Pin Scammers - The Solution

[Recnuob]

@Mentis, Yes i realise everything you just said is true... I even mentioned myself, that this was already in play and its hard to increase the number of official MMs... I understand that it is hard to do, but if it would be done, then it would be a solution

Hmm, Mentis you have me a good idea for a Fourth Suggestion or an expansion of solution 1, and here it is:

This is not my favourite solution, and I don't particularly care for it, but, instead of looking for those few official MMs who go through all the trouble to mm 5 12m+ and all that, maybe there could be another stage to the official MM process, The Trusted MM, an official rank, given to those who have 20/25 trades, they are technically "Official Pin MMs" who's job it is to MM small amount acc trades and pins, these would be just like regular applicants, but people would trust them more because they have a title and stuff Essentially, it is another test for the official mm process while at the same time giving trusted mms some advantage in the small amount and pin area

@Nathan, I assume that Staff are given a colour as a reward for doing there job for free, but also so they can be identified easily, if someone needed assistance. But thats not to be really discussed on this thread

@ForHoliday, Considering pins should be around 1.6m - 2m or even 3m, and plenty of people but off trusted people for 1.4m+, there is no reason why people shouldn't be willing to pay an extra 300k for safety purposes.

Also, The Fagex idea has been brought up in plenty of other threads, and the answer is no. If you want to argue it, go post in those threads, it's not to be discussed in mine.

@everyone else, Thanks for the time you took to read and post your views.
Its good to hear that you liked it, or what you think you would do, after all, its just a suggestion, constructive criticism is always welcome

 

[Spereff]

Wow. I see. True...so people can be encouraged to buy PINs off those "official" PIN sellers...seems sort of farfetched, but it really is a good idea. Nice job.

 

[Recnuob]

Hehe, thanks.
I'd like to see a little bit of action hpapening though

 

[Hey123]

recnuob is the perfect person to lead this pin revolution due to the fact that im new to this i still bought a pin from him and he didnt scam and even helped me though the process all i got to say is recnuob for President !!!

 

[mcwilki]

omfg really good point best suggestion ive seen on sythe today seriously, many ppl get scammed threw buying pins i sell pins for 1.5mil which is a good price and they get a pin but loads of people say there too high i just tell them pay my price or u can go get scammed off sum1 else its fair enough really hope they open a verified shop

 

[Institutionalized]

Well Recnuob, I think thats a Very Good idea to stop scammers But there no way of stoping scammers from scamming pins even legit peeps on sythe do still scam. so ye

One of the best answer I've seen in this thread so far.

Sorry Rec, but I didn't want to say this.
There is nothing this thread has to really offer.

No harsh feelings?

 

[Recnuob]

^^ I accept your input, but I dont see why you say it?
Atleast give me some reasoning as to why you don't think it has anything to really offer.

And as I said before in this thread, I admit that there is no way to completely stop scammers, there are always going to be a few trusted people who scam, and a few noobs who get 1 or 2 scams off before they are banned. But the main aim of this thread is to:
1. Lower the chance that the noob scammers get to scam. (Closer attention and more trusted sellers)
2. Make ways that people can't scam repeditively. (TWC or BAN)
3. Give noobs to the site a safe place to buy pins, after all, a large amount of new members come here for pins. (Trusted Sellers + MM)

 

[gamer716]

i agree...sounds cool and can slower the amount of scammers for pins

 

[Sin666]

Sorry Rec.

1. More MM's won't necessarily help. Even though pins only take a few minutes, most MM's don't do them because the fee is so small. If you have a big gold trade, you can find an MM in moments. If you have a pin trade...give it a day. It's not just greed - MiddleManning can get annoying, and tiresome after a while; many of the trades are scams, the traders don't know what they're doing (and freak when you tell them you need their password), etc. I'm sure you know the deal. The fees are the only thing keeping some of our MM's active, and on pins, they're a relatively weak motivation.

2. TWC
Ranks take a long time to implement, since only the admins can give them. I think that's part of the reason it's so underused - TWC's usually get added in a matter of weeks. Admins have other responsibilities around the site, and they would have to agree to the added chore.

