Lowering standards to TWC/DNT suspicious newcomers

[Elekon]

I suggest that there should be a system in place to TWC/DNT suspicious newcomers. If there is already one in place (looking at PerfectCrime case) I suggest to lower the standards/reqs to apply TWC/DNT to them. Many newcomers join Sythe everyday and some of them already know how everything works. Making threads in skilling, gold buying/selling and vouch thread on their first day. How can someone new to the site already know how it works, how the sections work and donate on their first day knowing donations can be seen as a form of trust by some users?

I will state the @Angel Cake case as an example. User joined on April 11th 2020, created a vouch thread, a questing services thread, a skilling services thread, an avatar/UT request thread, hiring workers thread and also donated. All of it on the same day he joined Sythe. 2 days later he already offers MM services and creates other threads such as buying miniranks to gain even more ''rep''. User has also been reported 5 times because he had similarities of other banned members (https://www.sythe.org/posts/42781379/ , https://www.sythe.org/posts/42799332/ , https://www.sythe.org/posts/42888575/ , https://www.sythe.org/posts/42942817/ , https://www.sythe.org/posts/43106908/ ). We all knew he would end up scamming, we just did not know when.

I'm not looking to blame staff/admins with this thread because they are doing a great job and are not the issue here. I suggest to add a procedure towards obvious ban evaders to catch them early on and avoid damage they will eventually do when they scamquit. On top of being scammed, there will be newcomers that will turn themself into scammer to regain some of their losses which will bring even more scams.

 

If you believe someone is evading, find proof and report them. As everyone says Sythe is a free market. People can buy as they choose, sell as they choose, advertise as they choose (so long as it isn't false advertisement). And tbh the site isn't very intricate, anyone with basic thread based forums knowledge should be able to learn Sythe quickly or already know how to use it, besides rules that is. Many ban evaders are reported though and some fall through the cracks, it's how the cookie crumbles. No support though, the system is fine as it is now.

 

I like the idea, but no support. Too hard (and unfair quite frankly) to TWC/DNT someone without proof. If you have proof you can report them as Bryan said.

Also, many service providers on Sythe offer their services on other websites. So coming here and posting such threads within the first few days isn't a farfetched concept.

 

[Elekon]

If you believe someone is evading, find proof and report them. As everyone says Sythe is a free market. People can buy as they choose, sell as they choose, advertise as they choose (so long as it isn't false advertisement). And tbh the site isn't very intricate, anyone with basic thread based forums knowledge should be able to learn Sythe quickly or already know how to use it, besides rules that is. Many ban evaders are reported though and some fall through the cracks, it's how the cookie crumbles. No support though, the system is fine as it is now.

Finding proof to report a ban evader isn't as easy as it seems and I feel like you know it when I look at your most recent ban evader reports. I don't understand the reasoning behind free market here but I agree with you on the part that the site isn't very complicated to figure out. Ty for your feedback

I like the idea, but no support. Too hard (and unfair quite frankly) to TWC/DNT someone without proof. If you have proof you can report them as Bryan said.

Also, many service providers on Sythe offer their services on other websites. So coming here and posting such threads within the first few days isn't a farfetched concept.

Thanks for your response. You are right on the part that it is harsh to DNT/TWC someone without proof. I also agree that a service provider from another website could come here to expand his business, you are 100% right.

Maybe the procedure could be something as accounting that suspicious behavior for more into the ban evader reports?

 

I’m gonna come back to this and edit my answer when I’m at PC.


However, for the moment I will say although I agree with this idea I’m not sure how to correctly implement it. Like Bryan states it’s a free market... People go for that better deal no matter what even if the seller isn’t that trusted. It sucks but what can you do? Everyday like you stated, new users are made. All these idiots making brand new accounts with GP in their name or WhateverGold are obviously up to nothing good... That’s where we rely on people to catch ban evaders but as stated that is indeed difficult.

 

[Superfluous]

"False positives" are a major downside of labeling people with TWCs/DNTs too soon. What would you do if you joined a website and were immediately marked as suspicious? You'd leave, right?

