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Do you support taxation?

But the question is: do you care? Do you care that taxation is theft. Incidently do you support taxation? And, can you prove to me that using violence to solve complex social problems (i.e government) works in the first place?

I do not see taxation as theft, I see at as something we pay to ensure our safety and well-being are protected. I do not believe that we would be able to create a happy and fully functioning society without taxation simply because too many people would take advantage. Crime rates would increase as there would be no police. Roads would become unusual as it is taxes that pay for the upkeep of them.

I am undecided whether I support taxation or not. I just believe paying taxes is a lot more simpler to do now than abolishing them and having to rebuild a new system. I also believe however that a lot of tax is wasted. The cost for just recovering taxes is ridiculous and the money the government wastes is simply not accountable for.

can you prove to me that using violence to solve complex social problems (i.e government) works in the first place?

I don't understanding what your saying here so please put it in layman's terms for me. :D
 
I'll post this pre-emptively, since I'm going for a walk.

Whatever you write, most likely not an argument. Burden of proof is not on me to prove that peace works. You support the initiation of force, you prove to me that the initiation of force (evil) will produce good. It never has in the past.

Also, can you send a cheque for my taxes, since you support them? (And I'm not kidding.) You can have the rest of your bs back. Thanks Danzzz.

I'm not here to argue with you. I'm here to discuss.

EDIT: I did not say I support taxation.
 
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Oh dang, he replied in time.

I do not see taxation as theft, I see at as something we pay to ensure our safety and well-being are protected.

Yeah, but regardless of your beliefs, it is theft.

I will give you my definitions of the two and you can show me how they are metaphysically different things:

Theft:
theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.
Taxation:
taxation is the legal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.
I am undecided whether I support taxation or not. I just believe paying taxes is a lot more simpler to do now than abolishing them and having to rebuild a new system.
So today you've used the following fallacies:
"Everybody contributes" "everybody pays" etc:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-common-practice.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

And:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

What does the complexity of "building a new system" (as if we'd be doing that anyway, more like just arresting a bunch of criminals in capital cities) have to do with anything? Taxation is theft. Theft is immoral. Therefore taxation is immoral.

How much simpler can I make it?

Perhaps one level lower:

If you support coercive monopoly theft funded public projects, then why don't you pay for them yourself?

What does your idiocy have to do with me? Why do I get bills for your crap?

You should pay my taxes because you support the institution of taxation, whereas I do not. I never asked anyone to build all this crumbling public infrastructure, or nationalize the universities and hospitals. I have no contract with anyone in the government, no social contract, nothing. And yet they send these pieces of paper to me DEMANDING MY MONEY.

Even if taxation were legitimate, why should I foot the bill? You're the one who supports it: you pay for it.

So have you got $5000? That's what I allegedly owe them at the moment.
 
If Tax was abolished, do you think you should be able to live freely in your country, that the government could make money from anything else to support the services that you need, Policing, Healthcare, Etc.

Yes its theft, you disagree with having to pay someone else your hard earned money, But its a neccessity, for a society, and a nation to continue, and a state to be successful, Taxation is needed. If you don't support it, im sure you could just move to Saudi Arabia or Monaco, places completely controlled by private-sector businesses, and become a citizen.
 
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If Tax was abolished, do you think you should be able to live freely in your country, that the government could make money from anything else to support the services that you need, Policing, Healthcare, Etc.

Well firstly there is no such thing as a country. It is a fiction. There is only land and people.

Secondly, most of the things you use in your day to day life are made by private industry: electricity, food, petrol, your car, books, your computer, the internet, shopping malls, television stations, television shows, virtually every appliance in your house, probably every appliance at your work, your work itself, etc, etc. So, given that you already live in a largely private property world, why would you expect that a reduction in property crime ("taxation") would lead to less property?

And given that the government can't do anything right, including providing these services at reasonable cost and quality, why is it that you presume no one else can provide them? And why is this even a question to you?

Provision of services on a purely voluntary basis is the only moral option, and that is all you need consider.

Yes its theft, you disagree with having to pay someone else your hard earned money, But its a neccessity, for a society, and a nation to continue, and a state to be successful, Taxation is needed.
Where's the proof?

