For all Christians -From a Christian.

[danielOATH]

I like this question..
But before I write this, I am christian and have answered this myself.

It is said that God is omnipotent and omniscient. So, if God knows all and sees all, then he knew that when he created us, we would sin. Therefore he has created us into sin, so he could send Jesus to save us from what God condemned us too initially. This leads to the supported idea that God is a self-propagandist, creating us purely so he could be worshipped. A selfish God. Not one to deserve worship.
Support or dispute and back your thoughts up. I'd prefer if Christians were the ones that gave their thoughts on this.

My view on this, as demonstrated many times throughout The Bible, is that God sees what he wants to see. This is in no way limiting his omnipotence. Throughout The Bible, God portrays human characteristics, he changes his mind, etc.
I think he, like all of us, likes mystery. I believe he has an ultimate plan that will come to be truth, but how he achieves that ultimate plan, he is still sussing out. In no way does this restrict his powers. I believe he can potentially get bored. It's said that we are created in his image, and we show characteristics and emotions. Why shouldn't he? It says he is angered by many in The Bible, and saddened etc. Why can't he get bored? I believe he can, and 'winging it' but achieving his promised plan in the end is his way of avoiding boredom.
But we digress.
I believe he sees what he wants to see to leave some mystery in it. I believe that the future of the first people was left a mystery to him by choice, for I refuse to believe and worship a God that created a race so he could be worshipped and propagates for his own glory.

 

[J2x4]

Well the way I see it is that yes God knows all and sees all, but you can also take into account our free choice as true, so therefore we sinned as our choice and then he sent a savior, while yes, he knew this would happen. I know it is confusing because we have free choice yet he knows what we will do - it is hard to understand but we have let it be what it is. I say this coming from a upbringing of private christian schools, currently I don't think about the subject of religion too much, I am confused lol.

 

[danielOATH]

No, I understand exactly what you're saying.. But if you were to give someone a gun, knowing they'd kill themselves, would you do it?

He has knowingly created us purely for the purpose of worship.

 

[olweasel]

Well the way I see it is that yes God knows all and sees all, but you can also take into account our free choice as true, so therefore we sinned as our choice and then he sent a savior, while yes, he knew this would happen. I know it is confusing because we have free choice yet he knows what we will do - it is hard to understand but we have let it be what it is. I say this coming from a upbringing of private christian schools, currently I don't think about the subject of religion too much, I am confused lol.

If free will exists, then the proposed god isn't truly omnipotent.

If it doesn't, then god really is omnipotent. What this would implicate is that not only did god destine me to disbelieve - but he will punish me for it!

 

[Finally_Found_Freedom]

Well, who's to say you understand omniscience and omnipotence in a divine sense correctly? How can we begin to comprehend, if god exists, what true knowledge and power really are?

 

[olweasel]

So there's no point in speculating, since god is above reason?

 

[Schnell]

Man created God in his image.

 

[tiger9110]

I am Christian myself and go to church regularly, however I am certainly not the one to care if someone goes and tells me he doesn't exist or hes a lie etc, etc.

God is an interesting hobby for me, so what I have heard from various sources is that he created us for his own glory, he is God so what else would you have done if he did not decide to create man? You would be here to begin with.

For example, your Father, usually being the master of the household obviously did not go and have sex to create a child for his own glory, however you show your father respect as he technically brought you into this world. Just because you must show respect to him does not mean he is your enemy and you must back stab him the first opportunity you get, no, you love him and treat him with respect for the simple action of sleeping with a woman. Something pleasurable and not painful in the slightest (I am only using a Father as the example to keep it simple)

God created us with no suffering and pain on his own part, he just did.

However because he wanted to save us from our mis-deeds, he sacrificed something dear to him to keep us safe. Even though your father is your superior, he cannot go and make you not go do worldly, unmoral things.

So like God as the Father, he can only tell you that doing such things will hurt him because he only wants what is best for you. Lets say you go and do that bad thing and you end up getting screwed over. Will you go to God, or your own father, and curse him for the pain and suffering you received for those few moments of pleasure from acting on your own will and doing worldly/unmoral things?

Like a father, he only told you that doing these things would bring no good, he warned you and you ignored him. So you yourself are the only one to blame.

