Do we have souls?

Leave it to the theologian to whimper and cower at the thought of death. The philosopher has no such fear, for he knows nothing awaits him and therefore has nothing to fear.

I got thinking about those who believe we have souls which live on after death and such. I believe the brain, and not the soul, is what makes us. I sort of paraphrased the works of Sam Harris more than anything.

If a part of the brain of a person is removed - such as memory or recognising faces, for example, then we lose the skill associated with said part. And when a person dies, they lose all brain functionality. If conciousness comes from the brain then either;

• The soul is independent of the brain
• The soul is dependent of the brain
• The soul does not exist

So, if the brain can be damaged and the soul not (commonly held belief), and the brain controls conciousness then it follows that said soul serves no function.

Which means this idea of a soul was just created to cope with grief and death - if conciousness ends, death is absolute. Most people do not want to believe so. The soul is then brought in to put at peace any thought of an absolute end. The purpose of said soul is to take our conciousness to the afterlife, however, referring to the bullets earlier, the brain does not need a soul to operate. Therefore, the soul does not exist because it would need to do so independent of our concious being and our brain.​

I'm completely prepared to be torn apart by critique, it happens regularly with my spontaneous pondering

 

I watched one movie with Morgan Freeman and it was about souls. Some scientists brought some very difficult to understand ideas, I liked the most one, which states 'soul' is like 'Model' of us, like class in programming which contains our traits and traits and informations about that what is around us basicly creating low-detailed version of us and what is around us. As we grow up/get older/visit more places, this version starts to be more detailed. I dont remember much about it, but that's what I actually believe now because that makes sense

Below it's not the whole video, but it's like trailer of movie I watched. I recommend it, watch it in free minute if you'll find full version
[youtube]5X5nUg_z9xk[/youtube]

So yeah, my opinion is soul is our own creation
√The soul is dependent of the brain

 

[BGlave]

Souls do not exist. It's a philosophy set by society/government that kind of forces us to act a certain way so that we would expect a good afterlife. The 10 Commandments; List of rules that puts the world in order. This goes for any religion as well. I rather live in a world where the majority is brainwashed into doing good than bad. We have set our own morals over time as we age.

Souls and brain have the same characteristics.

 

[reddogwwa]

Alright, bare with me...I'm going to try and explain my thought process before I dive into the question!

Who says a soul is something that can be explained through technology, thought processes, and knowledge we have today? It's natural for you to believe we don't have a soul because all your points are based on only what is known "today". Yes I know that's how we all make logical conclusions...based on "facts" and what is known today and not tomorrow....You know the run down sayings "They used to believe the earth was flat" or "The planets and stars revolve around the earth"...Those at the time were based on their truths through science. Of course today we laugh because we know the earth is pretty much a sphere...or is it ? I joke....anyway, that's my thought process on that.

I'm a pretty open and abstract thinker pretty much on all fronts. I like to play devils advocate so here I go haha.

I believe the brain is in control of our physical self. A physical self one can see, feel and examine! However we exist in the forth dimension but only see three of them? Now I'm not saying souls exist in the forth dimension because time is that forth dimension. Its such an abstract thing to think about, but we know its there, its around us 24/7 (literally lol) yet to fathom its actual existence is mind boggling. As I'm typing this I'm trying to get a grasp on even just the thought of being able to see it. And honestly it kind of just scrambles my brain haha. That being said.........there are still many other dimensions THAT WE KNOW OF...and who knows probably others we don't



Just because you cannot perceive it does not mean it isn't there!

Side note: I don't think of things in their traditional sense. When I think soul I do not immediately associate it with religion in anyway. A word is just a word and that's all that it is for me. I try not to get wrapped up in it.

 

But by that we may as well give up completely, no? We could just cease to solve problems and have opinions based on the fact that we've been undereducated or not fully aware of our surroundings before.

Surely we should have opinions based on what we know now & have access to and adjust accordingly when new information is brought forth.

I agree, though, some things hurt to think about. Most commonly thinking about the size of space for me, lol.

 

[reddogwwa]

But by that we may as well give up completely, no? We could just cease to solve problems and have opinions based on the fact that we've been undereducated or not fully aware of our surroundings before.

Surely we should have opinions based on what we know now & have access to and adjust accordingly when new information is brought forth.

I agree, though, some things hurt to think about. Most commonly thinking about the size of space for me, lol.

Haha give up completely....that actually gave me a good laugh! Probably because in my head I immediately said yeaa might as well haha. Butttt you are definitely right, we can't give up completely! I'm not suggesting that though, I was trying to say we should keep an open mind to the known unknowns =)! Which I know everyone definitely has their own opinions, I was just trying to hit you from a different point of view that you may not have thought of! I like to think and wonder so naturally I want to challenge people to do the same haha.


You are right again, facts and information are always being amended ! That's why I don't necessarily like to live by them. Or view them in the form of absolute truth in which they are presented at that specific time.