Prove to me that taxation is needed for anything. Prove to me that you have to steal from and enslave people to make "society" (which, ironically, is just a description of free exchange between humans) work.

If you don't support it, im sure you could just move to Saudi Arabia or Monaco, places completely controlled by private-sector businesses, and become a citizen.
Why? Why should I move? What does it have to do with me? I have no contract with anyone in "the government". By this logic if a band of thieves moves into your town and you don't like it, then you should live somewhere else; Because apparently they are in the right by virtue of calling your land part of "a country", whatever that is.

By the logic of "countries", I can to setup a "country" around your house and tell you to leave if you don't like my "taxation" from my "government". And when you protest I will tell you "ah, but all your neighbours voted for me! because I'm paying them your money that I take from you as taxes." Perfectly legitimate right?
 
Why do they have to pay for our tax? They'll obviously tell us to stop earning wages/money if we don't want to pay tax.
I like this. No earning = no taxes. Problem solved! Hey or else you can just move to some random country and live in the woods with no government and no one to take your money. Sound good? How do you expect a country to run and protect you if they don't take taxes?

Great, so when can I send you my taxes? You will pay them right? To be consistent with your beliefs...
Honestly, these comments from you are obnoxious because just because someone supports taxes doesn't mean they want to pay for yours. I support paying for my items at the store, and buying my own food. However I wouldn't pay for your items or your food. Pull your own weight.

-theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.
-taxation is the legal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent.

I love how you just pulled these out of your own ass for it to work for you. I buy something from the store. Do I want to pay for it? No, I don't. Theft! How dare they take my money. Or should I call it taxation?
 
Well firstly there is no such thing as a country. It is a fiction. There is only land and people.

Secondly, most of the things you use in your day to day life are made by private industry: electricity, food, petrol, your car, books, your computer, the internet, shopping malls, television stations, television shows, virtually every appliance in your house, probably every appliance at your work, your work itself, etc, etc. So, given that you already live in a largely private property world, why would you expect that a reduction in property crime ("taxation") would lead to less property?

Well then see it this way, you live in their land, Private property of Australia's Government, While you're in their property, they have you binded to their laws. You have to pay them for using their services, If you don't, you break their laws. you'll be put in their Prison (oddly the one you didn't pay for.)

And given that the government can't do anything right, including providing these services at reasonable cost and quality, why is it that you presume no one else can provide them? And why is this even a question to you?

Provision of services on a purely voluntary basis is the only moral option, and that is all you need consider.
I struggle to see any fitting alternative without damaging the poor or vulnerable, especially healthcare.

So you'd rather someone volunteer for such a dangerous and skilled job? privatised businesses like this would be prone to un-skilled workers, or (more) corrupt workers.


Where's the proof?

Prove to me that taxation is needed for anything. Prove to me that you have to steal from and enslave people to make "society" (which, ironically, is just a description of free exchange between humans) work.
Big emphasis on needed...
The Poor Need the money of the taxpayers, especially in the UK. State benefits for the handicapped, unfit for work, the vulnerable, and ill/hospitalised people need your money, that is a true moral value for why tax should be paid, The poor suffer, even when its not their fault. surely its moral to give to the needy?

Also,
lets say you were to go into your local park/public place, you were to suffer an injury, and its fatal, it requires surgery and special treatment, you're treated in a public hospital, and recover there, you'd be grateful for the doctor who saved your life.
That whole situation is Linked To Tax, Tax is used to upkeep parks, public places, provide the ambulance you would need, pay for the wages of the Surgeon, the surgery itself, the special treatment, the food and medication you receive in the hospital, and time of respite you spend there. Still saying you wouldn't be grateful for paying taxes?

Why? Why should I move? What does it have to do with me? I have no contract with anyone in "the government". By this logic if a band of thieves moves into your town and you don't like it, then you should live somewhere else; Because apparently they are in the right by virtue of calling your land part of "a country", whatever that is.

By the logic of "countries", I can to setup a "country" around your house and tell you to leave if you don't like my "taxation" from my "government". And when you protest I will tell you "ah, but all your neighbours voted for me! because I'm paying them your money that I take from you as taxes." Perfectly legitimate right?
The world is ran by the richest, the greediest, and the most immoral people. what are we (the general public) able to do to fight it? Nothing, We must accept it to continue living in a partly civilised culture, we cannot fight it, theres laws restricting us able to do so.

