Do we have souls?

[Bangclaw]

I do feel your soul exists. It is just faith based as you can't really prove it.

 

[Wiggle]

If we do not have soul, then I do not see how we could be any different than the Siri app.

Also, in what religion is death something to be afraid of?

Ahah exactly ^

 

[Terrankiller]

I'm an atheist, but I believe in a soul. I can't imagine there can be any chemical process complex enough, and with enough endurance to last 70+ years, to give us consciousness all our lives.

I also read an article of a dying man who agreed to be euthanized minutes earlier than his expected time of death so that his death could be monitored by an air-tight, hypersensitive scale to see if any mass is lost upon death. Indeed, despite the fact that absolutely nothing could have exited or entered the chamber that he was in, his weight dropped a fraction of a gram, and they're venturing to call that lost weight "his soul". An ethereal substance that isn't bound by matter, much like how neutrinos don't interact with matter, yet still have mass. So that's interesting. I'll try and find it, it's definitely worth the read.

EDIT: here's a scientist's ongoing experiment with the subject:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

We are assuming the soul is lost here rather than trying to find the actual answer.

 

[ilovegold69]

If we do not have soul, then I do not see how we could be any different than the Siri app.

We aren't. Well obviously our computing power is vastly more powerful than that of an iphone and we don't answer questions based off of information pulled off of the web (for the most part) but if you look at it plainly the human brain is just a very complex computer that simulates existence so that it can reproduce it's species better.

 

[T V]

We aren't. Well obviously our computing power is vastly more powerful than that of an iphone and we don't answer questions based off of information pulled off of the web (for the most part) but if you look at it plainly the human brain is just a very complex computer that simulates existence so that it can reproduce it's species better.

If, as you (and others) are suggesting, we are not unlike Siri, then we merely "pull" information from the external world and then reproduce an internal response accordingly.
As I see it, the fundamental distinction between us and a computer is this: the computer requires human intervention in order to function; the entire history of the technology is in fact a result of human innovation. For us to be mere "complex computers" of the same sort as the kind with which you and I are communicating right now would imply that our every action is manipulated by an external mediator. Under such influence, nothing we do would ever occur without first materializing externally (however that might be) and then extending inward into our bodies to generate our conscious perception.
I cannot see how this assessment could possibly explain how our consciousness interprets the particular perceptions we experience. You and I actively control machines which only reproduce what we conceived internally; how are we to believe the external universe does the same to our bodies?

 

[ilovegold69]

If, as you (and others) are suggesting, we are not unlike Siri, then we merely "pull" information from the external world and then reproduce an internal response accordingly.
As I see it, the fundamental distinction between us and a computer is this: the computer requires human intervention in order to function; the entire history of the technology is in fact a result of human innovation. For us to be mere "complex computers" of the same sort as the kind with which you and I are communicating right now would imply that our every action is manipulated by an external mediator. Under such influence, nothing we do would ever occur without first materializing externally (however that might be) and then extending inward into our bodies to generate our conscious perception.
I cannot see how this assessment could possibly explain how our consciousness interprets the particular perceptions we experience. You and I actively control machines which only reproduce what we conceived internally; how are we to believe the external universe does the same to our bodies?

Sorry I didn't thouroughly explain myself in my first post. We are similar to a computer in that everything we think and do can be linked to physical reactions happening inside our brain like computers. The way we differ is that instead of pulling from a preset database of information, our mind was created in order to learn from experience and use that experience, combined with basic survivalist behavior, to interact with the world around us. This does not need an external force. The reason why we do not have truly ai computers as of yet is not because of physical impossibility, rather, a lack of technology. I have no doubt in my mind that some day the human race will be able to design some form of basic artificial intelligence or maybe even replicate the brain.

 

[Alan Du]

If we do not have soul, then I do not see how we could be any different than the Siri app.

Also, in what religion is death something to be afraid of?

In every religion. How do you which religion is true? Believe in the wrong religion and you may just end up in hell and suffer extreme torture for eternity. Is God really that merciful?

Our brain has much more computational power than a Siri app. It's like asking what is the difference between a super computer and a pocket calculator; except that we 'know' that we have a consciousness.

Besides, what exactly is the soul? There has been a lot of evidence, observation and testing leading to the suggestion that our memories and personality is stored in our brains. Brain damage may cause alterations in the perspective of the world, memory loss, personality changes and so-on. So what is the purpose of the soul? For consciousness? And if souls exist, how would one know that each human body keeps the same soul during its lifespan.

