The Start

[RS2Sms]

Oh, if God exists, we can understand him. Do you suggest that God would transcend logic?



Do you think that that was actually God talking to a man in the form of a burning bush, or a piece of common mythology from that area that tried to show how hard to understand the universe was at that time?

I'm suggesting that the human mind has its capabilities, As we know because no-one has been able to determine somethings in the world yet, If the human mind was capable of understanding EVERYTHING, Don't you think that this argument wouldn't be happening right now? God is a more complicated bieng then anything on this planet, Or in the galaxy. I believe that after we die, If we have done good in our lives we go up to heaven with God, even after we die we do not see God , We see Jesus (the son) in my belief, God (the Father), God (the son/Jesus) and the Holy spirit are all one. You may ask if thier all one then surely your contradicting your own theory by saying that nobody can see God. And people saw Jesus without dying.

If your thinking that, Nobody can see God in his FULL Glory. Take this as an example. The Sun: We can not see the FULL sun, As we will die from the heat, Yet the sun can send its rays down to us, We can witness those rays of the sun they brighten the day, whatever else and we live through the day, Same with God, We can not see his full glory, Yet he can send his son, we can witness the sun without dying.

And I dont think God was taking the form of a burning bush. I think god was just communicating Via the burning bush, How many other bushes have thier been in the past that burn, Yet do not hurt nor harm anybody that touches them, And no i do not believe it was common mythology, Moses had just run away from Egypt after finding that hes not Pharoah's son, You believe that he just imagined this bush? Then Explain the 10 Plagues. If you do not believe in God you think that they were co-incidential? The egyptians first-borns were all killed. Yet those who put the blood of a lamb on thier doorpane the angel of death passed over them. Also the parting of the red sea, it opened up for the Hebrews, Yet closed on the pharoah and his gaurds.

Explains Shredder.

 

[imnotcrazy357]

Ok forget the quote...I try to post a quote that I think applies and there's always someone. Despite you saying your argument is towards the quote alone, shredder still made the point i was getting at. Not being able to prove one theory 100% dosn't make it equal with another idea.

Someone? I'm simply enterpriting your quote to work against you, as you enterprite to work against me.

Without a full thought being completely proven, it is almost as useless as no thought at all.

A unproven theory is important yes, but It is impossible to measure these theorys against others. For these theories to be ranked against others is illogical. For a theory to become fact, It could take only a little piece of information, or a giant piece. These theories can be very decieiving.

A theory thought to be 90% completed, with a study could completely open up another perspective to a thoery, and cause it to be only 10% of what it once was.

Also a theory 30% completed, with being studied upon could be completed in only a tiny piece of information, before, unthought upon.


saying one theory is more correct over another, with all the proof you have, until is becomes a proven fact. Is of equal importance to all other theories.

 

[Shredderbeam]

I'm suggesting that the human mind has its capabilities, As we know because no-one has been able to determine somethings in the world yet

We're not capable of instantaneous thought. These things take time to figure out.

If the human mind was capable of understanding EVERYTHING, Don't you think that this argument wouldn't be happening right now?

The capability of the human mind to reach a certain point does not necessarily entail it having to always exist at this point.

God is a more complicated bieng then anything on this planet

Any creator must be at least as complex, or more so, than its creation. The universe is certainly extremely complex. Where would such an enigma as God come about?

How many other bushes have thier been in the past that burn, Yet do not hurt nor harm anybody that touches them,

I wouldn't take an account of such a story from the Bible to be literal fact. If Moses was the only witness willing to testify, I don't see how you can provide corroboration that the event actually occurred.

And no i do not believe it was common mythology, Moses had just run away from Egypt after finding that hes not Pharoah's son, You believe that he just imagined this bush? Then Explain the 10 Plagues. If you do not believe in God you think that they were co-incidential? The egyptians first-borns were all killed. Yet those who put the blood of a lamb on thier doorpane the angel of death passed over them. Also the parting of the red sea, it opened up for the Hebrews, Yet closed on the pharoah and his gaurds.