HAHA I completely understand! I see these universe threads and I steer clear to avoid getting my ass completely handed to me, lol.

 

[MohtasaUnique]

I'm an atheist, but I believe in a soul. I can't imagine there can be any chemical process complex enough, and with enough endurance to last 70+ years, to give us consciousness all our lives.

I also read an article of a dying man who agreed to be euthanized minutes earlier than his expected time of death so that his death could be monitored by an air-tight, hypersensitive scale to see if any mass is lost upon death. Indeed, despite the fact that absolutely nothing could have exited or entered the chamber that he was in, his weight dropped a fraction of a gram, and they're venturing to call that lost weight "his soul". An ethereal substance that isn't bound by matter, much like how neutrinos don't interact with matter, yet still have mass. So that's interesting. I'll try and find it, it's definitely worth the read.

EDIT: here's a scientist's ongoing experiment with the subject:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

 

[reddogwwa]

I'm an atheist, but I believe in a soul. I can't imagine there can be any chemical process complex enough, and with enough endurance to last 70+ years, to give us consciousness all our lives.

I also read an article of a dying man who agreed to be euthanized minutes earlier than his expected time of death so that his death could be monitored by an air-tight, hypersensitive scale to see if any mass is lost upon death. Indeed, despite the fact that absolutely nothing could have exited or entered the chamber that he was in, his weight dropped a fraction of a gram, and they're venturing to call that lost weight "his soul". An ethereal substance that isn't bound by matter, much like how neutrinos don't interact with matter, yet still have mass. So that's interesting. I'll try and find it, it's definitely worth the read.

EDIT: here's a scientist's ongoing experiment with the subject:
http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

I'm going to play devils advocate again, I'm sorry haha...
EDIT: Never mind lol, I was going to argue that generally speaking we haven't had the endurance to last 70+ years until the the medical field really elevated it game. I know what you're saying, even if it was 30 years its still crazy when you think about what your body has to do to keep you alive. I mean fuck, your heart rate on average 60-100 times per minute. 3600 beats an hour...86,400 beats a day...31,536,000 a year...my car breaks down like every 3000 miles and that thing is made of cast iron and steel haha. So I can understand how you would think something else is at play to keep us going!

I remember hearing about that study a while ago, I'm going to read it now...thanks!

EDIT2: That is an interesting read! I would be great to see those test replicated today though!!

 

[MohtasaUnique]

I'm going to play devils advocate again, I'm sorry haha...
EDIT: Never mind lol, I was going to argue that generally speaking we haven't had the endurance to last 70+ years until the the medical field really elevated it game. I know what you're saying, even if it was 30 years its still crazy when you think about what your body has to do to keep you alive. I mean fuck, your heart rate on average 60-100 times per minute. 3600 beats an hour...86,400 beats a day...31,536,000 a year...my car breaks down like every 3000 miles and that thing is made of cast iron and steel haha. So I can understand how you would think something else is at play to keep us going!

I remember hearing about that study a while ago, I'm going to read it now...thanks!

EDIT2: That is an interesting read! I would be great to see those test replicated today though!!

Well, not so much bodily functions. Those ARE easily explained through chemical reactions in the body. Emotions are swayed with chemicals: serotonin, endorphins, adrenaline, etc. Muscle movement is possible through simple chemical and electrical processes: the heart pumps because of your continual ingestion of food fuel, your muscles grow because you ingest protein, you can breathe because your lungs have the work-capacity to move enough volume of air.

HOWEVER, consciousness is a different beast all together. What drives our creativity, aspirations, our need to invent and to better our life? Yes, nature creates gorgeous works of art, but it's always a FUNCTIONAL beauty. Fractals, the vibrant colors, the magnificent architecture that plants can manage: it's all because it's NECESSARY for survival. It's a chemical reaction that drives survival. Flowers grow in exuberant shapes and colors, not because they're attracted to that style of artwork, but because it attracts bees so they can pollinate, multiply, survive. Leaves, petals, the centers of sunflowers grow in a very precise and very beautiful phi-ratio spiral, not because they enjoy the asymmetry, but because it optimizes sunlight exposure and space-usage. These are not conscious decisions, they're chemically-driven, genetically-defined, programmed behaviors to optimize survival.

But then you look at humans who paint, make music, sing and dance, build and invent to improve life. Why do we do this? We can and have lived perfectly fine without the Mona Lisa, without the White House to shelter our consciously elected leaders, without flying buttresses, without the statue of david, without electricity. Yet here we are, unreasonably free-willed, our aspirations are too varied to be tied to the strict rules of biochemistry as we know it. No mathematical equations to date can accurately predict the day of the average human. Sure, one can make educated guesses based on routine, habit, and preferences, but literally anything can happen.

I simply find it impossible that Bach's Suite no. 1 is hidden solely within the chemical reactions of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, and calcium.