 

I don't believe anything till it can actually be proven. Brains are proven to be in your head and control your body. And Soul are just some story that has been popularized by religious finatics trying to explain some shit they couldn't because it was like 1400's and they didn't know shit about human anatomy or anything in that realm.

 

[T V]

Sorry I didn't thouroughly explain myself in my first post. We are similar to a computer in that everything we think and do can be linked to physical reactions happening inside our brain like computers. The way we differ is that instead of pulling from a preset database of information, our mind was created in order to learn from experience and use that experience, combined with basic survivalist behavior, to interact with the world around us. This does not need an external force.

If we do not pull from a "preset database of information", then how do the internal reactions emerge, and furthermore, from what does our learning faculty arise? Does the latter beget the former, or is it the other way around? It seems somewhat unbelievable to suggest that our learning ability causes internal reactions if it is by those same reactions that we are able to learn at all.
Also, doesn't your "database of information" bear a strong resemblance to the world that exists before we are born?

The reason why we do not have truly ai computers as of yet is not because of physical impossibility, rather, a lack of technology. I have no doubt in my mind that some day the human race will be able to design some form of basic artificial intelligence or maybe even replicate the brain.

Ok, but until that actually happens, you should be careful not base your assumptions about our present condition on the prospect of what might (or might not) occur in the future.

In every religion.

Can you give me a specific example? For as far as I know, death is a transitory phenomena in all the major religions.


Hebrews 2, 14-15:

" Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death."


or the Buddhist Lankavatara Sutra

'Those who, afriad of sufferings arising from the discrimination of birth and death, seek for Nirvana, do not know that birth and death and Nirvana are not be separated the one from the other'


both suggest that death is feared only when it is misunderstood, or when one is ill-prepared to confront it.

How do you know which religion is true? Believe in the wrong religion and you may just end up in hell and suffer extreme torture for eternity. Is God really that merciful?

The point of true religious practice is not to prove other faiths wrong, but to do good in accordance with the faith of which you are a part of. The radical misapprehensions relayed across the media tend to obscure this fact.

Our brain has much more computational power than a Siri app. It's like asking what is the difference between a super computer and a pocket calculator; except that we 'know' that we have a consciousness.

I agree.

Besides, what exactly is the soul?

Good question.

There has been a lot of evidence, observation and testing leading to the suggestion that our memories and personality is stored in our brains. Brain damage may cause alterations in the perspective of the world, memory loss, personality changes and so-on. So what is the purpose of the soul? For consciousness?

I'm not sure I can give you a good answer. What I can say is this: your computer screen projects images and you can deconstruct every component of the computer and every physical aspect of every image will be accounted for by a corresponding material component, and this is true for all computers of every kind.
Can you do the same with the human body? Can you take apart every material component and then pinpoint the precise one(s) from which, say, an artist's masterpiece emerged? I do not simply mean its physical realization, but rather that which fecundated the realization, as well as that which moves and inspires us.

also, see post #51

And if souls exist, how would one know that each human body keeps the same soul during its lifespan.

I can't think of any good reason for why you'd change souls during your lifetime (black magic notwithstanding).

 

[ilovegold69]

If we do not pull from a "preset database of information", then how do the internal reactions emerge, and furthermore, from what does our learning faculty arise? Does the latter beget the former, or is it the other way around? It seems somewhat unbelievable to suggest that our learning ability causes internal reactions if it is by those same reactions that we are able to learn at all.
Also, doesn't your "database of information" bear a strong resemblance to the world that exists before we are born?

You've lost me... Are you asking me how our brain can learn? Physically the brain has the capability to store information. This should be obvious as we can test this. The way we physically store information is through a chemical process. Our learning ability doesn't cause anything it just is. We are born with natural instinct which can be seen as a sort of internal database but it isn't valid to say we are one or the other. The brain is obviously complex but it isn't unimaginable.

 

[T V]

You've lost me... Are you asking me how our brain can learn? Physically the brain has the capability to store information. This should be obvious as we can test this. The way we physically store information is through a chemical process. Our learning ability doesn't cause anything it just is. We are born with natural instinct which can be seen as a sort of internal database but it isn't valid to say we are one or the other. The brain is obviously complex but it isn't unimaginable.

I have proposed that the distinction between humans and computers is soul.

This is what you've proposed so far:

A.
"We are similar to a computer in that everything we think and do can be linked to physical reactions happening inside our brain like computers"

B.