I don't think that any of those things happened. I think that they were part of the common mythology of the time.

 

[RS2Sms]

We're not capable of instantaneous thought. These things take time to figure out.

We've had 2008 years, Yet we haven't come anywere near proving a theory. If you beliieve that the earth was created from a single celled organism. Where did this organism come from? It can't have existed forever? The only thing that can exist forever is something/someone that us humans do not understand. Otherwise we would have been able to figure out what it was.

The capability of the human mind to reach a certain point does not necessarily entail it having to always exist at this point.

Are you suggesting that one day we will be able to explain the unexplainable?We have no way of going back to the past and use the evidence that has been provided. Although it may not be valid proof. If you think outside a human's limitation. It could very well be possible.

Any creator must be at least as complex, or more so, than its creation. The universe is certainly extremely complex. Where would such an enigma as God come about?

If you read Genesis God came about before the creation of the universe. It does not state where God came in, As it believes he has been there forever. Something must have been there forever, If there was a time when nothing existed, How could something come after it? Religion suggests that God has no beginning nor end. We know not when or how he came to be, But we believe that he created the world. We also do not know what will happen after death, But we believe we will spend ETERNITY in heaven or hades.

I wouldn't take an account of such a story from the Bible to be literal fact. If Moses was the only witness willing to testify, I don't see how you can provide corroboration that the event actually occurred.

If you can not accept the testification of one man, Why should you accept that of a hundred? If you choose not to believe you will not believe.

I don't think that any of those things happened. I think that they were part of the common mythology of the time

So because of common mythology A sea has been named the Red Sea? Because of mythology Jerusalem is known as the Holy land? We did not name these countries, Nor call them the Holy Land. Nor did we say where Jesus was born or anything like that. Our ancestors who were around at the time did. They were there, They witnessed the events. They named places accordingly.

Shredder, Tell me what you believe in, What you think to be correct, Whether if you believe there is a God, And i will try and find an argument. Don't be so dull as to not accept the argument of others. You and I both know we will never know for sure wether these things happen, But what to you is more logical, A single organism existing from nowhere, Or a bieng existing for all time.

 

[Runescape.GOLD]

How can something be created out of nothing? The universe must have bin created by someone or something!

yea im with you the universe has to be created by someone or something.

 

[Shredderbeam]

We've had 2008 years, Yet we haven't come anywere near proving a theory. If you beliieve that the earth was created from a single celled organism. Where did this organism come from? It can't have existed forever? The only thing that can exist forever is something/someone that us humans do not understand. Otherwise we would have been able to figure out what it was.

Nobody knows for certain what the original life form was. It's currently being pondered in the field of abiogenesis.

Are you suggesting that one day we will be able to explain the unexplainable?We have no way of going back to the past and use the evidence that has been provided. Although it may not be valid proof. If you think outside a human's limitation. It could very well be possible.

True, there are limitations, but I don't think there's something so mysterious that humans inherently cannot understand it.

If you read Genesis God came about before the creation of the universe. It does not state where God came in, As it believes he has been there forever. Something must have been there forever, If there was a time when nothing existed, How could something come after it? Religion suggests that God has no beginning nor end. We know not when or how he came to be, But we believe that he created the world. We also do not know what will happen after death, But we believe we will spend ETERNITY in heaven or hades.

If God can be eternal, then why can a naturalistic cause of the universe not be eternal?

If you can not accept the testification of one man, Why should you accept that of a hundred? If you choose not to believe you will not believe.

First, there are inherent problems with one man testifying. If he so wished, he could completely fabricate an event, and nobody would be the wiser.

Second, I don't really know if these stories are to be accepted upon the same basis as Aesop's Fables, or actual historical events.

So because of common mythology A sea has been named the Red Sea? Because of mythology Jerusalem is known as the Holy land? We did not name these countries, Nor call them the Holy Land. Nor did we say where Jesus was born or anything like that. Our ancestors who were around at the time did. They were there, They witnessed the events. They named places accordingly.

