Vouches..

I would have to say you do, so you actually know that they were legitimate for your trade, and not just that you can trust him....

For example, BSGP Sellers irl friend starts up a Sythe account, BSGP Seller could vouch for him to say that he would trust him, and confide in his mate to not be an ass and scam, so he wouldn't, for most threads its alright (OMM app) etc, but I dont beleive they should count them towards vouch thread and vouch count.

Just my 2 cents .

Huh, why not?

I agree with you on that part, only because it would be a IRL friend. Doing such actions would send a false security, only because you know such individual outside of Sythe. But when you join here on Sythe, you start as an untrusted newcomer. You build trust, and people begin to trust you. I don't see why it's such a big deal to include the "trust" vouches as a vouch, mainly for the fact you earned it. And remember, when you read vouches, it's quality over quantity.

What if it's an IRL friend? If so, you'll just have to state that you know them IRL in the vouch. That's not false security, since there's a rule that you have to state you know them IRL. Yeah, you build trust, and people will start giving you more non-trade vouches, people high levels of trust are the users who predominately have non-trade vouches. I don't see that's the big deal to include the "non-trade" vouches. You can already check the quality; if they come from a newcomer, you necessarily wouldn't think it's trustworthy. On the other hand, if it came from an administrator, you could think the vouch is trustworthy.

 

[SmperFidelis]

What if it's an IRL friend? If so, you'll just have to state that you know them IRL in the vouch. That's not false security, since there's a rule that you have to state you know them IRL. Yeah, you build trust, and people will start giving you more non-trade vouches, people high levels of trust are the users who predominately have non-trade vouches. I don't see that's the big deal to include the "non-trade" vouches. You can already check the quality; if they come from a newcomer, you necessarily wouldn't think it's trustworthy. On the other hand, if it came from an administrator, you could think the vouch is trustworthy.

I think we're on the same side here. I agree with what you said, it's just the IRL vouch stipulation. I feel most people wouldn't know that an IRL friend vouch needs a statement containing on how they know them IRL. And the only way you know it is an IRL friend vouching them is an IP check, which only mods can do, which could take months or years to be found. But as long as they state they are an IRL friend, I am fine with that.

 

I think we're on the same side here. I agree with what you said, it's just the IRL vouch stipulation. I feel most people wouldn't know that an IRL friend vouch needs a statement containing on how they know them IRL. And the only way you know it is an IRL friend vouching them is an IP check, which only mods can do, which could take months or years to be found. But as long as they state they are an IRL friend, I am fine with that.

Good, but they should know considering there is a sticky: http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=412717. Just report the post if you think it's fake, and a moderator can check soon. Normally, only newcomers post fake vouches, not respected members of the community that have been here for awhile.

 

[TheFifaTrader]

Huh, why not?



What if it's an IRL friend? If so, you'll just have to state that you know them IRL in the vouch. That's not false security, since there's a rule that you have to state you know them IRL. Yeah, you build trust, and people will start giving you more non-trade vouches, people high levels of trust are the users who predominately have non-trade vouches. I don't see that's the big deal to include the "non-trade" vouches. You can already check the quality; if they come from a newcomer, you necessarily wouldn't think it's trustworthy. On the other hand, if it came from an administrator, you could think the vouch is trustworthy.

K, dicing clan named cora dyce, the owner makes it, his irl friend joins, gets instant general rank (trust), he then scams later on ... thats why.

^True story tw.

 

K, dicing clan named cora dyce, the owner makes it, his irl friend joins, gets instant general rank (trust), he then scams later on ... thats why.

^True story tw.

Okay? Based on your story, everyone who receives non-trade vouches will scam? Scamming happens everyone, even users who have hundreds of "trade" vouches, your example doesn't work.

 

[Emperor Nero]

I think the point of the thread is that someone advertises they have 700 vouches, and a good 1/3rd of them are just people saying "Know him, he's trusted. Vouch" or OMM app things. Someone arranges their trade vouches first and who will want to scroll through 700 vouches to make sure that each and every one is a vouch that represents a trade. They are padding their vouch count for advertising purposes, I believe that is what Punkerpunk meant in the OP.

