religion and choice.

[Shredderbeam]

No, I make my own choices, while you make your own choices... Although, because someone knows what your going to do doesn't mean you didn't make the decision.

Then you are destined to make that decision, which means you do not have free will, you only think you do.

 

[the_wippit]

Amazing according to Shredder I said he will post here and here did. So I made his choice for him and have written his descisions, So do I control you?

i laughed irl, shredder has lost his free will, and jaamal is his God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! u see where were comin from shredder? all becuase he knows what were gona do doesn't mean he forces us to do it

 

[elementalelf]

no, jamaal made an informed prediction, which is different to omniscience(sic).
Just because you predict something will happen, does not mean you know that it will.

For example:
i predict that there will be a major city-wide ban on homosexual monkeys in que bec tomorrow.

If this happens, does it mean that i am god? or does it mean that i made a guess that just happened to come true?

 

[jaamal]

no, jamaal made an informed prediction, which is different to omniscience(sic).
Just because you predict something will happen, does not mean you know that it will.

For example:
i predict that there will be a major city-wide ban on homosexual monkeys in que bec tomorrow.

If this happens, does it mean that i am god? or does it mean that i made a guess that just happened to come true?

Shredder says that if I know it will happen, then it is destined to be... Therefore if it happens it was already predetermined and I was the one who made it happen...

 

[elementalelf]

Shredder says that if I know it will happen, then it is destined to be... Therefore if it happens it was already predetermined and I was the one who made it happen...

shredder's argument was wrong, but your assumption is also wrong.
are you saying that you KNEW it happened? or that you were almost certain that it would happen?
also, you did not create the universe, "god" did, therefore everything that happens in it is a direct result of what he did.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Shredder says that if I know it will happen, then it is destined to be... Therefore if it happens it was already predetermined and I was the one who made it happen...

If someone knows that something will happen tomorrow at noon, then it is GOING to happen. Nothing else will happen, since two things will not happen at once. If this logic applies to all events in the universe, then all events in the universe are set, and will not change, ever. The universe, then, is fixed, and immovable. Explain to me how there is room for movement, or variations of deeds, please?

 

[paladen]

If someone knows that something will happen tomorrow at noon, then it is GOING to happen. Nothing else will happen, since two things will not happen at once. If this logic applies to all events in the universe, then all events in the universe are set, and will not change, ever. The universe, then, is fixed, and immovable. Explain to me how there is room for movement, or variations of deeds, please?

It does not, but you still technicly make your choices.
How I believe this works is that you still make your choices at your own free will, but they were preditermined.

 

[Shredderbeam]

It does not, but you still technicly make your choices.
How I believe this works is that you still make your choices at your own free will, but they were preditermined.

So, you make your choices according to free will, yet it's all predetermined? Let's analyze this for a moment:

Google tells me that the definition of free will is as such:

[SIZE=-1]Freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes.

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]in contrast with determinism, the doctrine of free will asserts that man is able to make choices according to his own will.

So, can we agree that free will means that a man can make his own choices, and the results of those choices are not determined already? For, if they are determined already, a man cannot really "choose" among choices. He is destined to choose what is already determined.[/SIZE]

 

[The_Flames]

If there ever had to be a main religion in the world christian it would most probably be

 

[Shredderbeam]

If there ever had to be a main religion in the world christian it would most probably be

Well, let's think. Christianity basically states that one man can take the punishment for the sins of all humanity. Is that just?

 

[jaamal]

If someone knows that something will happen tomorrow at noon, then it is GOING to happen. Nothing else will happen, since two things will not happen at once. If this logic applies to all events in the universe, then all events in the universe are set, and will not change, ever. The universe, then, is fixed, and immovable. Explain to me how there is room for movement, or variations of deeds, please?

But nothing is always a constant except for time, everything is movable. The only thing that we can not change is time. If I said that I know that you will do something, I am judging it off the things I know about you and the variables around us that can effect you choice. The things humans do are unpredictable, while the universe always has a cause and effect scenerio with certian outcomes which can be predicted... Nothing is gauranteed unless you know everything that will effect the outcome. The only way you can know the outcome is if you were all knowing. God is believed to be all knowing. And can judge what is going to happen.

Well, let's think. Christianity basically states that one man can take the punishment for the sins of all humanity. Is that just?

No, but that was that mans choice, also that was the reason he was here...
Also he is rewarded if you believe in the Christianity, he lives forever in the afterlife and gets to sit next to god, and judge all humans.

 

[Shredderbeam]

But nothing is always a constant except for time, everything is movable. The only thing that we can not change is time. If I said that I know that you will do something, I am judging it off the things I know about you and the variables around us that can effect you choice. The things humans do are unpredictable, while the universe always has a cause and effect scenerio with certian outcomes which can be predicted... Nothing is gauranteed unless you know everything that will effect the outcome. The only way you can know the outcome is if you were all knowing. God is believed to be all knowing. And can judge what is going to happen.

Yet if God knows what the decision will be, then that decision is fixed at a certain point in time. The man has no choice as to whether he wants to make another decision or not.