Many Sythe users are also familiar with other sites similar to Sythe, which can partially justify the actions of someone like Angel Cake. It's always easy to say "I knew it" in hindsight, but Angel Cake didn't break any rules until scamquitting so there wasn't much to be done. A negative feedback system could help address this, but even still, a comment like "hey I think this guy is gonna scamquit" isn't going to fly. People need to use their brains when picking people to do business with on Sythe, and that is an issue we will never overcome.

One last point is that, perhaps in line with your suggestion, I TWC'd a new user yesterday for farming 20 gold sale vouches in 6 hours. That didn't break any rules but was so atypical that it raised eyebrows. However I'm not sure we could write a rule to address this situation - Would we have TWC'd at 15 vouches? 10? 5? It's impossible to draw a line, so I think that we should continue to make TWC decisions on a case-by-case basis. DNT (essentially a market ban) is reserved for situations that used to result in perm bans, so we will likely never apply one without proof of wrongdoing.

 

[Potatobotter25]

I don't really think this suggestion is necessary. Simply using some common sense of "oh this dude joined yesterday and only has a few vouches," would be enough to keep people away from being scammed.

More awareness about how a bigger amount donated does not = trust would be nice though, considering that people have a tendency to use their total donated as an indicator of how much they should cap their trades at, which (spoiler alert) doesn't work because they could have multiple trades at the same time, then scam out.

Overall though, I agree with @Superfluous . Lowering the bar on TWCs and DNTs for new people would most likely reduce their favorability with the site and decrease their chances of coming back.

 

[Elekon]

I’m gonna come back to this and edit my answer when I’m at PC.


However, for the moment I will say although I agree with this idea I’m not sure how to correctly implement it. Like Bryan states it’s a free market... People go for that better deal no matter what even if the seller isn’t that trusted. It sucks but what can you do? Everyday like you stated, new users are made. All these idiots making brand new accounts with GP in their name or WhateverGold are obviously up to nothing good... That’s where we rely on people to catch ban evaders but as stated that is indeed difficult.

Good feedback. You are also right about the fact that some people go for the best deal and sometimes they end up trading a scammer.

"False positives" are a major downside of labeling people with TWCs/DNTs too soon. What would you do if you joined a website and were immediately marked as suspicious? You'd leave, right?

Many Sythe users are also familiar with other sites similar to Sythe, which can partially justify the actions of someone like Angel Cake. It's always easy to say "I knew it" in hindsight, but Angel Cake didn't break any rules until scamquitting so there wasn't much to be done. A negative feedback system could help address this, but even still, a comment like "hey I think this guy is gonna scamquit" isn't going to fly. People need to use their brains when picking people to do business with on Sythe, and that is an issue we will never overcome.

One last point is that, perhaps in line with your suggestion, I TWC'd a new user yesterday for farming 20 gold sale vouches in 6 hours. That didn't break any rules but was so atypical that it raised eyebrows. However I'm not sure we could write a rule to address this situation - Would we have TWC'd at 15 vouches? 10? 5? It's impossible to draw a line, so I think that we should continue to make TWC decisions on a case-by-case basis. DNT (essentially a market ban) is reserved for situations that used to result in perm bans, so we will likely never apply one without proof of wrongdoing.

True, I would leave the site and go somewhere else. I am too harsh with the DNT but a TWC could do it I believe. About the Angel Cake part I have tried reporting him just like other people but it wasn’t enough sadly. I wish it could have been avoided which is why I made this thread after he got banned. Maybe if his behavior was accounted for more in any of the reports he could have been banned earlier?

A feedback system could help here, I guess.

As for the Goliath TWC, I did not know it could be possible and it’s a good thing that it can be done. Maybe if every staff would do things the way you do them there would be less scams?

I appreciate your feedback especially since you are open to suggestions and improving the site (eg. warning account buyers when the seller gets banned)

Looking at the responses here I can see that I was asking for something too harsh that could bring false positives easily. Seeing the RaS filled with the same problems everyday with people getting scammed by vaders made me create this thread honestly, and I am not even the one dealing with the reports or getting scammed there.

I am still content to see that there is a TWC system in place that is still active for the suspicious newcomers.

Thank you all for your feedback, we can close this.

 

[Lorenzo]

I didn't read everything but I will say this. Some new people that join are legit. You would be having to walk a thin line. No support.

 

[Superfluous]

Thank you all for your feedback, we can close this.

Req'd close