 

Vouch inflation, basically? That doesn't matter, considering the people who predominately have non-trade vouches are moderators, ex-moderators, highly active marketeers, etc. Like I've said, you're not going to see a newcomer with many non-trade vouches.

 

[Emperor Nero]

They're not arguing that it is going to be a newcomer. I believe he is directing this towards the exact people you are talking about, using the vouches as advertising. If I can say [700 Vouches] in front of my gold shop it is going to look better than saying [350 Vouches] and that creates an unfairness when in fact a lot of your vouches aren't even for trades. Now I may be incorrect, but I believe that is what he meant.

Edit: Again, who is going to crosscheck 700 vouches to make sure they're all quality - but not that it would matter if you are dealing with a trusted trader.

 

They're not arguing that it is going to be a newcomer. I believe he is directing this towards the exact people you are talking about, using the vouches as advertising. If I can say [700 Vouches] in front of my gold shop it is going to look better than saying [350 Vouches] and that creates an unfairness when in fact a lot of your vouches aren't even for trades. Now I may be incorrect, but I believe that is what he meant.

Okay, and? How is it unfair, everyone has the equal opportunity to receive these vouches; everyone started out as a newcomer. Actually, the people who have tons of vouches are active marketeers, most of which are trade vouches. Moderators who are not active in the market don't have like 500+ vouches, regardless people are going to trust them because they are moderators. Please name me one person you think has a high amount of vouches that has mostly non-trade vouches, I can't think of one.

Edit: Again, who is going to crosscheck 700 vouches to make sure they're all quality - but not that it would matter if you are dealing with a trusted trader.

Like I've said, people with that high amount of vouches don't have mostly non-trade vouches, they are active in the market. Even then, you can check the quality of the non-trade vouches by seeing who it's from; there's a difference between a newcomer vouch, and a moderator vouch.

 

[Emperor Nero]

I am not trying to argue with you, I am just trying to point out what the actual argument of the thread is because in my previous posts I took it off base and tried to argue something that the OP wasn't.

They're saying that vouches in vouch threads that are given just because they know the person shouldn't be allowed to be counted towards the number that you can advertise because they only represent personal trust and no actual activity that required trust...

 

[Tyler]

Here's the few examples I can think of for vouches:

A)


B)


C)


D)


E)




Now to me A, B, C and E should be allowed in a vouch threads, because they all show signs of trusting the user and say that the person is trustworthy. But D is a little different - to me it says that this person would be a good OMM and really isn't a vouch.

Which ones are you guys saying shouldn't be counted?

Why dont we just make a vouch template? Becuase one of the main reasons people put up fake vouches is because their so easily to take other vouches like "Vouch, sold me 100M!"

Something like this.

Vouch for _________ we traded __________ and _____ went first.


not only that it'd be easy to seperate vouches from reccomendations.

 

I am not trying to argue with you, I am just trying to point out what the actual argument of the thread is because in my previous posts I took it off base and tried to argue something that the OP wasn't.

Okay, well I'm just replying to your points.

They're saying that vouches in vouch threads that are given just because they know the person shouldn't be allowed to be counted towards the number that you can advertise because they only represent personal trust and no actual activity that required trust...

Alright, and I'm just giving my opinion:

http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=10633314&postcount=22
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=10634291&postcount=28
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=10634409&postcount=32
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=10638082&postcount=41
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=10638520&postcount=43
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=10639363&postcount=45
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=10639880&postcount=47
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=10639931&postcount=49

 

[JamRsPins]

Prime example of a clearly faked/self vouch which I doubt I can even report.
http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=1360173

Claims he's new to Sythe (Which any idiot knows isn't true), has a vouch from an account with 0 Posts, created on the same day as him, posting a vouch 10 or so mins after he posted his 'free' defender service? Probably same I.P, probably different. Although it's not the point. In this case, I don't even think it's for oneself to determine the validity of it, people shouldn't be able to do that, clearly a self vouch.

