Vouches..

Well, here are my thoughts on the subject:

First of all, OMM recommendations shouldn't be put into a vouches page unless they specifically say "Vouch for User." That's just my opinion though, to be honest, an OMM support could somewhat be considered a vouch seeing as an OMM recommendation usually requires one to trust the person being recommended.

Secondly, many of you simply think that a vouch is something written after a successful trade. However, this isn't wholly true. While it's a custom around here for traders to vouch each other after a successful trade, vouches aren't solely meant for feedback based on trades.

Vouches are mainly used to express feedback and trust. Those that are handed out after a trade are considered feedback vouches. The ones that don't involve trades are considered "trust" vouches.

For example:

"Vouch for Tim, I trust him."

"Vouch for Tim, sold him 100M, I went first."

The first vouch simply shows that I trust Tim. It doesn't specify an amount, however, it is a vouch. Therefore, it should be in his vouch thread.

The second vouch is just the first one which is backed up with a trade & amount. It's commonly used in vouch threads.

 

Vouches aren't restricted to having to trade with the user. If I trust a member, I'll vouch him. It's up to the user to see the quality of the vouches, it's subjective anyway. He'll deem the vouch worthy or unworthy, just like people do with trade vouches.

 

[Emperor Nero]

Vouch for punkerpunk13, great idea.

Okay, go add that to your vouch thread. Truly, this is a pain in the ass to have to scroll through someone with 300 vouches to see only 60 of them are actual trades and the rest are just people saying he is trusted. That is an exaggeration of course but if someone can say I have 300 vouches and then someone else says I have 175 vouches, but the 300 vouch person half of the vouches are just his friends saying he is trusted he is still going to get the volume of trades even through the 175 vouch person is all legit. Who is going to look through 300 vouches to make sure they're all quality. Someone will go through 20 - 30 vouches and then stop assuming the rest are legit.

A vouch should be a representation of the trust that is acquired through a trade or some sort of interaction that involves trust. This is like fake vouching, I mean I can talk to someone for a few hours on the internet and think I trust them but if they're actually trustworthy in a trade is another matter.

 

[the_dealer]

"Official" vouches, that go into your vouch thread should be, in my opinion, only be about trades.

Others, like recommendations, "vouch bumps" etc. shouldn't be put on.

 

[Punkerpunk13]

I'm not implying that the vouches/reps or w/e that are given should be discarded entirely, cause i honestly don't.. i simply think that there should be a difference between the two.. they shouldn't be mixed.

It's getting taken way too far.. I honestly think that they should be put on a vouch thread, but they shouldn't be numbered...

 

[Sypherz]

I'm not implying that the vouches/reps or w/e that are given should be discarded entirely, cause i honestly don't.. i simply think that there should be a difference between the two.. they shouldn't be mixed.

It's getting taken way too far.. I honestly think that they should be put on a vouch thread, but they shouldn't be numbered...

Exactly. With huge numbers of vouches, users are lured into a false sense of security in some cases.

 

[Alteranz]

How many friends do you think all these new members have???
If the person has many "non-trading vouches", chances are they're already pretty well known and respected within the community. I just still don't see vouch inflation as a problem, let alone an issue big enough to undergo the huge task of controlling the differentiation between trade and non-trade posts.

I just see this as an unnecessary thing that would have to be regulated and policed across the community - there's 16,000+ vouch threads (approx) in the vouches forum alone, and going through all of them to create change as well as retroactively applying the rule would be a gargantuan task.

 

Vouch for punkerpunk13, great idea.

If this vouch is for someone you trust, it's cool.

Okay, go add that to your vouch thread. Truly, this is a pain in the ass to have to scroll through someone with 300 vouches to see only 60 of them are actual trades and the rest are just people saying he is trusted. That is an exaggeration of course but if someone can say I have 300 vouches and then someone else says I have 175 vouches, but the 300 vouch person half of the vouches are just his friends saying he is trusted he is still going to get the volume of trades even through the 175 vouch person is all legit. Who is going to look through 300 vouches to make sure they're all quality. Someone will go through 20 - 30 vouches and then stop assuming the rest are legit.