They are called what they are by people who believed.

Shredder, Tell me what you believe in, What you think to be correct, Whether if you believe there is a God, And i will try and find an argument. Don't be so dull as to not accept the argument of others. You and I both know we will never know for sure wether these things happen, But what to you is more logical, A single organism existing from nowhere, Or a bieng existing for all time.

1). I believe that the universe was created from entirely natural processes.
2). I do not believe in any sort of creator God.
3). Humans are highly evolved pack animals.

That's about it.

To me, life arising from non-life is actually more logical than a human-minded spirit watching over all life.

 

[Gekkostate]

There are alot of theories but the real fact is we may never be able to know. We do see things that violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics though. Micro-black holes present in the Quantum Foam pop in and out of existence by borrowing energy. Some scientists speculate that if one of these could borrow enough energy that it could come into permanent existence. Some people think that this could have had something to do with sparking the Big Bang.Thats just one of the possible explanations though.

The more energy that these micro-black holes and particles/anti-matter particles borrow to come into existence, the less time that they will exist for. The Second Law of thermodynamics is not necesarily broken it is merely bent because in the end we still have what we started with. It's like having nothing, you magically find 5$ on the ground and then immediately misplace it so you still have what was started with (simple explanation). Besides the laws of thermodynamics apply to closed systems and the universe as we know it is hard to determine whether or not it is a closed or open system. It has been presented that inside a laboratory one of these micro black holes could be made to come into permanent existence through intense electric fields but creating such a scenario inside a lab is very difficult with our current technology.

 

[imnotcrazy357]

If God can be eternal, then why can a naturalistic cause of the universe not be eternal?

The univserse is not an all powerfull living being. It would be illogical to think that something not all powerfull to have existed forever. Naruralistic Causes have no power over themselves, isn't it just simply cause and effect?

 

[RS2Sms]

Nobody knows for certain what the original life form was. It's currently being pondered in the field of abiogenesis.

so there must have been an original form of LIFE, a single cell does not classify as life, because it could only produce 1 bieng, and as we know 2 bieng;s are needed to reproduce.

True, there are limitations, but I don't think there's something so mysterious that humans inherently cannot understand it.

theres plenty of things humans can not understand, example the Bermuda triangle.

If God can be eternal, then why can a naturalistic cause of the universe not be eternal?

Because nature has no control over itself, A greater bieng or creature that has complete control has over itself, and thus can control the nature around it, As we know beasts are not as intellegent as humans, And humans can not create a universe, Thus a greater bieng must have done it.

First, there are inherent problems with one man testifying. If he so wished, he could completely fabricate an event, and nobody would be the wiser.

As i said in my past argument there is nor ever will be a way to clarify that this has happened. However if you want more info you should talk to a priest,bishop etc.

Second, I don't really know if these stories are to be accepted upon the same basis as Aesop's Fables, or actual historical events.

Once more we will never know, But i doubt people who were not slaves would carry over 10 tonnes of bricks to build a pyramid, nor make a statue dedicated just to Pharoah.

They are called what they are by people who believed.

1). I believe that the universe was created from entirely natural processes.
2). I do not believe in any sort of creator God.
3). Humans are highly evolved pack animals.

That's about it.

To me, life arising from non-life is actually more logical than a human-minded spirit watching over all life

1) Where did the nature that began this process come from?
2) If we began as apes, then the apes kept in zoo's as we speak will one day develop to be humans. Yet in 2008 years there hasn't been a single report of this happening.

The thing is its not a human-minded spirit watching over all life, Otherwise we would be able to completely understand how God works. And understand how the Earth was created etc.

 

[Shredderbeam]

The univserse is not an all powerfull living being. It would be illogical to think that something not all powerfull to have existed forever. Naruralistic Causes have no power over themselves, isn't it just simply cause and effect?

