a cause for every single thing. Such are the laws which the Creator has laid out for us. Motivation is present in both of these entities, and that is what makes them alike.

[/QUOTE]Ahh, this is a tangent of the First Cause Argument.

Let be begin by letting you know about the axiom called 'Existence exists'. This axiom is rather simple, existence either exists, or it doesn't. We know that existence exists, look around if you don't think so. Now, let's retrace causality as far back as you want. Let's pretend there was a 'time' where there was non-existence, we'll call this nothing. In Nothing, nothing can be created, correct? However, if something where to be created from Nothing it would presuppose existence and thus Nothing wouldn't be there. Existence precedes any entity, even God (No disrespect if it's taken that way) If hypothetically God can either exist or not with my word, let's say for a moment he does not exist. Existence would still exist. If hypothetically he did exist, he would exist, however, existence would have always existed alongside him, and probably before him. If you follow the axiom, essentially Existence has always existed, you cannot create existence without first existing yourself.

Also, with the First Cause argument, citing God as the First Cause is special pleading. God would be bound by another cause, would he not. This further begs a question then what is the first cause, as I accept that an infinite regress cannot exist. The First Cause is existence. Existence is axiomatic whereas God is not. Existence can be established through a priori to be the un caused cause whereas God cannot.

Note: Key words: 'means' and potential and Motivation



Sports do not end there, and neither does religion. They are very alike in many ways.

Yes, but not the way in which we are arguing. Should we be arguing are they activities, I would accept.

Existence itself is a proof that there is a God that was there forever to create everything, because, according to logic, nothing comes from nothing, correct?

God is something? He came from Nothing? Special Pleading.

There are innumerable amounts of proofs for the existence of an absolute creator. Take sperm as an example. Look at the way God has designed us. We come from a single drop. Our intensely complex brains, which scientists till today do not understand fully, our perfectly designed bodies, with muscles, bones, hands, feet that support us and help us live. All this from a drop of liquid? Really?

Appeal to Incredulity. What about a seed, it creates a monolithic tree. Perhaps the evolutionary theory may give some information as to how we evolved into such 'perfect bodies'. Also, designed hints a designer.

And even then, man is not created from the entire semen, but only a very small portion of it (sperm).

Follows on with above.

Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled [without purpose]? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen? (Qur'an, 75:36-37)What about all the other billion sperms, did Allah reject them?

The atheist stance is that we came from nothing and we are going nowhere. This leaves no purpose in life. We all know we are going to die, so what is the point of living? Why are we on this Earth in the first place? You see, as I was saying earlier, motivation is the driving force of humanity and without it, we are nothing. What better motivation is there than the promise of proximity to our lord and master, the one who created us out of his infinite mercy and kindness, Allah?

The atheist stance is not that we come from nothing, the Atheist stance is merely the rejection in the belief of God. Also, can you prove that there is a purpose in life (please do not use God as 'proof'). Also, may I ask you a question, why is a circle round? Honestly, just because you can ask a question, doesn't mean there's an answer. Why are squares 4 sided, why are octagons 8 sided? Because Allah did it? Evidence of Allah, please.

First of all, no disrespect taken I appreciate your polite stance on this topic. I understand that you might be inclined not to accept Mohammad or the Quran due to your stance on religion, but please try to read this with an open mind as I intend no imposition of my views upon you, but am merely stating my beliefs and support for them.

If person x does exist, then you must be speaking the truth. If you need more proof on the existence of person x, please consult me and I will show you the various miracles of the Quran.

If person x does exist, then you are genuienly telling the truth, but it does not mean the truth your telling is truthful. For example, if person x told you 1 + 1 = 3 and you told someone that, you are telling the truth in one sense, but not telling the truth in another. Attempt to prove the existence of God, I don't particularly like looking at the Koran for proof, but, feel free to use it as you wish.

Again, if you need more proof, please reply and ask for it and I will post more ASAP as I do not have much time right now.

I don't need more proof, I need proof, I don't have any atm.

Faeries and Santa Claus are man-made entities that have been given importance and significance in history and in modern day due to the human imagination. They have any use in this universe other than entertainment or whatever. God, on the other hand is an entity who's necessity in this universe is clear as ice. Again, nothing comes from nothing, so there must be something that is ever-existent to create another something which is this universe. So, yes, laughing at someone who genuinely believes that something as insignificant as Santa Claus would probably sound reasonable because it is absurd to think that something that there is no proof for exists. God is an entirely different matter. There is proof that God exists. Existence itself is the main proof for this claim. Again, to reiterate, nothing comes from nothing, but something can definitely come from something. It is the simple concept of cause and effect.

There is no proof that God exists. Even if you are so inclined to accept the First Cause argument that God did everything, which God? Even still, you haven't proved God at all, you've merely proved a First Cause.

I hope this has been reasonable enough. Please feel free to ask if you have any further questions, and I will be happy to answer.

Not really, it's an attempt, however.

Remember, I do not mean any offence with whatever I say on this topic to anyone. I am deeply sorry if I have hurt anyone and I ask that you please forgive me if this has happened. Malak, you brought up some very interesting points and I hope you will understand the Islamic point of view from these few posts that I have made.

Don't worry, I don't find you offensive at all, at least you are posting things that are somewhat reasonable as opposed to tautologies.

Have a great day and drive safely

-Pola

I can't drive on my own, I'm 16 =,=

 

[rstrader1471]

It seems Islam is best known with Terrorism than any other religion. (fact)

Well I can say that mainly atheists, Christians etc are known for people getting fucked off their faces, kicking the shit out of their wives, raping, drugging people.

 

[So.Cal Life]

It's another group of people who can't find their own answers