First of all, people only post the non-trade vouch if they actually do trust the user. Guess who has many of those vouches? It's moderators, ex-moderators, prominent market users, etc. No ones going to see a newcomer with 300 non-trade vouches. Vouches are more than just a "recording of a trade," it shows how trustworthy you are. They can't be restricted to only trades. Like I've said, those vouches are from people who think the user is trustworthy, it's up to the user to see if those vouches are trustworthy. If they come from a newcomer, they necessarily wouldn't think it's trustworthy. On the other hand, if it came from an administrator, they could think the vouch is trustworthy.

A vouch should be a representation of the trust that is acquired through a trade or some sort of interaction that involves trust. This is like fake vouching, I mean I can talk to someone for a few hours on the internet and think I trust them but if they're actually trustworthy in a trade is another matter.

Not necessarily, that isn't an "official" definition. I don't think many users vouch for members only knowing them for a few hours... regardless, It's up to the user to check the trustworthiness of the vouches. If it's a newcomer, you might have you doubts. If it's from an administrator, you will think differently.

"Official" vouches, that go into your vouch thread should be, in my opinion, only be about trades.

Others, like recommendations, "vouch bumps" etc. shouldn't be put on.

I'm not implying that the vouches/reps or w/e that are given should be discarded entirely, cause i honestly don't.. i simply think that there should be a difference between the two.. they shouldn't be mixed.

It's getting taken way too far.. I honestly think that they should be put on a vouch thread, but they shouldn't be numbered...

Exactly. With huge numbers of vouches, users are lured into a false sense of security in some cases.

What's the point of that? It's basically the same thing, except for the fact you're separating the non-trade and trade vouches. While the non-trade vouches are still an example of trustworthiness, coming from who it is, it's subjective after all.

I've never seen this as an issue before. Most members with high amounts of non-trade vouches are users like moderators, ex-moderators, administrators, etc. No one is going to see a newcomer with 300 of those non-trade vouches. It's up to the user to check their trustworthiness; if it's from someone who joined today, it might not be so trustworthy. If it comes from an administrator, you could think differently. It's still an example of trust, one way or the other. It's up to the user to determine what they think is a "vouch" or what isn't a "vouch." Someone could believe that trades don't matter as much, if you have 10 moderator vouches. Someone could believe that non-trade vouches are useless, and they need proof of trade. And, someone could accept them both.

 

[Sypherz]

I understand where you are coming from, and you bring up valid points. I'm not arguing for some gigantic task to be initiated. Do I think that including these should be an intractable offence? Absolutely not. I simply thing that in some cases a reminder might be issued, asking a user to lighten up his thread in extreme cases. (Especially with OMM supports, etc.)

 

[Emperor Nero]

If a person can get a vouch 'just because' then I should be able to get a vouch for graphics work that I actually take time and effort to do, and not just because someone thinks I am trusted. This community is littered with double standards.

Edit:

Also, as I said, who is going to look through 200 - 300 vouches to make sure they are all legitimate vouches and not just people saying 'I trust him, vouch.' I see your point, but a vouch should be something more than perceived trust, it should be a record of trusted events and recommendations should be separate and not countable as vouches in a vouch count. As Sypherz said, it shouldn't be a infractable offense it should just be something that people are reminded of.

 

[cosrob97]

Here's the few examples I can think of for vouches:

A)

Vouch, did a 50m trade

B)

Vouch, I've known him very long time and I trust him

C)

I recommend him for omm. Vouch

D)

I recommend him for omm

E)

Prob 1 and only trusted guy who does it , and even for free !!

Now to me A, B, C and E should be allowed in a vouch threads, because they all show signs of trusting the user and say that the person is trustworthy. But D is a little different - to me it says that this person would be a good OMM and really isn't a vouch.

Which ones are you guys saying shouldn't be counted?

 

If a person can get a vouch 'just because' then I should be able to get a vouch for graphics work that I actually take time and effort to do, and not just because someone thinks I am trusted. This community is littered with double standards.

There's no "just because," you vouch on the basis of whether or not you think the person is trustworthy or not. Also, we're not discussing that.

Now to me A, B, C and E should be allowed in a vouch threads, because they all show signs of trusting the user and say that the person is trustworthy. But D is a little different - to me it says that this person would be a good OMM and really isn't a vouch.