Basically, yes.

so there must have been an original form of LIFE, a single cell does not classify as life, because it could only produce 1 bieng, and as we know 2 bieng;s are needed to reproduce.

A single cell does classify as life. Also, there are a number of ways that life could have developed from non-life.

so there must have been an original form of LIFE, a single cell does not classify as life, because it could only produce 1 bieng, and as we know 2 bieng;s are needed to reproduce.

There was actually a study done on that. It's no more dangerous than any other part of the ocean, and just seems to be that way because of media hype.

Because nature has no control over itself, A greater bieng or creature that has complete control has over itself, and thus can control the nature around it, As we know beasts are not as intellegent as humans, And humans can not create a universe, Thus a greater bieng must have done it.

Yet things can still happen from natural causes. Stars can explode without a button being pushed.

As i said in my past argument there is nor ever will be a way to clarify that this has happened. However if you want more info you should talk to a priest,bishop etc.

Already did. We had a nice little debate, which he ended by telling me to "have faith".

Once more we will never know, But i doubt people who were not slaves would carry over 10 tonnes of bricks to build a pyramid, nor make a statue dedicated just to Pharoah.

Well, they could have been workers, or perhaps the Pharaoh had slaves from other campaigns.

1) Where did the nature that began this process come from?
2) If we began as apes, then the apes kept in zoo's as we speak will one day develop to be humans. Yet in 2008 years there hasn't been a single report of this happening.

1). Originally, the Big Bang.
2). Apes and us evolved from a common ancestor. And, even if we had evolved from apes, we did it in around 8 million years. No ape evolved into a human in two millenia.

The thing is its not a human-minded spirit watching over all life, Otherwise we would be able to completely understand how God works. And understand how the Earth was created etc.

To read the Bible, one might disagree.

 

[imnotcrazy357]

Basically, yes.

ok so what caused the universe to begin moving? to make matter exist? to create something out of nothing? there has to be something to cause the reaction.

 

[Shredderbeam]

ok so what caused the universe to begin moving? to make matter exist? to create something out of nothing? there has to be something to cause the reaction.

I have no idea. I've never claimed to know. It's basically unknown, except that you imagine that God did it.

 

[jebckr]

The way I try to imagine the big bang coming about is like a graph coming infinatly closer to isamatope, but never touching it.

See that line, it will go on forever, coming closer and closer to the x and y axis, but NEVER touch it. Just the same way, assuming the universe is expanding, it is infinatly smaller the father back in time you go. An infinatly dense atom at one time, if you will.

To say, where it came from is a funny question to think about as it has really always existed. Hard to fathom, but just my take on it.

 

[Reapers Runescape]

I have a simple answer.

I believe god created it.

Flame me if you will but thats my simple view.

God created matter, and everything else.

( it's my view and im not shoving it down anyones throat )

 

[jebckr]

I have a simple answer.

I believe god created it.

Flame me if you will but thats my simple view.

God created matter, and everything else.

( it's my view and im not shoving it down anyones throat )

What, my elaborate math related example didn't sway you?

Anyhow, as much as I'd love to see proof as to why you THINK god created everything, you have a belief...whatever works for you.

 

[Fouisgras]

The way I try to imagine the big bang coming about is like a graph coming infinatly closer to isamatope, but never touching it.

See that line, it will go on forever, coming closer and closer to the x and y axis, but NEVER touch it. Just the same way, assuming the universe is expanding, it is infinatly smaller the father back in time you go. An infinatly dense atom at one time, if you will.

To say, where it came from is a funny question to think about as it has really always existed. Hard to fathom, but just my take on it.

Nice try at connecting what you're doing in math class to SFA, but you fail...

Problems with your graph: there is no negative time... or time=0 either.. there is no "beginning of time persay" but let's just assume there is....

You need to chop off the entire left side of the X axis... you should label your axis.. and you need to realize the importance of log/exponential graphs instead of hyperbolic graphs. According to your hyperbola, negative time ago, the universe was increasing negatively apparently.... right....

