[DENIED] Contracts forum

[Superfluous]

We are increasingly relying on terms of service (ToS) to help users resolve disputes. These ToS are largely all over the place and tend to provide insufficient coverage for both providers and their customers.

I think we should create a forum where users can share, negotiate, and agree to ToS with other users. Each user could have a thread containing the ToS for their different offerings, and users could quote-to-agree to other users' ToS in this forum in the same way that users currently agree to use middlemen's services in that forum. Use of this forum would not be required but would be encouraged, and staff would largely let users work out their own ToS agreements provided that they abide by site rules.

The main advantage I see with doing this is that it will allow ToS to become subject to market competition over time. In other words, providers will start to compete on price, "trustworthiness," and ToS, which should benefit customers in the end. Publicizing ToS will also lead to certain practices becoming standard, such as "take a photo of your account's bank before and after letting someone else on it." This type of change, which would be difficult to enforce with a rule, would quickly become the de facto market standard if major service providers all began offering it.

I am sure we have to think about this a little more to make sure we get it right, but I do think adding this type of forum would benefit a lot of users. Thoughts?

 

[Poat]

This would solve the issue of ToS disputes and all around seems like a very good idea.

I think this would encourage users to actually read and understand what set of rules they are agreeing to and allow them to possibly negotiate terms that are fair for both parties and at the same time can easily be linked to specific service disputes.

Support. (All though i'm not so sure about "Contracts Forum" maybe something a little less scary like just sticking to "Terms of Service" and putting it below the vouches forum in the market tools section.)

 

[Dom]

for such a standard protocol in the modern marketplace, the ways of ToS' have forever been stuck in old age.

there should be a standard set of basic terms of service according to the market you work in. you can look at 10 different people's threads (say, in user services) and find 10 different terms that are essentially saying the same thing. in my opinion, the lack of basic ToS procedure creates confusion as well ToS not being viewed professionally and just as a "ah well, here's the sellers rules" mentality.

Support on the idea of a global ToS standard and procedure.

Sidenote, has there ever been legitimate discussion on ToS' outside of sythe (aka discord, gold sites, etc) ?

 

[Lorenzo]

I also support the idea of ToS structure. I think it is a good one and glad it's being brought up.

 

I don't support this,

I think the current system is fine and I believe this would just drag out the process too much.

 

[RuneChips]

I disagree with this suggestion, I don't think a new forum is needed for it. How about making the TOS Sythe users put in their threads applicable?? What's the purpose of that if it doesn't even apply like 90% of the time

 

I think that bare minimum T.O.S. should be required on the threads that users are advertising a service/account on. But I don't really see a problem in adding a new forum either. To be the devils advocate though, how many people would realistically use it? Do you think it is actually beneficial to have T.O.S. be a major reason for a sale? And lastly, how many users are going to continue to be ignorant of T.O.S. in the first place, whether it be a buyer or a supplier? It seems like the big issue is ignorance, if you have a way to solve that then we would be much better off. I'll support this, but I think a few of those questions above should be viewed as reasons to vote yes or no.

 

I have come to find that this seems to be a bit of a grey area. I'm a little surprised that there's nothing in the official Sythe.org rules that mentions ToS. I think, because of how specialized ToS can be depending on the service, broadened rules should be established to give staff the ability to more effectively deal with reports that include a ToS disagreement. Just spitballing here, but some rules that can be established are as follows:

1. Providers and procurers of a service must explicitly state their acknowledgeable and acceptance of the ToS.

Self explanatory, but I think it's really important for this to be explicitly stated.​

2. Providers can not use their ToS as a way to circumvent Sythe.org's official rules.

This is stated in a sticky in the OSRS Accounts subsection, but it's a relevant example. Someone selling an account can not say they are never responsible for helping recover an account when the subsection rules states, at the very least, the seller must maintain one month of "recover responsibility."​

3. It's up to the Staff's discretion whether someone has violated the agreed on ToS. The Staff can also deem an article of the ToS as frivolous.

This rule is broad, and some users could be uncomfortable with that, but with how specialized ToS can be depending on the service, I think it's fair. For example, take a look at this dispute. The following is part of the accused's ToS:

President services may at any point cancel an agreement. If costs have been made by President Services the user is bounded to pay them. One hour of labor will be estimated to be worth 1.50$. One working day will be estimated to be equal to 8 hours of labor. When a service is canceled, it is assumed that 5/7 of the days that passed from the moment of creation of the agreement to the moment of cancelation are working days.

I didn't scrutinize that report, and I'm not trying to call this person out. However, as BlackBlasses stated here, this would be a dangerous precedent to establish. What if someone else stopped their service without due cause, and claimed reimbursement for costs incurred? What if someone else priced an hour of their labor vastly above "market price?" I think establishing a rule to encompass these situations would help.​

Didn't really mean to type so much lmao. Just my two cents. Definitely scrutinize what I wrote. Feel free to improve on them or disagree with them or whatever.

 

I do think something needs to be done, a lot of services try to play that "you ordered you know the TOS" and that's bullshit.

They could just as easily go the extra mile and make a automated bot that makes you agree to the terms via texting such as "!agree" in the chat and confirms that you did.

This is an example, a lot of our customers obviously know the TOS and a lot of returning customers do too, but EVERY order we follow the same protocol, this is something so easy to support as it needs to happen, and if not that then a simple bot like this that can be shown just as good.

 

[Skiller 0001]

What about having a "recommended template" t.o.s, that way service providers can agree with said wording and make minor changes from it.

The way some people word things due to language barriers and various other factors is a joke. I've seen it a few times as a guest and now as a user I see similar situations.

 

I don't support this,

I think the current system is fine and I believe this would just drag out the process too much.

I agree with this - think of all the new members who come in and will have an even harder time trying to purchase something without getting scammed/review ToS. Most don't even care about a ToS it seems or know what to look for.

 

We are increasingly relying on terms of service (ToS) to help users resolve disputes. These ToS are largely all over the place and tend to provide insufficient coverage for both providers and their customers.

I think we should create a forum where users can share, negotiate, and agree to ToS with other users. Each user could have a thread containing the ToS for their different offerings, and users could quote-to-agree to other users' ToS in this forum in the same way that users currently agree to use middlemen's services in that forum. Use of this forum would not be required but would be encouraged, and staff would largely let users work out their own ToS agreements provided that they abide by site rules.

The main advantage I see with doing this is that it will allow ToS to become subject to market competition over time. In other words, providers will start to compete on price, "trustworthiness," and ToS, which should benefit customers in the end. Publicizing ToS will also lead to certain practices becoming standard, such as "take a photo of your account's bank before and after letting someone else on it." This type of change, which would be difficult to enforce with a rule, would quickly become the de facto market standard if major service providers all began offering it.

I am sure we have to think about this a little more to make sure we get it right, but I do think adding this type of forum would benefit a lot of users. Thoughts?

I suggested a TOS thread section about 3-4 months ago and was told its too much of a headache just take a picture of your clients agreeing to your TOS, and that a client could edit or delete their post / service provider could change theirs after someone agreed to it to make it different.

Having an open template for everyone to see TOS kinda feels pointless since the providers who already use TOS and are larger providers we dont have these issues generally where a TOS is even brought up.

Its been almost 2 years for me and theres not been 1 time I had to pull the "well you agreed to my tos card"

Still interested to see where this suggestion goes.

Yellow Hat

 

[Superfluous]

We're not going to add a forum for this, but I'll write a sticky for ToS info/examples later this week.