Address the Clan Double Standard

I think we all know what ongoing event this is about... Not going to name it directly so I don't tarnish any outstanding reputations on this site.

In January, I anti-scammed a customer off-site after asking permission from a mod. The mod in question told me because it was off-site, I didn’t need to collaborate with sythe staff. To the staff, it wasn't important because I was not going to be liable to the site's members. I anti-scammed by taking a "bet". Afterwards, the person I anti-scammed created an account on Sythe. A report was brought on site and because of this I was liable to sythe's rules. I was held liable for both the "bet" amount and the winnings, subtracting the amount I was scammed. I ended out having to pay back the equivalent of the winnings from the bet, as the bet amount was near identical to the correct anti-scam amount. If I had not paid back the difference of [BET + WINNINGS - ANTISCAM], I would have remain banned.

Why is the policy different for clans? There have been dozens of scam reports on Sythe against clan members. The owners get away with only refunding the bet amount. I understand that the owners are not the direct person scamming, but those ranks are their employees. Just as partners who own a service together are liable for the other partner should they scam-quit, a clan should be liable for the scamming of their members.

Clans say they don't conduct business on Sythe. I didn't conduct business on Sythe. I was held liable to pay out the winnings, otherwise I would have been banned from using this forum. Clans are not held fully liable, over and over again. Either require them to update their Terms of Service to conform to the rules of the site, or don't allow them to advertise here.

 

[DragonSlayer14]

Clans use the excuse this can be exploited by gamblers working with hosts to clean the clan, but the opposite is also very true. Clans can use this exploit to avoid paying huge winnings by working with the host and having him "scam".. Clans should be held liable for the bet + winning amount. This will force them to make sure they vet and trust their hosts completely up to X amount bet + potential winnings. The reasoning that the gambler can exploit this is quite poor and can be circumvented by taking proper deposits.

Also for those reading I think this thread was made in response to this scam report: 6.000 USD Dispute with Dragon Dyce - Twistedtaco (KO)

 

I'll start by saying, so long as you are a Sythe member you are liable for your own actions on and off-site. So, although you conducted the anti-scam off-site your actions would be held liable on Sythe should someone report it. The problem was that the user you anti-scammed wasn't through Sythe it was through 3rd party. Therefore Sythe can only punish you for your actions should someone report you, in your case you were reported.

I think it really is a double-edged sword effect here though. And I do agree that if you are a clan owner that you should be held liable for ALL losses, not only a scammed amount. So should someone play blackjack off-site and win, but be scammed they should be given the amount they would have received should it have been the original host. I don't necessary disagree with KO where he mentions "A New Rank Scammed two customers, one customer made this report and another customer, both were refunded the full amount they bet 0.4 bitcoin and $1500, Full Bet amount paid as per our clan rules, No clans payout winnings this would open up huge scams of ranks and customers working together to bankrupt clans it would not be possible, our clan rules have been the same for years." In which people would work against the clans to take winnings and whatso, but that is the price you pay for having a service. I'd say clans/leaders should be fully liable for all losses.

 

[S]

Gambling/betting discords seem to create and result in far more problems than their actual use in terms of member engagement and activity. The countless of reports we've had over the years, alongside the multitude of malicious, shady, and untrustworthy users that many a time, run, own and control many of these Discords is most-concerning. There are evidently exceptions to this rule, where many other gambling Discords are legitimate and honest.

Furthermore, the effort and due diligence required to effectively and fairly rule on many of these reports leaves the staff team at the whim of these Discords being forthcoming and more importantly, honest and ethical.

I would propose to outright ban these types of Discords being advertised on Sythe, and put forth side-wide warnings/announcements to gamble/bet at said Discords at your own risk, and that reports stemming from these Discords will not be honoured on Sythe.

Finally, and understandably, this may embolden said Discords to actively scam more, and or take advantage where possible. However, in saying that, if that is the path they opt into, then irrespective of whether we permitted these Discords on Sythe or not, it would be now abundantly clear the true nature of all these Discords.