"The way we differ is that instead of pulling from a preset database of information, our mind was created in order to learn from experience and use that experience"


In effect, yes I am asking how you to explain how it is that our brain can learn in accordance with those two proposals.
In your previous post you first say our learning ability, the very foundation of our historical existence, "just is" and doesn't cause anything. Furthermore, you say that the organ which is presumably the seat of that ability is complex but not "unimaginable", and that is true.

But I have to disagree with you on the first point: learning, our processing and comprehension of information, engenders physical activity within the brain; you cannot possibly deny this. So my question is: can the brain be both an object of conscious perception, insofar as it has a material existence, and yet also be the origin of that perception, as you say is the case in learning?
If you insist that the answer to my question is yes, then you are implicitly suggesting that the brain creates itself. You explicitly stated, "our mind [I presume you mean our brain] was created in order to learn", but you do not make any mention of what our learning-brain was created from. The brain is certainly composed of matter, but I contend that external perceptions do not originate from it, rather that they are to be found entirely within themselves; our nervous system merely directs sensory stimuli to the corresponding parts of the body. To put it rather naively, there are a multiplicity of possible states that a given object can occupy, but only a single one is perceived; the role of soul is to be found in the question of why that particular state, and not any other, is perceived at a specific temporal instance.


I will try to respond to your posts as best as I can, but it may be time for me to withdraw from our discussion as we are quickly approaching the current limit of my ability to make a cogent argument.

 

i do not believe we have souls. i as well think our brain is what makes us, and we are what make our brains (eg. personality, character, morals, etc)

 

I don't think we have souls. I've heard many arguments about "orbs in digital camera photos" and stories of loved ones that the family believes. I'm am a very literal person, and listen to and side by the side of science. Although they have yet to disprove such, to be able to prove it would be way out there, and seemingly ludicrous for me.

That being said, I wouldn't not believe it if it was proved

 

[ChaotiiiKid]

I got thinking about those who believe we have souls which live on after death and such. I believe the brain, and not the soul, is what makes us. I sort of paraphrased the works of Sam Harris more than anything.

If a part of the brain of a person is removed - such as memory or recognising faces, for example, then we lose the skill associated with said part. And when a person dies, they lose all brain functionality. If conciousness comes from the brain then either;

• The soul is independent of the brain
• The soul is dependent of the brain
• The soul does not exist

So, if the brain can be damaged and the soul not (commonly held belief), and the brain controls conciousness then it follows that said soul serves no function.

Which means this idea of a soul was just created to cope with grief and death - if conciousness ends, death is absolute. Most people do not want to believe so. The soul is then brought in to put at peace any thought of an absolute end. The purpose of said soul is to take our conciousness to the afterlife, however, referring to the bullets earlier, the brain does not need a soul to operate. Therefore, the soul does not exist because it would need to do so independent of our concious being and our brain.​

I'm completely prepared to be torn apart by critique, it happens regularly with my spontaneous pondering

This is actually a fairly common viewpoint on what is called The Hard Problem of Consciousness. Many scientists are familiar with the question. However, there is no solid proof for either side of this argument and there is much speculation and debate in regards to this dilemma.

On a personal level, I inherently disagree with the suggestion that the human brain manufactures a person's consciousness.

Think of how a radio works and equate that to the functionality of the brain and receiving consciousness. The human brain imho is like a radio in that radios detect, receive, and transmit radio waves. The brain works very similarly, the brain acting to detect, receive, and transmit "conscious waves" if you will. Our brain and moreover our physical forms are merely transmitters for a much larger and much more powerful energy. The human soul.

Suggestions for further reading:
http://www.superconsciousness.com/topics/science/why-consciousness-not-brain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXW3QwAjRBQ
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2...ibuting-consciousness-to-the-brain-is-absurd/
http://realitysandwich.com/86571/does_consciousness_depend_brain/

 

[krutoi]

I think we do but it's something that nobody will ever know how to explain the feeling of it and when we turn into souls. It's like a status that will last unknown until our death (I guess).

 

[Kiln]

In every religion. How do you which religion is true? Believe in the wrong religion and you may just end up in hell and suffer extreme torture for eternity. Is God really that merciful?

Our brain has much more computational power than a Siri app. It's like asking what is the difference between a super computer and a pocket calculator; except that we 'know' that we have a consciousness.

Besides, what exactly is the soul? There has been a lot of evidence, observation and testing leading to the suggestion that our memories and personality is stored in our brains. Brain damage may cause alterations in the perspective of the world, memory loss, personality changes and so-on. So what is the purpose of the soul? For consciousness? And if souls exist, how would one know that each human body keeps the same soul during its lifespan.

That's a great argument for disproving having a soul