When I pay taxes, im not going to be happy with it, why should I? It's my money..

But what Alternative Do i have, Tax evasion?
 
Well for a start there wouldn't be any standing armies, and therefore very little warfare. Government was the number one cause of unnatural death in the 20th century. You also wouldn't have any government interference in markets, which means no great depression or global financial crisis.

In addition, you would have a free market in healthcare, which would be much cheaper, you would have a free market in education, which would have moved beyond blackboards I imagine. You wouldn't spend an hour getting to work; private roads are much more efficient. You wouldn't spend the first 18 years of your life as a second class citizen.

You would have 40% more income, to spend on cheaper goods. Private protection would be more affordable and avaliable than the court system. Insurance and banking would not be government run oligopolies, and therefore also affordable.

I primarily agree -
BUT {Always a but}
What is someone was selfish is this tax free haven of a society? He / She wouldn't want to contribute a thing towards these private roads etc. They would want to spend the money they have for their personal greed.
So it would leave all the community based & generous people to help contribute to the infrastructure etc.
This would almost certainly lead to a civil neighbourhood split. Contributors wouldn't like the greedy ones for hitching a ride off their backs, All for free.
They would try and think of a way to overcome this disagreement.
"Hmm, what's the most fair way to do this?"
"I've got an idea! Everyone pays an equal amount of how much they have!"

Voila! Tax is formed.
 
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Well then see it this way, you live in their land, Private property of Australia's Government, While you're in their property, they have you binded to their laws. You have to pay them for using their services, If you don't, you break their laws. you'll be put in their Prison (oddly the one you didn't pay for.)

It's not valid property. You don't own an entire continent just by saying that you're "it's government".

I struggle to see any fitting alternative without damaging the poor or vulnerable, especially healthcare.

Well lets be clear. The government doesn't provide healthcare at the moment. The institutions supposedly setup to provide healthcare don't work. I refer you to this article:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/08/24/2992402.htm?site=brisbane
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1135582/Man-pulls-13-teeth-pliers-NHS-dentist.html

And literally hundreds of others. Not restricted to western countries either.
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

But even if they did somehow provide healthcare to the public (not that the government is competent to do much of anything except steal, kill and lie) why would that justify theft? If theft is immoral then it is absolutely immoral without exception.

Can you think of no better way to give needy people healthcare than robbing them of 40% of their income?

Big emphasis on needed...
The Poor Need the money of the taxpayers, especially in the UK. State benefits for the handicapped, unfit for work, the vulnerable, and ill/hospitalised people need your money, that is a true moral value for why tax should be paid, The poor suffer, even when its not their fault. surely its moral to give to the needy?

The poor are a class created by the welfare state. Study economics.

But even if there were natural dependents in the world, what has it to do with me? I'm not your slave to work day in and day out to feed your stinking ruin of a family. If you want resources bloody well earn them yourself. Don't tell me what to do with my time and energy.


The world is ran by the richest, the greediest, and the most immoral people. what are we (the general public) able to do to fight it? Nothing, We must accept it to continue living in a partly civilised culture, we cannot fight it, theres laws restricting us able to do so.


When I pay taxes, im not going to be happy with it, why should I? It's my money..

But what Alternative Do i have, Tax evasion?

All I can say is: you make no distinction between people rich on their own merit and thieves. You make no distinction between theft and charity, slavery and voluntary contributions, and thus your morality is disgusting, and you deserve exactly whats coming to you.
 
It's not valid property. You don't own an entire continent just by saying that you're "it's government".
I would argue to say it is Valid property, The Political party's given legitimate power by the people and are furthermore sanctioned to form government which is to represent the country.

Well lets be clear. The government doesn't provide healthcare at the moment. The institutions supposedly setup to provide healthcare don't work. I refer you to this article:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/08/24/2992402.htm?site=brisbane
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1135582/Man-pulls-13-teeth-pliers-NHS-dentist.html

And literally hundreds of others. Not restricted to western countries either.
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

But even if they did somehow provide healthcare to the public (not that the government is competent to do much of anything except steal, kill and lie) why would that justify theft? If theft is immoral then it is absolutely immoral without exception.