Edit:
Examined ImageURL to expose his Photobucket account http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z357/ManiacalAge/Vouch.png

A simple image search of his Photobucket url returns an archived account selling thread by the user of 'Jtfman Brand', in 2010. - http://www.sythe.org/archive/index.php?t-975125.html

Given it's archived, I can't find his profile, but I can bet he was banned for scamming, and it's probably same I.P too, if not sufficient proof to say it's the same guy.. But yeh, there's my point... evader and self/fake voucher.

 

Prime example of a clearly faked/self vouch which I doubt I can even report.
http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=1360173

Claims he's new to Sythe (Which any idiot knows isn't true), has a vouch from an account with 0 Posts, created on the same day as him, posting a vouch 10 or so mins after he posted his 'free' defender service? Probably same I.P, probably different. Although it's not the point. In this case, I don't even think it's for oneself to determine the validity of it, people shouldn't be able to do that, clearly a self vouch.

That's probably a fake vouch, and can be reported, which I just did.

It's not related to the "non-trade" vouches we're talking about.

 

[JamRsPins]

That's probably a fake vouch, and can be reported, which I just did.

It's not related to the "non-trade" vouches we're talking about.

Check my edit, he's definitely due a ban now.

Also I think it's partly related. People shouldn't be able to post vouches that havn't happened via a Sythe trade, or without proof of it.

 

Check my edit, he's definitely due a ban now.

Alright, I've reported the post with the additional information.

Also I think it's partly related. People shouldn't be able to post vouches that havn't happened via a Sythe trade, or without proof of it.

Depends, if you're talking about fake vouching, just report the post and it can be cross-referenced by a moderator. If it's about the vouches we're talking about in this thread, check out my posts in this thread, I've explained it many times.

 

[JamRsPins]

Alright, I've reported the post with the additional information.



Depends, if you're talking about fake vouching, just report the post and it can be cross-referenced by a moderator. If it's about the vouches we're talking about in this thread, check out my posts in this thread, I've explained it many times.

I've seen them. Frankly, having a problem with people supporting OMM applications is a slap in the face to admins. Clearly there are not dumb, and there is no way that such posts are even nearly considered when approving OMM's. There's not really an argument there.

It's ONLY when it's posted as an actual vouch, on a vouch thread, where it becomes an issue - in my opinion. Because that's now a fake vouch, right? It's not a vouch for a trade that happened, hence it should not be included. If it's not a vouch, it is a fake vouch. Hell, if you asked them to do it, its almost a self vouch. Exactly the same as what I just posted.

 

It's ONLY when it's posted as an actual vouch, on a vouch thread, where it becomes an issue - in my opinion. Because that's now a fake vouch, right? It's not a vouch for a trade that happened, hence it should not be included. If it's not a vouch, it is a fake vouch. Hell, if you asked them to do it, its almost a self vouch. Exactly the same as what I just posted.

Not necessarily, vouches shouldn't be just a "recording a trade," it's also an approval of trust. There's no restriction placed on vouches that says they can only be done by trade. If you've asked them to do it, that's fake vouching, and it's a bannable offence. I've never seen this as an issue before, I don't understand why it was brought up now.

 

[JamRsPins]

Not necessarily, vouches shouldn't be just a "recording a trade," it's also an approval of trust. There's no restriction placed on vouches that says they can only be done by trade. If you've asked them to do it, that's fake vouching, and it's a bannable offence. I've never seen this as an issue before, I don't understand why it was brought up now.