Which ones are you guys saying shouldn't be counted?

They want to not allow anything from B - E. Basically, no non-trade vouches. Also, I agree with you, I don't think "D" should be allowed. I saw plenty of those on TBT's vouch thread, and I was contemplating reporting them or not.

 

[Sypherz]

I feel as though both "C" and "D" belong in an OMM app rather than a vouch thread.
"A" is certainly valid, "E" is questionable.

I think I've changed my mind though. "B" does seem valid to a certain degree. Although it would be nice to see vouch threads a little bit more organized >_<
This is just my opinion. I only speak for myself. I think i'm done with this topic.

 

[Emperor Nero]

I feel as though both "C" and "D" belong in an OMM app rather than a vouch thread.
"A" is certainly valid, "E" is questionable.

I think I've changed my mind though. "B" does seem valid. Although it would be nice to see vouch threads a little bit more organized >_<
This is just my opinion. I only speak for myself. I think i'm done with this topic.

I agree with this. Anything that is OMM specific deserves to be in an OMM thread. "B" for me is questionable though, because I can know someone on the internet for a long time but you can never really know someone over the internet. I also agree, my peace has been said and I will depart.

 

[cosrob97]

Well I'll like to say example B and C were already discussed in the staff lounge and over 90% of staff who voted agreed they should still be allowed.

For staff reference: http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=1319299

Edit: it was also decided if somebody was abusing example B by posting on multiple threads of one user the staff would make it only 1 of them would be used.

For example:

http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=9775136&postcount=2
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=9716000&postcount=2
http://sythe.org/showpost.php?p=9679565&postcount=2

Only one of these would be used.

 

I agree with this. Vouches should be formed solely from when a trade is formed. These should be the only things on a vouch page that count towards a vouch count.

These 'I trust this user...' vouches should not count towards the official vouch count but could be used in OMM applications, services and the like.

 

[Alteranz]

OMM recommendations and such related things have never been, and should not be, counted as vouches (unless they contain a "vouch" phrase). Simple

If you see a member using these statements in any thread apart from their OMM application, report it and they will be removed.

 

[Kwebbeltjes]

I see what you are trying to say, but remember, it's not the quantity, it's the quality of these vouches. If I was judging someone based on vouches, I would take in vouches like the ones I received that you linked in the OP into account, just not as much as say, a 1B trade with the other user going first.

A vouch is just positive feedback towards a user. Anyone can receive feedback for anything, whether it is being nice towards someone, helping them transfer GP, recommending them for OMM, or just a straight trade. It's mainly a personal aspect whether you want to count positive feedback as a vouch.

Totally agree with you

 

[TheFifaTrader]

A Vouch is another person indicating that they have a level of trust for a member - it's sole purpose is to show others that particular members trust you, regardless of whether or not it's associated with an actual trade.
I just don't see it as an issue here? I trust Karl, and I'd probably trust him with a rather large sum of wealth, but I shouldn't have to complete a trade to let others know I have faith and confidence in him.

I would have to say you do, so you actually know that they were legitimate for your trade, and not just that you can trust him....

For example, BSGP Sellers irl friend starts up a Sythe account, BSGP Seller could vouch for him to say that he would trust him, and confide in his mate to not be an ass and scam, so he wouldn't, for most threads its alright (OMM app) etc, but I dont beleive they should count them towards vouch thread and vouch count.

Just my 2 cents .

 

[SmperFidelis]

I would have to say you do, so you actually know that they were legitimate for your trade, and not just that you can trust him....

For example, BSGP Sellers irl friend starts up a Sythe account, BSGP Seller could vouch for him to say that he would trust him, and confide in his mate to not be an ass and scam, so he wouldn't, for most threads its alright (OMM app) etc, but I dont beleive they should count them towards vouch thread and vouch count.

Just my 2 cents .

I agree with you on that part, only because it would be a IRL friend. Doing such actions would send a false security, only because you know such individual outside of Sythe. But when you join here on Sythe, you start as an untrusted newcomer. You build trust, and people begin to trust you. I don't see why it's such a big deal to include the "trust" vouches as a vouch, mainly for the fact you earned it. And remember, when you read vouches, it's quality over quantity.