Can you think of no better way to give needy people healthcare than robbing them of 40% of their income?
The government fund these organisations with our Taxes, Yes.. they're not good, in some ways these organisations are disastrous, but If thats what the taxpayers money gets now, what do you expect without any money?

So it'd lead to paid and private healthcare..
complete private healthcare and for everyone to pay for their own healthcare..again, the poor/needy suffer the most.



The poor are a class created by the welfare state. Study economics.

But even if there were natural dependents in the world, what has it to do with me? I'm not your slave to work day in and day out to feed your stinking ruin of a family. If you want resources bloody well earn them yourself. Don't tell me what to do with my time and energy.

Not insulting your opinion, but from a governments POV, its inexcusable. The rich and well off are taxed to help provide for the natural dependents, because there isnt enough government spending going into creating jobs, influencing people to start opening new businesses..etc.
Im not sure for australia but the UK is suffering because our industry market is dead, We get cheap imports and thousands of businesses That are not retailers are failing.
Also, again, what about the people who are unfit to work and the disabled, HOW can they provide for themselves?

All I can say is: you make no distinction between people rich on their own merit and thieves. You make no distinction between theft and charity, slavery and voluntary contribution.
There is no distinction within government, YES they are thieves, but they're providing to the poor, kind of modernistic Robin Hood.

and thus your morality is disgusting, and you deserve exactly whats coming to you.
Okay wow, little personal but okay.
Morality and accepting the shit were in are different things, Yeah.. Maybe I cant distinct between the two, but nor can hundreds of experts within government, or other things.

Again, I don't like the situation, but we all accept it eventually right, you still pay the Taxes, Im presuming.
 
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I do not support it or anything against anyones free will for that matter. I consider myself a Utopian Socialist to some degree but also believe we should abolish government and currency all together.
 
Well we're in agreement then. Now we just have to find someone who does support taxation, and we can have them pay our taxes right?

When you find them, shoot me a pm.
 
How else should our government get money?

I'm sure they'll figure something out. But why take half of our income, then spend it to put homeless/drug addicts in homes and provide them with food? They made choices that put them there, and they should get themselves out of it.
 
I support taxation. I have more money than I "need" and I gladly pay my taxes and give contributions to help the less fortunate and make life easier. If it wasn't for government the private sector would rape us for everything we have for whatever they can. I don't agree with a lot of the ways our government uses my tax dollars. I don't agree with the greed and corruption that is intrinsic in our government or any government for that matter.

Fight government all you want but in this day and age it is a necessary evil for more reasons than I care to post.

Some people are just anti government or anti anything for whatever psychological or rebellious reasons.

In the United States, everyone can obtain food, clothing and shelter if they make an attempt to find it and hold their hand out. The uneducated, homeless, and starving people in the US are that way because they choose it. You can't say that about any other country. This is all because we pay taxes.

The United States DOES have a form of free health care. You just go to the emergency room and don't pay your bill like a massive % of our population does. I know many people that get a doctor whenever they need and have yet to pay any doctor bills.

If you don't like to live and abide by the laws of the country you live in, then leave or take up some sort of activism to alleviate whatever it is that burdens you so much.

I don't "want" to pay taxes but I support what taxes do for a country. Yes, there are countries, how they became a country is irrelevant.
 
Okay. So they simply need to revise the way they budget our money.


Why should we have to pay taxes? Give me some reasons before you say they need to learn to budget.
 
Moving the $ from the right pocket to the left pocket?

That's not budgeting

Why should we have to pay taxes? Give me some reasons before you say they need to learn to budget.

I was addressing the reasons you stated. But I'll list some new ones as well.

The federal government uses your tax dollars to support Social Security, health care,
national defense and social services such as food stamps and housing.

Services provided by taxes in South Carolina are public schools, safe highways, health
care, prisons and social services for low-income citizens. The city or county where
you live provides water and garbage service, police and fire protection and also
contributes to public schools.

^ Taken from the first thing I googled.
 
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