3.
If you know of a trusted pin shop, tell me. Most of those shops are selling illegal or scammed pins (the SMS ones are almost all stolen) - and Sythe cannot officially support that. The only reason those "trusted sellers" aren't banned is that it's hard to prove where they're getting their product. Anyway, most of them end up scamming regardless. (clearly, to have the business in the first place, they don't mind)

When I used to ban people, large pin shop owners were often the easiest targets, and most likely to self-vouch, ban evade, scam, etc. Unfortunately, it can't always be proven.

 

[Bosnian Legend]

I like the verified pin shop thing. It would help a lot because someone gave me a wrong pin before and I lost all my money to the scammer.

 

[Mentis]

Sorry Rec.

1. More MM's won't necessarily help. Even though pins only take a few minutes, most MM's don't do them because the fee is so small. If you have a big gold trade, you can find an MM in moments. If you have a pin trade...give it a day. It's not just greed - MiddleManning can get annoying, and tiresome after a while; many of the trades are scams, the traders don't know what they're doing (and freak when you tell them you need their password), etc. I'm sure you know the deal. The fees are the only thing keeping some of our MM's active, and on pins, they're a relatively weak motivation.

2. TWC
Ranks take a long time to implement, since only the admins can give them. I think that's part of the reason it's so underused - TWC's usually get added in a matter of weeks. Admins have other responsibilities around the site, and they would have to agree to the added chore.

3.
If you know of a trusted pin shop, tell me. Most of those shops are selling illegal or scammed pins (the SMS ones are almost all stolen) - and Sythe cannot officially support that. The only reason those "trusted sellers" aren't banned is that it's hard to prove where they're getting their product. Anyway, most of them end up scamming regardless. (clearly, to have the business in the first place, they don't mind)

When I used to ban people, large pin shop owners were often the easiest targets, and most likely to self-vouch, ban evade, scam, etc. Unfortunately, it can't always be proven.

1. I agree there, as I stated before MORE official MM's won't help.
Unofficials are the ones doing pin trades most of the time. But that does add in on the earlier suggestion of "trusted" MM ranks.

2. Agreed as well, but if you had a special team dedicated to tracking down suspicious people with nothing other than the ability to hand out TWC's it just might work.

3. Now your just being naive.
Of course 99% of all pins are stolen, but how many people actually get banned from using one? And what would Sythe's pin market look like without stolen pins? I know, quite empty.
It's a necessary evil, and you know it.

Now as a large pin shop owner you did offend me with that comment.
I obtain my pins from re-selling them from other smaller sellers. Basically offering security to both the buyer AND the seller for trading with a trustworthy person. Yes, you can compare me to a grossly overpaid pin MM.
So now what, ban all MM's that MMed stolen pins?

Does that make me a bad person, or a target for your little banning practices?
Is it justified to eliminate those few legit people that keep the market in once piece, fucking loopholes for breaking rules, just because of your personal views on justice?

Answer me that if you can, and I just might share your views.

 

[Sin666]

Mentis, I didn't mean to offend anyone. Though, you clearly do.

1. Rec identified the problem as the "Officials Only" mantra. We cannot require people to use Trusted MM's for pin trades, and therefore the problem would not be solved by creating a separate rank. Sellers could still claim they did not feel secure without a "true" official.

3. I've been banned 4 times, in maybe 16 pins. Just because it's under-reported doesn't mean it's not common. As for the market being "empty" without stolen pins, I doubt it; if there were a shortage, the price would rise, and sellers would respond by joining the market. Econ101.

That's not the issue though. You're right, it is a necessary evil, because there ARE legitimate sellers, and we can't assume everyone's stealing pins. I completely acknowledge that; hence why I said most shops do. You yourself admit the truth to most pins being stolen. So, I can't really see why you're attacking me.

Anyway, I was referring largely to the shops that obtain their own pins. Pin sellers after Ducharme's tradition are significantly less common, especially when people realize they can get them "free".

Even so, accepting the known problem of stolen pins and devising a system supporting it are two different things.

Does that make me a bad person, or a target for your little banning practices?