 

It's refreshing to see someone with a belief in a soul that presents a decent explanation, definitely got me swaying. But, alas, I'm still a non-believer! The brain is an amazing thing, and it on it's own is enough to convince me that all this creation and spontaneity is down to it's doing and nothing additional. To believe in a soul is to therefore believe in an afterlife, for what would it's use be if not. And I just can't fathom an afterlife no matter how hard I try.

Perhaps as reddogwwa does I should focus more on not living by absolute, scientific or physical evidence - there isn't much to look forward to being a "when I see it I'll believe it" type of person!

 

[MohtasaUnique]

It's possible the soul shreds itself when the host dies. I've no idea what the afterlife or lack thereof would turn out to be like. I haven't given it any thought so I don't have an educated guess for it. Bit if the possibility of one stops you from believing in a soul, then yeah, maybe the soul does with the body

 

[reddogwwa]

Thats pretty damn good MohtasaUnique...it really got me thinking actually. Never thought about it in that aspect before but I like it! Its interesting that that we don't really have a definite answer as to why we do the things you mentioned without a chemical necessity. Hey maybe there is some truth to that whole "God created us in his image" after all.

If you believe in God, which I know you don't MohtasaUnique and I'm not sure if you do Roary? Anyway if you "were" to believe in a God he essentially created a vast work of art through his own form expression. Which is pretty much what you explained as something we do for no apparent reason MohtasaUnique. I don't know something to think about haha, I myself am Agnostic...I believe in the existence of "A" God. Not in the traditional sense, hell he or them could be just a life form in the later stages of evolution than us.

I'll elaborate more after I get back from the firehouse, gotta go!

 

I don't believe in an external deity. I focus any belief, spirituality, 'religion' or worship toward myself. To focus on my own well-being rather than sourcing reassurance from a God. You can achieve something far easier by using self-belief and mind control than you could seeking wisdom or help from something external and as trivial as faith. No herd conformity here - embrace your own unique personality, sexuality, spirituality etc etc and don't follow the status quo like religion does.

 

[reddogwwa]

I don't believe in an external deity. I focus any belief, spirituality, 'religion' or worship toward myself. To focus on my own well-being rather than sourcing reassurance from a God. You can achieve something far easier by using self-belief and mind control than you could seeking wisdom or help from something external and as trivial as faith. No herd conformity here - embrace your own unique personality, sexuality, spirituality etc etc and don't follow the status quo like religion does.

Yea I could definitely agree with you. I've always said we are our own Gods. I was just taking what I said from an objective stand point! Trying to take in to account other peoples beliefs besides my own...because after all just because I don't treat it as absolute truth doesn't mean it can't be so! I could be wrong, I have been in the past haha.

Perhaps as reddogwwa does I should focus more on not living by absolute, scientific or physical evidence - there isn't much to look forward to being a "when I see it I'll believe it" type of person!

Give it a shot, its actually pretty fun. Until you make your own head spin with the infinite amount of questions that you will ask yourself. Even then...coming up with your own theories then shooting them down with a different set of logic's is fun, lol.

 

[GoinPacific]

I think we do have souls and souls are what makes us what we humans are.

Compare your self to a goat with no brain but it does have a soul. It walks, it eats and it baa's 24/7 and that's all it can do

 

[Glyton]

I don't think the soul exists, I think its kinda made up like magic.

 

[T V]

Many of you are making arguments for something you haven't yet clearly defined. What is soul?

 

[MohtasaUnique]

Many of you are making arguments for something you haven't yet clearly defined. What is soul?

My definition for a soul is consciousness. I don't believe consciousness is synthesized with chemical or electrical reactions or signals. Emotions are certainly influenced by chemical signals, but you can be conscious without emotions. That imo proves chemical reactions isn't the fundamental source of consciousness

 

Many of you are making arguments for something you haven't yet clearly defined. What is soul?

I was referring to the commonly held belief of a soul/being/conciousness that those who follow religion believe passes on to either an afterlife or another form of life/next life. The specifics of what it contains/is/does are variable depending on who you talk to.

 

[psycho sales]

No, I do not believe we have souls. I as well think our brain is what makes us, and we are what make our brains. (eg. personality, character, morals, etc)

Some people believe when you die, your soul goes to heaven/hell. However, I believe when you die that DMT overtakes your brain and you either dream/or have nightmares forever.

I strive everyday to make myself a better person. As Dr. Phil says along these lines, 'you learn to manage your life, not cure it.' Which makes perfect sense. I think its all within myself to learn to deal with my anger and try to be nicer to people, which is sometimes really hard. And that goes for just about everything. I feel that it's within you to focus on yourself and learn how to be a better person.

Which I would also put into perspective with the common belief that the soul is to cope with grief/death, as OP stated in thread. I think it's up to you and the way you want to cope with grief/death. Hell, (no pun intended) Mexicans embrace death; Day of the Dead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dead As for death, surely there's no EASY way around it (for me anyways) but I do think there are better ways to deal with it than others and that it's all within the type of person you are, which goes back to the brain.