Addendum: Can you please please please please stop repeating yourself? It makes it very annoying to look through your arguments.
You're telling me I'm repeating points when you're replying to a post that was directed towards 2 people - I formatted it pretty well where the split was between you and General_Kerr. To blame me for repeating points means you're not really reading the content of my post - rather, just replying quote for quote.
Even though it really isn't harmful! But regardless that's not important. Why do people need to be protected from themselves? Why can't we make our own decisions? I don't need America telling me what's good or bad for me, I'm fully aware.
Because people can be pretty stupid. It's called substance abuse. How many people fall into that trap?
Prove the smoke is harmful. Plus not only that but the amount of people ever exposed to it is extremely limited.
Seriously? Just the fact that smoking creates carbon monoxide, which you are inhaling directly, is harmful. Read about negative effects of carbon monoxide:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/carbon-monoxide-d_893.html
And if it's legalized, then second hand smoking will be more prominent. Do I need to give you a link showing how that is harmful as well?
This is pure conjecture and you know it, but nice try. The mental disorders that are usually triggered are known in family lines, not incredibly difficult for the user to take caution.
Knowledge is power!
This is pure conjecture (the underlined part) and you know it, but nice try. I would argue that some people would be unaware of the mental illnesses within their family line - things like depression, OCD, etc. are things that the parents of cousins, for example, would keep away from each other simply due to social pressure.
Knowledge is power!
We won't get anywhere like this.
Yes I would, but this is completely irrelevant.
Well hell, perhaps I should try to convince you why heroin and cocaine are bad before I even start talking about hallucinogens.
And if you're saying it's irrelevant, you're attacking General_Kerr's argument, which went something like this: "Hallucinogens have positive medicinal benefits, therefore they should be legalized for recreational use."
You really want to head down this road? Well schizophrenia hallucinations tend to be indistinguishable from reality, psychedelic hallucinations on the other hand will almost never considered a reality post trip and reflection, unless the person wants to believe that. Even during most trips hallucinations can easily be distinguished from reality, there are very few exceptions to this in the drug world, and those are very rarely used. (Such as DPH)
Few exceptions, really? Did you read the links I gave you?
http://science.howstuffworks.com/lsd5.htm
"They become uninterested in participating in the world going on around them and feel completely disconnected from everybody else. The real problem is that because they're taking LSD so often, they think the LSD is creating the illusion that their life is a mess instead of recognizing that it really is a mess."
Sounds like they're blaming LSD for aspects which really exist in their real lives! That's both delusional, and it shows how the LSD users sometimes cannot distinguish reality from illusion.
Dude, trace the argument, please. I don't mind going point for point, but do it carefully, or you may get lost. General_Kerr underlined "auditory hallucinations" in the definition of schizophrenia, and then concluded that hallucinations of schizophrenia are no where near those of someone under a hallucinogen, because hallucinogens such as DMT are concerned with visual hallucinations. I simply highlighted that visual hallucinations are a part of schizophrenia - and auditory hallucinations are a part of hallucinogens!
This isn't entirely correct, especially for psychedelic (LSD, DMT, Mushrooms, 2c-b, 2c-c, Nbome) hallucinogens. Delusions are most common under the dissociative (DXM, MXE, Ketamine, PCP) and deliriant (DPH, Belladonna, Datura) lines of hallucinogens.
It is entirely correct - it's pure common sense. I gave the analogy of a computer. We'll just criticize one point though - you're saying LSD doesn't make you delusional. So when the person jumping out of their window thought it would be okay because they couldn't judge the distance from their window to the ground properly (the hallucination aspect), are you saying his/her decision wasn't delusional?
Look at the definition of both terms:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Delusion_vs_Hallucination
Hallucinations are false perceptions (generated by the brain). That's it - analysis of these perceptions are NOT included in the definition. Delusions are false, inferential beliefs about external reality. If a person hallucinating is imagining inexistent things in external reality, obviously his inferences on external reality will be false, as they're based on inexistent things.
E A Poe was a opiate addict and an alcoholic not a hallucinogen user. His sensationalized writings on hallucinations don't mean a thing.
Oh cool, now let's read what I said again. I'll underline the important parts:
"Have you ever read The Tell-Tale Heart, by Edgar Allen Poe? Google it -
it's a good example of hallucinations causing a delusional mindset."
This has nothing to do with Edgar Allen Poe himself. I said hallucinations were causing delusional thoughts. Do you really want me to prove it in this story? Fine - whilst stalking the old man, the protagonist claimed he could "hear his heartbeat", which is an auditory hallucination. Based on this hallucination, he concluded that he must kill the old man, so the "neighbors won't be annoyed with the sound of his heart". Are you telling me this isn't delusional? It is. Now what was this delusional mindset caused by? An auditory hallucination.
If you're willing to argue that you must have hallucinations to be able to conclude that they can cause delusions, you're wrong. It's common sense.
That page just points out the theory of LSD causing schizophrenia, which is debunked.
Yes, but you're missing my point. I'm claiming that I'm not the only one who thinks the effects of schizophrenia are similar to those of a hallucinogen. Nowhere did I claim that LSD (for example) causes schizophrenia. LSD may not cause schizophrenia, but my argument is that it has SIMILAR EFFECTS to schizophrenia. And guess what? Why was research done to see if LSD could cause schizophrenia? Because of the one sentence on that page which actually corroborates what I was saying: "The early work thought that LSD-induced hallucinations or psychosis resembled so-called schizophrenic hallucinations, and LSD psychotics resembled so-called schizophrenics."
You're incorrectly comparing one drug's effects with hallucinations in general. Everyone reacts differently to different chemicals. I get extreme anxiety from cannabis, which is unusual to most people, but that's me, I got the bad side effect.