And that is where you offend. In addition to not targetting you...at all - my "little banning practices" go towards preventing the very issue at hand. This site is full of greed and corruption, and yeah, I do try to clean up at least some of that bullshit. I've banned at least 2 officials, and several would-be - and I'm damn proud of it. But thanks for trying to belittle my efforts.

 

[Recnuob]

Ok, lets try and keep the flaming out of the thread, and try keeping it to constructive critisism.

Thanks sin for atleast the bravery to critisize my ideas.

1. You do know that the majority of people, nay all of the people who will not use a trusted MM, just because he doesn't have the title of Official MM, are scammers. Once you realise that, you realise that a Trusted MM rank, one for pin guys or something of the like would be suitable for the job. Yes, I realise even if there was more officials, they wouldn't necessarily do pin jobs.

2. TWC is a decent idea, the problem is in the admins being able to do it, if you could make a crack team of admins, or just make it possible for mods to do it (not sure if thats actually possible) then it would work.

3. You are right, the more demand, the price will go up more people sell legit pins, la di da everyones happy.

No, it doesn't quite work like that.

As I've said before, I have watched and studied the pin market for a decent time while I was here, doing what Mentis does, merchanting pin. I'm sure that the majority of my pins come from legit means.

More importantly though, THE DEMAND IS NOT WHAT KEEPS PRICES DOWN!
The problem with prices being down is explained in my thread but I will say it agian...
There is a LARGE DEMAND on pins, which never will be satisfied properly.
Pins should be priced at 2m + and if they were it would attract more sellers.
There is a large enough demand for pins to reach this height, EVEN WITH "UNLEGIT PINS". these pins aren't the problem. It's scammers that "sell" pins really cheap and scam, so people aren't inclined to go much above the lowest price, and they aren't willing to risk alot of money to get scammed.
With the use of trusted pin shops, and getting rid of alot of the scammers, the price will rise, and hopefully bring more legit pins into the market.

 

[Institutionalized]

2. TWC is a decent idea, the problem is in the admins being able to do it, if you could make a crack team of admins, or just make it possible for mods to do it (not sure if thats actually possible) then it would work.

No, it wouldn't work.

A TWC is worthless because it isn't two big sized men who are right behind you, who are watching your every move, and will be the shit out of you if you scam.

No, any member can still scam with a TWC, it'd just be slightly harder.

 

[Recnuob]

See, I believe it would work, the main reason people are able to scam is because isgnorant noobs don't know the difference between trusted and not, if by using TWC, we can show them if someones not trusted, then it would work, wouldnt it?

 

[Institutionalized]

See, I believe it would work, the main reason people are able to scam is because isgnorant noobs don't know the difference between trusted and not, if by using TWC, we can show them if someones not trusted, then it would work, wouldnt it?

Unfortunately, that won't happen.

You should know how foolish people are. =/

 

[Mentis]

Mentis, I didn't mean to offend anyone. Though, you clearly do.

1. Rec identified the problem as the "Officials Only" mantra. We cannot require people to use Trusted MM's for pin trades, and therefore the problem would not be solved by creating a separate rank. Sellers could still claim they did not feel secure without a "true" official.

3. I've been banned 4 times, in maybe 16 pins. Just because it's under-reported doesn't mean it's not common. As for the market being "empty" without stolen pins, I doubt it; if there were a shortage, the price would rise, and sellers would respond by joining the market. Econ101.

That's not the issue though. You're right, it is a necessary evil, because there ARE legitimate sellers, and we can't assume everyone's stealing pins. I completely acknowledge that; hence why I said most shops do. You yourself admit the truth to most pins being stolen. So, I can't really see why you're attacking me.

Anyway, I was referring largely to the shops that obtain their own pins. Pin sellers after Ducharme's tradition are significantly less common, especially when people realize they can get them "free".

Even so, accepting the known problem of stolen pins and devising a system supporting it are two different things.


And that is where you offend. In addition to not targetting you...at all - my "little banning practices" go towards preventing the very issue at hand. This site is full of greed and corruption, and yeah, I do try to clean up at least some of that bullshit. I've banned at least 2 officials, and several would-be - and I'm damn proud of it. But thanks for trying to belittle my efforts.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm attacking you, that was far from my intention. You just made it sound like general discrimination towards pin sellers as a whole due to negative personal experience. So I felt I'd make my views very clear, I'm sorry it came out a bit rude.

