Feedback.

I agree with most of this, besides the fact that you think so many staff members don't care about the site.

 

I do agree with this to an extent, but I also feel like the people that are so in favor of this are just mad because they aren't promoted/haven't been promoted in the past. If you look at the way a normal manager is promoted in the workforce, a complete stranger which the staff know nothing about personally/professionally is usually not your typical candidate. They want someone who is punctual, someone who is trustworthy, reliable, and professional. I know it's a different scenario on a forum, but the staff still have to have an idea what's under your skin, and usually by getting in their circle is what allows them to do so.

I've been on this site for almost 3 years now, and I've never been apart of that "inner-circle." I've made many friends on this site over the years, a few being on staff. I was never a frequent member of the IRC, and never expected anything in return for my help to this site. I feel like the people complaining (even if you believe you're being professional) are actually quite immature. People get way too involved with this site, and the more time they put into it, the more they feel they are entitled to something in return.

I do agree that it is wrong to have a so-called "dnp list" for users of this site, but that goes off the opinion beyond just one staff member. In order to never be promoted, you have to be disliked by most of the staff I would say. If most of the staff are not pleased by your attitude, then I feel it would be awkward anyway with a member like that apart of the team.

 

I'm not mad because I am not a moderator as I said...Also I did not bring up any point about some "inner circle", that was dialatic. My issue is that when people show they want to be a moderator, they are not promoted because they are "trying to hard", when in fact we should embrace people who want it.

I'd rather not see Sythe die. I've put a lot of time in to it, and I've met a lot of great people here, so if I can do something to prevent it from dieing, I'll do it.

There isn't a real DNP list, it was figuratively relating to what I said above.

 

You stated obviously that you vouch for everything that he said. This must include the "inner-circle" conspiracy...

Who said the site is dying? You were banned yesterday for a day, and during that day, Sythe was still up and running perfectly fine. The site has lost traffic yes, but you can only predict the future of Sythe.

If you have such a problem with the majority of the staff, I don't see why you'd ever want to work with them as a team. I honestly wouldn't want to work with someone with an attitude such as yours... especially after that closing statement in the OP.

However, I agree with you on a point. I feel some promotions are personal, and not so surprising. I think there should be a more complex system on how a user is recommended for the promotion and shouldn't be as rushed as it seems.

 

Pardon, I am not a very good speaker and this may come out as confusing. (For the most part why I have not participated in many controversial threads.)

I agree with most of what you're saying. There are two things that have really bothered me during my time here at Sythe: The lack of motivation or desire to change and many promotions/ the staff roster. (And username changes but that's a personal annoyance and I won't get into it.)

First of all, EVERYTHING is set in stone and there is little room for ideas or innovation. This was touched on by Dialatic with the "Do Not Suggest" list but it goes farther than that. It's getting to the point where the Suggestions sub-forum may as well be removed because it is absolutely useless. A suggestion that gets TON of support has as much of a chance of getting recognized as one that is immediately locked. Maybe the occasional "change the name of this sticky" but in all honesty what has really changed over the past year? In order for anything to get implemented it has to be a large staff initiative because no one listens to anyone if they are not staff. (For example Mohtasa's fantastic suggestion of a chatbox which would have been locked immediately if it weren't made by my lovely Tony. Even though it's been months and nothing has happened [and I'm guessing won't happen in accordance to the way things generally go here], the suggestion would not currently exist if made by a newcomer.) Now I feel that this is an issue for two reasons: First that the staff are WAY too hasty to lock anything that doesn't feel right and that even the greatest suggestions that would potentially further or jumpstart the site (I commemorate x339 on his persistence and ideas although terribly executed.) are either strongly opposed for trivial reasons or forgotten about because the administrators who have the power to actually implement them.. are never here.