Also, your upper curve is going the wrong way.. what you have now represents that as time moves on the universe is getting smaller, while you yourself says that it expands.

Nice.

Edit: Oh yeh.. it's spelled "asymptote", too.

 

[TJ]

Ok but my question is, where did this so called God come from?

Does the bible explain this?(no really, does it? dont wanna say something and get flamed for it...)

 

[imnotcrazy357]

Ok but my question is, where did this so called God come from?

Does the bible explain this?(no really, does it? dont wanna say something and get flamed for it...)

Well a simple google search is all you need

We can only partially comprehend the notion of God's existence. To do so, we must use human concepts to speak of God: "without beginning or end"; "eternal"; "infinite", etc. The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). And, "Your throne is established from of old; Thou art from everlasting" (Psalm 93:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was.
To us, the notion of time is linear. One second follows the next, one minute is after another. We get older, not younger and we cannot repeat the minutes that have passed us by. We have all seen the time lines on charts: early time is on the left and later time is on the right. We see nations, people's lives, and plans mapped out on straight lines from left to right. We see a beginning and an end. But God is "beyond the chart." He has no beginning or end. He simply has always been.
Also, physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. Time has even been called the fourth dimension. But God is not matter. In fact, God created matter. He created the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing and time had no meaning (except conceptually), no relation to Him. Therefore, to ask where God came from is to ask a question that cannot really be applied to God in the first place. Because time has no meaning with God in relation to who He is, eternity is also not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.
Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning. This is because He is outside of time.

I believe this sums up your question quite nicely

 

[TJ]

So you are saying that this is more believable than unicorns?

This says that he has no begginning or end, but how is that even possible?

He always was? WTF?

Sounds like a bunch of bs to me

Im going to start a religion and make it to where i say i have no beginning and im immortal, but does this make it true? Nah i would need a holy document and millions of idiots to believe in me

Damn..all im missing is millions of idiots..

id rather admit to unicorns than i would to god

Once again, its bed time

aww how sweet, seeing how you are immortal i guess you dont need sleep?

Peace.


edit/

i took out the word bible and added holy document.

and who made the bible?

damn, so many questions..so little time

 

[imnotcrazy357]

So you are saying that this is more believable than unicorns?

This says that he has no begginning or end, but how is that even possible?

He always was? WTF?

Sounds like a bunch of bs to me

Im going to start a religion and make it to where i say i have no beginning and im immortal, but does this make it true? Nah i would need a holy document and millions of idiots to believe in me

Damn..all im missing is millions of idiots..

id rather admit to unicorns than i would to god

Once again, its bed time

aww how sweet, seeing how you are immortal i guess you dont need sleep?

Peace.


edit/

i took out the word bible and added holy document.

and who made the bible?

damn, so many questions..so little time

Please dude don't let your emotions get ahold of you, this is more or less worthless shit that you have posted, you asked for information and I provided.

I will answer these statements again, but please don't be such a bitch about you discussions when I simply provide answeres to questions you were asking.



When you show me an unicorn, I will show you Jesus.

God expands time and space. for those who belive in Christianity, after life has begun, it never ceases to exist.

^^^ above answers.

I could say evolution is nothing but a pile of shit, but I wouldn't because I'm respectable to others.

I would like you to know a few Christians that you just called idiots:
Robert Boyle
Isaac Newton
Lord Kelvin
Leonardo daVinci
Matthew Maury

You constantly make a comparison between unicorns and God, is this just a childish way for you to vent your anger? If you have a problem with my religion don't call it a load of bs, prove me, someone younger then you, wrong.

The Bible is composed of many books, written before, during, and after the time of Jesus. The Bible is not only Biblical, but is a great refrence for history, if you deny the Bible, you are denying parts of hitory we know as fact. The books of the Bible were composed at councils during the 4th or 5th century I beleive.