No, but that was that mans choice, also that was the reason he was here...

"Not my will, but yours be done."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..."

Hmm. It seems to me that God decided this.

 

[jaamal]

Yet if God knows what the decision will be, then that decision is fixed at a certain point in time. The man has no choice as to whether he wants to make another decision or not.



"Not my will, but yours be done."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..."

Hmm. It seems to me that God decided this.

Jesus was the first one god made, everything and everybody else jesus helped god make, God didn't trust whether or not a normal human man or woman could carry this taks so he gave the Earth his only begotten son. And he still has his son, and in the bible jesus talks to the devil... The devil tries to tempt jesus himself. If jesus didn't want to sacrafice himself, he wouldn't have.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Still, if I were God, I would tell Jesus that his offer was appreciated, but he didn't really need to suffer so much in order to save humanity. As an omnipotent being, I could save them myself.

 

[jaamal]

Still, if I were God, I would tell Jesus that his offer was appreciated, but he didn't really need to suffer so much in order to save humanity. As an omnipotent being, I could save them myself.

Still you see that he knew jesus would, but gave him the choice... Also god didn't want to interfere as in Gensis he says he will not appear to help us.

In the Christian beliefs, god is not leaving us here to test us he is not punishing us, he is only proving the devil wrong to prove we can not govern ourselves as imperfect beings.

And God give power to many people in the bible, but they all have flaws. God wanted a human to lead as a example for the rest of the humanity. If he did it himself it would serve no purpose.

Christian means Christ like...

 

[WhereIsTheGod]

Your belief is that all of creation is just a bet with Satan?

Satan: Hey Yahweh, bet those humans can't govern themselves.
God: K.

 

[jaamal]

Your belief is that all of creation is just a bet with Satan?

Satan: Hey Yahweh, bet those humans can't govern themselves.
God: K.

Somewhat yes, The serpent lured Eve and told her that if she ate from the forbidden tree she would become like god, She did in a way, she was able to judge here own decisions and choices right and wrong. She was given morals...

So instead of casting out the devil and letting people believe he was right, god let humans govern themselves to prove they would fail...

 

[Shredderbeam]

Still you see that he knew jesus would, but gave him the choice... Also god didn't want to interfere as in Gensis he says he will not appear to help us.[/quiote]

Well, hang on! For Jesus to make that choice, it could not have been predetermined whether or not he would allow that choice to be made.

In the Christian beliefs, god is not leaving us here to test us he is not punishing us, he is only proving the devil wrong to prove we can not govern ourselves as imperfect beings.

All of humanity's misery, triumphs, glories, and horrors are only part of a bet? That's a bit disappointing.

And God give power to many people in the bible, but they all have flaws. God wanted a human to lead as a example for the rest of the humanity. If he did it himself it would serve no purpose.

Yet the way that the Bible explains it is that Jesus took our sins. I'm sure God could have created a more fair way to do things.

 

[jaamal]

Well, hang on! For Jesus to make that choice, it could not have been predetermined whether or not he would allow that choice to be made.

According to the christian beliefs the devil's only power is the power of temptation, if he was unable to sway people's choices, then he would have no power, so the option is open, bu that doesn't mean that it will be asknowledged or taken.

All of humanity's misery, triumphs, glories, and horrors are only part of a bet? That's a bit disappointing.

Not a bet a life experience, "GOD" believed that just silencing anyone that was denying him as all knowing would only make people doubt him more, so he let us govern ourself to prove the devil wrong and then cast him away.

Yet the way that the Bible explains it is that Jesus took our sins. I'm sure God could have created a more fair way to do things.

Nothing is fair... But as a reward for taking all the sins of humanity he was rewareded: He was resurrected by "GOD" himself, his was given the power to judge every human, he will resurrect everyone who is worthy of the afterlife, he sits next to "GOD" in heaven, he will be the one to cast the devil out of his throne on Earth, he is glorfied and remembered forever, and last he is the one who gets to judge you at the so called "Pearly Gates".

I think this was well worth his human life...

 

[Shredderbeam]

According to the christian beliefs the devil's only power is the power of temptation, if he was unable to sway people's choices, then he would have no power, so the option is open, bu that doesn't mean that it will be asknowledged or taken.

I would rather prefer St. Thomas Aquinus's views.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas

Not a bet a life experience, "GOD" believed that just silencing anyone that was denying him as all knowing would only make people doubt him more, so he let us govern ourself to prove the devil wrong and then cast him away.

Again, there are better ways to do things. I'm sure God could have come up with one.

Nothing is fair... But as a reward for taking all the sins of humanity he was rewareded: He was resurrected by "GOD" himself, his was given the power to judge every human, he will resurrect everyone who is worthy of the afterlife, he sits next to "GOD" in heaven, he will be the one to cast the devil out of his throne on Earth, he is glorfied and remembered forever, and last he is the one who gets to judge you at the so called "Pearly Gates".

I think this was well worth his human life...

Oh, perhaps it was worth it, but Jesus does not literally need to take all sins in order to save humanity.