This shows up in the way that staff treat the users under them as well. There seems to be this diluted mindset going on here. It's either that or people just don't care. x339, Alma Mater, Laptop65, etc. etc. You know the kinds of people I'm speaking of (not to generalize you all into one group.) These are cases of people who legitimately care about the site but in the snap of a finger would be shunned from the community for good if certain staff had their way. But I think they are the best kind of members we have or have had. There is definitely a feeling of superiority among many staff members that causes these issues. "Hey, I'll just close this thread because it's from a user who is being annoying, has no ranks, and will be forgotten about tomorrow; or I'm simply done arguing with him/her." Or worse, the notion that we'll be better off without this individual. We as a community need ever member we can get. Have you seen the Spam Forum lately? The market is going to dust. The Runescape and OT sections are great but lack the activity that is needed to keep them successful because no body is willing to do anything about it.

So there's that. And then there are the staff. I don't mean to undermine anyone I've worked with for the past 5 months as a staff member but I honestly do not understand why some people even accept some of the promotions they are given and stay on staff to begin with if they don't use the site. This isn't a paying position, so what is the point of just barely passing by when you don't post anywhere else? It makes the staff look weaker and it's an absolute waste of time.

This site consists of members, both staff and non-staff that really care about the site. I by no means am saying that most of the staff are incompetent. I honestly love you and I love this site but it hurts me to see the site going in the direction it is in. It's stale and that is going to be key to its downfall.

 

It's hilarious how so many people are pissed off at what's being done right now. Yet, nobody with the power has the courage or the desire to do anything about it. This site is completely backwards. What's being done is wrong and what's not being done is right. The people who truly care about helping the site aren't staff, AND ON TOP OF THAT, are ridiculed for even trying to help the site. The people who are staff don't give a flying fuck about the site, or anything that happens to it (not implied towards everybody).

This site is so backwards, it's like living in the woods in Virginia, back in the 1930's.

 

Sort of one of the better posts I've seen from you. The people that are actually trying to help, and posting their real opinions are the ones that don't really care if they become mod (anymore). My guess is for the others, it feels like it would affect their chances.

The staff does care. They do help in other ways, but their mindset is elsewhere to help make an actual change. x339, Nero and Dialatic has that mindset, but not the power or respect to be taken seriously or heard.

 

For that I thank X339, we may but heads but I do thank you for that.

Thanks Nero, I have been trying to get online more lately.

 

You're generalizing so much, x339. I don't know about your ban situation, maybe there was some bias that needs to be addressed, but overall there are issues with your posts. You'll find out in life that being condescending forgoes little progress. I'm not asking you to kiss ass but when you say "The vast majority of staff members really don't care about the site" you're simply wrong. People won't want to work with you when you say things that are factually incorrect. That's your problem along with a few other users.

But let me guess... I'm part of that sinister, site destroying inner circle conspiracy; therefore, my posts are irrelevant.

 

Hi Sypherz.

anyway I will agree with something Karl said earlier and it was pointed out into this.

Mods, sectional and global, are here to re-enforce and to take care of the community, but it is admins job to be innovative and whatnot. Some people I'm not saying dial or x339 but just people around blame mods when it isn't there fault.

Either way shooting blame doesn't really help unless any suggestions or feedback is takin with a grain of salt.

I think I might just be very tired and rambling so you can ignore this post if you want to lol.

I remember a time when all people did was bash members, staff, etc and people would say well come up with ways to help or things to do, but now that people have it is like a sin. I do believe alot of staff take feedback an adjust accordingly now, I think suggestions are starting to actually being takin into thought if they are good, and I think things are slowly changing.

Again I just realized I shouldn't be typing right now and this is mostly ramble so I guess I am saying things are changing a little from what they use to be it seems like? brb sleeping

tl;dr I am rambling

just edited to say you are so corrupt! I know that was not sarcasm...we have you figured out nick

 

the only mods that arent corrupt and biased are video and dave.

why these guys? because they steer away from the community drama and focus on moderating the market section

maybe a few others but cant think of others atm...

 

how did you get unbanned after the first time lol.

What you just said is ridiculous by anyone's standards

 

This sums everything up.

 

Agreed.