Right, but your missing the point, that the only incentive someone could have to post a 'vouch' on a 'Sythe' 'Vouch' 'Thread' would be to give other users the impression that a trade occurred as this is acknowledgement of that. Whether or not intentional, that's the impression it's gonna have. No? You say it's an 'approval of trust'. Well why do you need to share that with the world? Why does it need to be counted as a vouch? Hell it's suspicious at the least. Clearly just another tactic to get free FAKE vouches. Every scammer on this site wouldn't scam their mum, their best friends, people they'd known for years. Does that mean that if his whole family tree felt the need to vouch on his thread, this should be acceptable and credible? Just because I can say I think my best friend Joe Bloggs is a cool guy, who I've known on RuneScape for 10 years, does that mean he's gonna be equally as trustworthy to a stranger? Whether or not he asked, wouldn't be relevant. Because you wouldn't know. Like I said, there's only one incentive for doing it. It's dumb, it's wrong. Hell, I don't even have time to count all my vouches, never mind add in fake ones. Wait there aren't any fake ones, because people don't do that. It's wierd. It's suspicious. It's 99% done on request. :|

If every person on Sythe was aware that it's considered acceptable for mates to vouch for you saying your trustworthy/would never scam, you'd see newcomers with 50 'vouches'. Who is anyone to say that the user had requested them to post that?

 

Right, but your missing the point, that the only incentive someone could have to post a 'vouch' on a 'Sythe' 'Vouch' 'Thread' would be to give other users the impression that a trade occurred as this is acknowledgement of that.

No, like I've said, it is NOT restricted to a record of a trade.

Whether or not intentional, that's the impression it's gonna have. No? You say it's an 'approval of trust'. Well why do you need to share that with the world? Hell it's suspicious at the least. Clearly just another tactic to get free FAKE vouches.

No, if it's a vouch like this, I know it's not a record of a trade, it's an acknowledgement of trust:

Vouch for Wulfspade1, I would trust him.

Why not, if someone I trust is starting a business, I'll vouch and say I'll trust him. I've seen this happen since I've ever came here; moderators, administrators, community members, regular people, etc. ALL do this, are they all suspicious? Absolutely not. Do you think all those vouches given out by administrators, moderators, etc. are fake? Absolutely not. If you suspect someone self-vouching, report it and it'll be dealt with. Otherwise, most of them are legitimate. Predominately, people who vouch for others they haven't traded with are users who are active in the community. It's newcomers a VERY small amount of time. Even then, you can tell if it's a fake vouch or not.

Every scammer on this site wouldn't scam their mum, their best friends, people they'd known for years. Does that mean that if his whole family tree felt the need to vouch on his thread, this should be acceptable and credible? Just because I can say I think my best friend Joe Bloggs is a cool guy, who I've known on RuneScape for 10 years, does that mean he's gonna be equally as trustworthy to a stranger?

Who cares, why does that matter? Let them vouch if they want, it's up to you to decide the credibility.

Whether or not he asked, wouldn't be relevant. Because you wouldn't know. Like I said, there's only one incentive for doing it. It's dumb, it's wrong. Hell, I don't even have time to count all my vouches, never mind add in fake ones. Wait there aren't any fake ones, because people don't do that. It's wierd. It's suspicious. It's 99% done on request. :|

No, there's not only one incentive. I've vouched people on Sythe that I've trusted, so should I be banned for fake vouching? There's no way you can prove that. Like I've said, most of those "fake" vouches are done by newcomers, and you can tell if it's fake. Otherwise, it's done by active members of the community who are vouching on the basis of trust the have for the other user. This has NOT been in an issue in the past, and this thread seems to have blown it out of proportion.

If every person on Sythe was aware that it's considered acceptable for mates to vouch for you saying your trustworthy/would never scam, you'd see newcomers with 50 'vouches'. Who is anyone to say that the user had requested them to post that?

Uh, if people trust you, they can vouch for you. But, it's up to check the quality of the vouch, like you do with "trade" vouches. If it's by a newcomer, you could think it's not trustworthy enough. If it's by a administrator, you could think different. Also, if a newcomer had 50 vouches, I'm sure that he would receive a TwC. Those things are done by a case-by-case basis. Like I've said, this whole thread is blown out of proportion out of something that was NEVER an issue in the past.