For Christians think of it with God in perspective and for Atheists just think about it in terms of what a good father would do.

*Again, don't tell me this is a load of bull, I honestly do not even care in the slightest if you tell me this, I am just explaining what I think will make sense to both sides.

 

[olweasel]

For example, your Father, usually being the master of the household obviously did not go and have sex to create a child for his own glory, however you show your father respect as he technically brought you into this world. Just because you must show respect to him does not mean he is your enemy and you must back stab him the first opportunity you get, no, you love him and treat him with respect for the simple action of sleeping with a woman. Something pleasurable and not painful in the slightest (I am only using a Father as the example to keep it simple)

Why should I be simply grateful for coming into being, when I had no choice in it?

I didn't choose to be born to him, it just happened.

This kind of arbitrary respect is just as foolish as nationalism.


I believe that respect is earned to an absolute extent.

You should respect your father when he practices excellent parenting.

You should respect your father when he himself consistently applies the virtues (that are valid) he preached.

 

[tiger9110]

Why should I be simply grateful for coming into being, when I had no choice in it?

I didn't choose to be born to him, it just happened.

This kind of arbitrary respect is just as foolish as nationalism.

You regret being born and given life? If you like living, continue to live, then you are grateful for life.

I believe that respect is earned to an absolute extent.

This is a subjective opinion

You should respect your father when he himself consistently applies the virtues (that are valid) he preached.

Exactly, last bit didn't make sense however this is what I was saying.

 

[Finally_Found_Freedom]

So there's no point in speculating, since god is above reason?

What type of speculation?

 

[olweasel]

Speculation about the nature of god, and what it would mean for us.

You regret being born and given life? If you like living, continue to live, then you are grateful for life.

Regret is remorse over your actions. It's futile to regret something that you had no say in.

You aren't indebted to anyone for simply being alive.

Even so, wouldn't the act of living alone be an insufficient way to express gratitude? Doesn't your god demand worship?


Again, the life you're born into is the result of myriad chance.

I have the will to live, because my life is tolerable, and I can live for myself.

There are people who honestly don't enjoy living. It just happened that I was born into better circumstances than those of other people.

If anything, I'm fortunate, rather than grateful, as it's purely a matter of chance.

Exactly, last bit didn't make sense however this is what I was saying.

Well, does god truly abide by prescribed morals?

Many people think of him as being a moral hypocrite.

 

[Finally_Found_Freedom]

If God is God then it must be the whole; that is, that God must exist as a manifestation of every plane of the universe. Naturally, then, it is impossible to rationalize a concept in which you are only understanding one side. The truth is, you must decide whether or not you believe in such a being. If you do, all you can do is begin to understand qualitatively how this would relate to our lives.

 

[danielOATH]

If free will exists, then the proposed god isn't truly omnipotent.

If it doesn't, then god really is omnipotent. What this would implicate is that not only did god destine me to disbelieve - but he will punish me for it!

The fuck?

Free will does exist, but he knows whats going to happen. That's not hard to understand.. It's as easy to understand as the idea of a fortune teller, or a premonition. How does him knowing all (omniscience) limit his omnipotence?

 

[olweasel]

The fuck?

Free will does exist, but he knows whats going to happen. That's not hard to understand..

That isn't a satisfying answer, though.

Predestination would still uproot free will.

When god created us, he knew everything that was going to happen.

Everything we do, in the context of our free will, should work towards what he knew was going to happen.

So free will would be an illusion.

It's as easy to understand as the idea of a fortune teller, or a premonition.

A fortune teller isn't omniscient, so they can't necessarily know what is always going to happen.

How does him knowing all (omniscience) limit his omnipotence?

You misunderstood.

I was trying to say that if we truly have free will, then that would limit his omnipotence.

If God is God then it must be the whole; that is, that God must exist as a manifestation of every plane of the universe. Naturally, then, it is impossible to rationalize a concept in which you are only understanding one side

That implies a completely naturalistic, or deistic concept of god. But I wouldn't simply assume such without reason to.

This thread is about the Christian god, who is an all-powerful, personal, and judgmental god.

The truth is, you must decide whether or not you believe in such a being. If you do, all you can do is begin to understand qualitatively how this would relate to our lives.