 

That being said, I'm gonna dive head-first into this community drama, and I'm going to be 100% honest in everything that I say while also trying to respect the privacy of the staff lounge.

x339, you were banned because you broke a rule. You were also UNbanned because staff determined it was a mistake to ban you for posting a link in the spam forum. I can tell you now that no one on staff has it out for you. I can understand why you might think so, but it's just not the case. If you want staff to listen to what you have to say, you're going to have to abandon the "omg all the staff hates me" attitude. Some staff dislike you sure, but no one hates you to the point of stalking your posts looking for a reason to ban you.

Now let's break down what you have to say point by point:

"How moderators are chosen"

You probably won't believe me, but staff do not deny people promotions because they're "too helpful" or "too obvious that they want to be promoted". Whatever global posted that, they only get one vote in a promotion poll anyway. Also, you've left out a lot of details about that situation, and I'm going to guess that there's more to that story then just "he made it too obvious he wanted mod".

One caveat: In the past, I agree that there have been some very very shady promotions (pretty much all during Finn's reign). I'm of the opinion that staff promotions as of late have been much more well-deserved than in the past, maybe you disagree. I'd just like to say that IMO the promotions of Dave and Yaroow for example are much better than those of Awesome Stranger and Add my Msn in the past. I used to be very much of the opinion that staff promotion choices were bullshit, but they've gotten much much better in recent times.

Staff highly value maturity when they make promotion decisions. You can be all the help in the world, but if you're not mature or if you have a horribly negative attitude, you're not going to get promoted.

There's more I'd say about this but it's way too much to be typed up, so I'll just move on.

"The staff really does not care"

First, community development. Honestly, it rubbed me the wrong way when I got removed from community development and was basically asked to reapply for a position I was already told I would have, and did hold for some time. Now, the reason I'm not reapplying is that I'd rather see someone else take my place. I think there are people on this site with better ideas for growth and development than myself, and I'd like them to be the ones working on that--not me.

It's not fair to say that the majority of the staff don't care about the site. There might actually be some people who don't care, I don't know, but definitely the majority care very much about the site.

"Everything's personal"

Unfortunately you listed no specifics here besides your own ban, which I addressed, so I don't really have anything to say here. I'll just say this: if you expect ANYONE to be completely unbiased in their decisions, you're gonna have a bad time. Sythe staff are human too, we have preferences and dislikes, and those preferences and dislikes lead us to make the decisions we make. We are not MORE biased or MORE preferential in our decisions than the average person. I can at least say that much.

"Listen"

If you want staff to listen, you're going to have to layoff of the negativity. It's entirely too much, you're making sweeping statements that are too easy for staff to deny. For example "staff don't care" "EVERYTHING's personal". I'd love nothing more than for you to post a feedback piece that didn't contain blind negativity. Also you're feedback is extremely bossy.

"you're suffocating the forum you've spent quite a bit of time on. Maybe you don't realize it, but you are, and you need to open your eyes so you can see what you're doing"

I'm not sure how you expect anyone to listen to you when these are the things you have to say. Less bossiness, more helpful suggestions and criticism. That's my recommendation.






Apologies for the length

 

Your sig is fucked up, I've reported it to the proper authorities.

Anyway, everything is personal, and any staff member who thinks they can speak for the whole of the staff's opinions is an idiot as well.

 

There aren't any restrictions on the number of people in community development, we want as many people that we think would be beneficial to the team and to sythe as a whole. It's basically what staff say about there being no set amount of moderators, there are no set amount of community development members. I encourage you to apply since you are interested.

 

Idiot reporting in. If any staff disagree with what I've posted as "staff opinion", I apologize in advance. I don't mean to presume that I know everyone's opinion, I just noticed there haven't been many staff replies to this thread and that I could maybe help people understand better some beliefs held by staff as a whole.

@Jack
Awesome, I'll apply then

 

Going to try my best to respond to each of these things individually. I'm not the best "speaker" but I'll try anyhow.