This is a cop-out. How do you expect me to explain every case, with every single human being, and using every drug classified as a hallucinogen? I cannot - it's not humanely possible. The best way is for me to take examples. The fact is, if the TC states that DMT is "the most powerful hallucinogen", then any other negative side effect of
any other hallucinogen I talk about has the
potential (underlined that so you don't tell me this statement is logically inconsistent) to be exacerbated when speaking of DMT. Unless the TC is wrong.
Besides read on, there was no ill effects afterwards mentally or physically.
How many times have I said that I don't care about the after-effects? I care about what you think while you're on it - what delusional actions you could do.
Those are incredibly rare mind you, and most major falls were actually deemed suicides.
Suicides? Hmm, and I wonder why the person felt extra suicidal whilst on LSD (overly excited emotional responses due to the LSD is the answer you're looking for).
Oh, and no, they're not
just deemed suicides. Some were caused by misjudgement of distance, as I have said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ld_fly_and_jumped_out_window.2Ffell_off_cliff
And there are cases of people on LSD walking in front of cars and getting killed, getting into a car accident whilst driving, etc.
You're looking at DMT reports, of course you're going to read intense visuals on the most visually intense psychedelic. Try reading reports on LSD or 2c-c, very different.
Let's not forget what the title of this thread is - it's concerned with DMT.
Anyhow, according to this website (
http://science.howstuffworks.com/lsd3.htm), a good trip on LSD might look like this:
Looks pretty intense! And that's actually a good trip - imagine a bad one.
I actually had to scroll down to read what the hell you were quoting. Education helps in people's decisions to take a certain substance, understand the risks and prepare accordingly.
Exactly - give them proper education. Not that all drugs are okay.
We keep coming to this point because you're like a broken record.
Oh mage3158, you blame me for your own faults. I made it EXTREMELY CLEAR in my post that I was talking to 2 people. Want to see the evidence? Look at what I said below:
I said it practically makes you temporarily schizophrenic. Never said anything about the "after-effects".
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To mage3158 (although I suggest you read as well, General_Kerr):
See that huge line, and then the part where I say "to mage3158"? That means that I'm starting a new post, with new content. I'm not going to refer you to read what I said to General_Kerr - I repeat common arguments to you. You should thank me for saving you some scrolling time!
Can you honestly prove it's the hallucinations that cause delusions? And if so is it a specific nature of hallucinations or all hallucinations? This is very important.
I've already addressed this above. And it deals with all hallucinations of perceptions related to external reality.
Most I've heard was not a disorganization but thought loops. Not the same.
Disorganized thinking:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/disorganized-schizophrenia/DS00864/DSECTION=symptoms
"Disorganized thinking causes illogical, nonsensical thought patterns."
You're telling me thought loops aren't a "nonsensical thought pattern"?
You're fucking kidding me.
Oh yes, I must be kidding! God, we should introduce LSD into the workplace - maybe that will hasten our productivity!
I provide links, and yet you reject my claims with empty ones.
Who cares the reason people don't continue? This is a red herring.
No it's NOT a red herring. It's good to know why people would ever stop a drug. It can show how intense a drug really is. If the drug is really intense, then how can it be deemed legal and safe to use? People generally don't know their limits - look at how many people get drunk on alcohol. If they can figure out their limits on DMT, then that just shows you how intense this drug really is.
Again, who cares? Unless you can prove serious issues are directly linked with that, it doesn't matter at all.
It's funny how you always ask for proof, rather than empirical evidence. But okay, we'll stick with proof.
Premise 1: Hallucinations can cause delusions.
Premise 2: Death can be caused by delusions.
Conclusion: Hallucinations can cause death.
And hallucinogens cause hallucinations. I can provide empirical evidence for both of these premises (already have, actually). If you agree that they can be true, then you agree that the conclusion can be true.
Now death is extreme, but you can replace it with something as simple as "irrationality". If DMT causes irrationality, then that, for me, is still considered to be an extreme issue.
We don't need protection from something because it's too intense for some people, we should be able to decide.
I wouldn't like to live in your idea of a perfect world, where drugs like heroin and cocaine are legal.
Don't forget, we are a society. For my own safety, I don't want LSD to be legalized so that OTHERS can use it whenever they want and, for example, drive on the streets when they are having a trip. We already have a problem with drunk driving - no need to introduce other sources of problems. Imagine if there were LSD bars!
But what you do at home has NOTHING to concern me. If you want to take LSD at home illegally, I have no say in that - it's your choice. But don't ask for it to be legal so you can take it out in the public!
And this is where correctly educating people of drug use comes in. It may not be a good reason but this is surely a big reason why people try these things. When people are more educated on these matters they can make more educated decisions on what to and what not to take. And people who don't consider it? That was their choice.
Exactly - let's educate them appropriately.
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To General_Kerr:
I'm still reading, and will get around to my reply tomorrow hopefully.
Yes, excuse me, I can be pretty verbose.
1. You keep referring to LSD, which is not DMT on many counts. Bad effects from LSD != bad effects for DMT, necessarily. Whether or not the two compare is conjecture.
Yes, but you said that DMT is the MOST powerful hallucinogen. So the effects of LSD can be argued to be weaker than those of DMT, based on your claim!
2. I'll find more sources for my points in the future...
That would be great, but most things you'll find are forum posts from biased people.
3. In that trip report the person had been using pot, LSD, drinking heavily etc... Had childhood abuse, and other problems buried. DMT brought these out... They also had an odd mindset that caused them to relate to the experience differently. The person never said they regretted it, however. I think that her change in mentality may have been because of the forced confrontation with Her abuse, and other issues.
DMT bringing those out is still a bad effect - it's exacerbating potential mental illnesses which would've never been prominent without the utilization of the drug.
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