@Sythe

 

Gambling/betting discords seem to create and result in far more problems than their actual use in terms of member engagement and activity. The countless of reports we've had over the years, alongside the multitude of malicious, shady, and untrustworthy users that many a time, run, own and control many of these Discords is most-concerning. There are evidently exceptions to this rule, where many other gambling Discords are legitimate and honest.

Furthermore, the effort and due diligence required to effectively and fairly rule on many of these reports leaves the staff team at the whim of these Discords being forthcoming and more importantly, honest and ethical.

I would propose to outright ban these types of Discords being advertised on Sythe, and put forth side-wide warnings/announcements to gamble/bet at said Discords at your own risk, and that reports stemming from these Discords will not be honoured on Sythe.

Finally, and understandably, this may embolden said Discords to actively scam more, and or take advantage where possible. However, in saying that, if that is the path they opt into, then irrespective of whether we permitted these Discords on Sythe or not, it would be now abundantly clear the true nature of all these Discords.

@Sythe

I mean I naturally will agree with all of what you said, although KO has been a long standing member of RS gambling, and from what I can tell he is paying out the guy that was scammed. That doesn't mean it should happen where people get scammed and all, but sometimes it is the game we play to make the money we make. I said my opinion above, and I agree that the discords/chats and all should be banned from advertisement on Sythe.

 

[thisissparta1234]

I mean I naturally will agree with all of what you said, although KO has been a long standing member of RS gambling, and from what I can tell he is paying out the guy that was scammed. That doesn't mean it should happen where people get scammed and all, but sometimes it is the game we play to make the money we make. I said my opinion above, and I agree that the discords/chats and all should be banned from advertisement on Sythe.

Not to mention that I'm kinda confused by whats the big drama over here. Seems quite straightforward, and I dont see hosts 'scamquitting' everytime to avoid a 'big'(you guys honestly think 1 bitcoin is 'big'? How naive ROFL.) payout. So that conspiracy theory is honestly pretty fucking retarded lmao.

 

Not to mention that I'm kinda confused by whats the big drama over here. Seems quite straightforward, and I dont see hosts 'scamquitting' everytime to avoid a 'big'(you guys honestly think 1 bitcoin is 'big'? How naive ROFL.) payout. So that conspiracy theory is honestly pretty fucking retarded lmao.

1 Bitcoin is a lot of money to a lot of people considering that in the USA, a first world country, more than half of its citizens can't afford an unforseen $500 charge.


Back to the point, now the owner of the clan is demanding that his ranks pay the remainder of the amount owed, despite never having been informed of this policy earlier. In previous instances of scams where hosts were scammed by ranks after paying out their splits, the owner has paid out the victims from his own pocket, but now that the charge will hurt his wallet beyond the scammer's buy-in he is going after his own employees' money. If they do not comply, they will be deranked. This is cut-and-dry extortion and any reports of this by an individual where a user is blackmailed by another user would result in a ban. Because it is in a clan, Sythe appears to want to take a hands off approach. The double standard here is pretty sickening.

 

It's your responsibility as a business owner to make sure all your partners follow your rules. if my worker who made 100m deposit scammed 500m i couldn't just say "take this 100m because that's all he deposited". It's just a disaster waiting to happen if they see their hosts keep taking larger bets than they're allowed and do nothing about it. (I might not be fully updated on what happened but afaik almost all other hosts knew about the bet that brought this up, and did nothing about it)

 

It's your responsibility as a business owner to make sure all your partners follow your rules. if my worker who made 100m deposit scammed 500m i couldn't just say "take this 100m because that's all he deposited". It's just a disaster waiting to happen if they see their hosts keep taking larger bets than they're allowed and do nothing about it. (I might not be fully updated on what happened but afaik almost all other hosts knew about the bet that brought this up, and did nothing about it)

To me it seems like the other hosts for some reason let WIN hold their splits of the pot, which any logical gambler would say "hey that's not supposed to happen" but our buddy who scammed then got scammed decided it was a bright idea. Oh well lmao, it was dumb on the other hosts part to allow him to do so.