I remember seeing you back in the days where I hadn't even registered yet, and I did like how you owned all the people selling "stolen" pins.
You really stirred up the hive back then.

However you did ban a few people for minor offenses that didn't really hurt anyone, turning it more into a personal war for what you feel was just, rather than looking at the public interest. Which is some necessary evils to remain untouched, as to keep the already fragile balance in place.

Anyway the stolen pin problem has been solving itself recently. Not only are many chat sites banning people attempting to obtain them, it's becoming easier and easier to spot people selling stolen pins.

However, as has been stated before, the problem won't exactly disappear either. Legit pins are worth at LEAST 2m+, and it's not the stolen pins getting those prices down. It's the scammers pretending to sell their pins so cheaply that are.

Noobs are very easily influenced by seeing someone selling a pin "cheaply", obviously having in mind that legit pins are priced near that.
They don't realize how rare legit pins are, and simply assume they can genuinely obtain a pin that cheaply. They move to the scammers, and not only get scammed, but force legit sellers to lower their prices who as a result lose interest in actually selling pins anymore. Thus collapsing the market further.

It needs to be solved, and the only way to do that is to make it easier for noobs to make a difference between legit and scamming pin sellers.

Recnuob suggested a few methods, and to be honest they are better than nothing. Because we all agree change needs to be made. BADLY.

 

[Sin666]

However you did ban a few people for minor offenses that didn't really hurt anyone, turning it more into a personal war for what you feel was just, rather than looking at the public interest. Which is some necessary evils to remain untouched, as to keep the already fragile balance in place.

I do not believe I have ever banned anyone merely for selling stolen pins. (Though, I did sometimes refuse to MM them.) If anyone did get banned, it would only have been one or two people, when the problem first emerged; I knew many people who did it later, including various trusted members. I really don't ban people unless I think they're scammers. My proofs show only what is necessary to ban someone - be it self-vouches, banned accounts, etc. But, what I show in proofs is not necessarily my reasoning behind it.

As for the prices, you and Rec suppose that the main effect would be on buyers. It shouldn't matter if fake sellers ask 800k and legit sellers ask 2m. Even if they expect a cheap price at first, buyers will get desperate and pay more if they can't find a seller. If you've had to suffer f2p long enough, you'd pay anything.

The problem is that people do sell at those cheap prices. Maybe that's the fault of new sellers, who confuse the real price with those asked by the scamming majority. But, these new sellers usually only sell a few pins a month, and are few in number. There still has to be another component.

The true problem, then, is still stolen pins as I see it. They're the ones filling in the supply at cheap prices, because they can afford to sell for a lot less - essentially, anything is profit, and they are not limited by "3 per phone line". Hence why SMS still sell cheaper than PBP's, even though they technically cost more to buy. (In fact, unless the market's changed, most scammers claim to sell PBP's; by your logic, they should therefore be cheaper). Instead, I usually end up paying 1.4-1.5, and that would probably be higher if I had to compete with others to get it.

Anyway, back to the real issue. I'm not against the effort to reduce pin scamming, just skeptical that it's feasible to. New members will always be reckless and naive, no matter how many stickies are made in big bold letters saying "USE AN MM" "GET A PM" "DON'T 50/50" etc, and sellers will always take advantage of that. The TWC or some form of individual warning would be nice, but most scammers are leechers who can easily create new accounts.

 

[Recnuob]

To be blatently honest, i've said this many times before maybe you should try to read
there is a very large demand on pins.. Pin sellers can charge what they want... but people are too scared to pay a large amount or they do not have the funds, as they are often scammed out of there first mill or two.

By using these ways, its possible to get rid or dampen the chances of scammers being able to scam. The main use of the latter two however, is not only to make it harder for them to scam, but to make it easier for the new people to see who is untrusted and who is trusted...

 

[Jansen]

Requires more than 5 minutes of work, so it won't happen. The second solution isn't even possible in vBulletin without making a custom forum modification (HOURS of work).