Whether I believe doesn't change the reality of whether god really exists or not.

 

[tiger9110]

Regret is remorse over your actions. It's futile to regret something that you had no say in.

Regret is a sense of loss, disappointment, dissatisfaction, etc. Not just for your own actions. Thus making my point valid.

Ex. You regret the decision your friend made in choosing life styles.

You aren't indebted to anyone for simply being alive.

Even so, wouldn't the act of living alone be an insufficient way to express gratitude? Doesn't your god demand worship?

If you feel that way, what about the nourishment they give you, shelter, education. The list only goes on.

So you say that you live to spite your creator? God does not demand worship, there is always a choice.

I have the will to live, because my life is tolerable, and I can live for myself.

No one forced you to believe in Christianity, if you live because you think it is by pure chance who am I to challenge such logic, I have never told anyone how to live their life. I am just explaining knowledge gathered by me by pure interest.

Well, does god truly abide by prescribed morals?

Many people think of him as being a moral hypocrite.

Why would people think of God as a moral hypocrite, this really does not make sense as he has never sinned. So such a statement would be foolish to use.

 

[olweasel]

If you feel that way, what about the nourishment they give you, shelter, education. The list only goes on.

Yes, that does justify respect, but not them simply creating you as you initially suggested.

So you say that you live to spite your creator?

No.

To be honest, I don't know why I live.

But religion didn't fill that void.

God does not demand worship, there is always a choice.

But what the Christian god says is believe in him - or suffer eternal damnation.

I don't see much of a choice in that.

No one forced you to believe in Christianity

True, Christians today wouldn't exercise compulsion.

I am just explaining knowledge gathered by me by pure interest.

Have you looked into other possible gods and teleological explanations?

Do you think Christianity is any more valid?

If you were born elsewhere, do you think you would have ever come to those beliefs?

 

[Jimmy]

If god's reason for allowing evil is that he got bored then he is not omnibenevolent. If he ignored the fact that creating humans would be creating suffering and injustice then he is not a good god.

The reason that in the earlier parts of the bible (the Old Testement specifically) god is endowed with so many human characteristics is that their idea of god differs from the later Judaic and Christian interpretations of god. This earlier god was not all knowing, nor all good. He was more akin to polytheistic deities such as Zeus.

 

[BB Services]

I am Christian myself and go to church regularly, however I am certainly not the one to care if someone goes and tells me he doesn't exist or hes a lie etc, etc.

God is an interesting hobby for me, so what I have heard from various sources is that he created us for his own glory, he is God so what else would you have done if he did not decide to create man? You would be here to begin with.

For example, your Father, usually being the master of the household obviously did not go and have sex to create a child for his own glory, however you show your father respect as he technically brought you into this world. Just because you must show respect to him does not mean he is your enemy and you must back stab him the first opportunity you get, no, you love him and treat him with respect for the simple action of sleeping with a woman. Something pleasurable and not painful in the slightest (I am only using a Father as the example to keep it simple)

God created us with no suffering and pain on his own part, he just did.

However because he wanted to save us from our mis-deeds, he sacrificed something dear to him to keep us safe. Even though your father is your superior, he cannot go and make you not go do worldly, unmoral things.

So like God as the Father, he can only tell you that doing such things will hurt him because he only wants what is best for you. Lets say you go and do that bad thing and you end up getting screwed over. Will you go to God, or your own father, and curse him for the pain and suffering you received for those few moments of pleasure from acting on your own will and doing worldly/unmoral things?

Like a father, he only told you that doing these things would bring no good, he warned you and you ignored him. So you yourself are the only one to blame.

For Christians think of it with God in perspective and for Atheists just think about it in terms of what a good father would do.

*Again, don't tell me this is a load of bull, I honestly do not even care in the slightest if you tell me this, I am just explaining what I think will make sense to both sides.

You are the most correct so far. Respect is earnt for things without the actual goal to "earn" respect. My dad didn't have sex just so I could come into the world and give him respect, but I do it because I'm here. Otherwise I'd be selfless.

 

[flickflackflick]

i believe christianity is too broad and spread to have true roots

many gods from other religion have been: born of virgins, on december 25th

also, without people god is nothing, god doesnt create people, people create god.

one of my favorite quotes.