How moderators are chosen -

I feel like everyone who attacks this point makes it too general. I think what you should do, is actually go and make a staff feedback and put your honest opinion about each staff member. All of us ask for feedback and most of us say "be as brutal as you can, I want criticism." On that same note, I don't think "Clashfan is a great guy but he doesn't do anything and only stays promoted because he gets modlogs and people like him" is really good feedback. Whenever you analyze mods, it seems like you're more giving reasons for why they should be demoted as opposed to what they should change. Maybe it won't change a thing if you post it, maybe it will, but I honestly think it'll get your point across better if you approach your criticism about mods/staff in a different way.

Back on topic about the whole how people are promoted thing. There's a lot of things that people thing makes someone stand out for mod, maybe it's true maybe it isn't but there's always the exceptions, so what makes "User X" any different. The two examples that come to mind for me personally are Video and Punjabi.

Video was a market god. He literally knows the market better than anyone, at least in my opinion he does. He's never on IRC, I don't see him in the spam forums, he was always stationed in the market and that's it. Yes he was popular and probably known as the largest or second largest marketer and donator on the site, but this generalization of how all staff are promoted doesn't fit for at least half of the members on staff, or at least I'd thing so.

Second example, Punjabi. Honestly, he's a detective and fucking amazing at being one. Hasn't he caught about a zillion vaders/report about a billion people? Yes he sits on IRC but he also openly admits to being disliked by a lot of users on staff around the time of his promotion. From what I saw, the only thing he did on the what seems to look like a "path to promotion" was be on IRC.

I honestly think (and I hope you don't pull some excuse like that last time you said you didn't want to make a list) is go through the staff roster and seriously just criticize each staff member to the point where you honestly think you've called out every flaw, and it wouldn't hut to maybe add your opinions on some possible solutions. I know I'd love to hear what you had to say about not only myself, but every other user on staff.

The staff really does not care -

This is where I think staff is too general of a term, and hear me out on this before calling me an idiot. Sectionals, what are they for? Sectionals in my eyes are here to keep the forums clean, and literally do the bitch work. Take that how you may, sectionals are here to help out, and literally keep their sections clean and moderated (for lack of a better term).

Globals are the next step up. More influence, more power, and also a bit more responsibility. Really, the thing that differentiates between a global and a sectional is their access to full perms, and ability to take part in polls in the USL.

Admins, and this is the point I'm trying to get to. Admins are the ones who are in their positions for the overall bettering of the site. The way I see it, is that admins are "created" so-to-speak when globals are going above and beyond their global moderating duties to actually try and help out the site.

No personal offense to ANYONE on the global team, I just see these two users and the easiest to explain this with. n4n0 and SuF, many believed that the next administrative promotion would consist of one of these two. SuF works his tail off trying to get the site to be more user-friendly, he is level-headed, stays out of stupid arguments, and he also presses to make improvements. n4n0 also works his tail off to help the site. Whenever something is going on, whether it be the hacking of Arcus' site, a flaw in MSNs security system, or a mass-hacking begins, the guy loses sleep and watches the site like a dog until he feels like it's safe once again.

FireZ, Govind, Verts, and n4n0 all are in their positions for a reason, unless you think there's a "path to becoming an admin" as well.

I feel like from time-to-time we all forget what a staff member is supposed to be doing based on their level of staff. Sectionals keep the forums clean, globals hand out/issue bans and have their influence on things in the USL. Admins are the ones who have the most authority and from what I see, the admins use it each in their own individual way.

Just because someone doesn't have these labels doesn't make them useless. For instance yourself and Brendan come to mind. You essentially own Com Dev, don't you? Yeah whatever you lead it with Verts, but you do the work, I don't see why you need to have a moderator label to get your work done. Brendan helps out a crap-ton in the community as well, as did wulfspade before his promotion. Brendan with his MoTM, Wulf with the Sythemothlies and such. Yes the recognition is a major confidence boost, but it's not necessary to continue with the things you are. Just because you aren't promoted to community mod or whatever you're aiming for doesn't mean you need to give up on trying to press for future improvements or try to work on things such as community development.

Everything's personal - Yes, yes it is, but is this really 100% wrong? Everything is examined case-by-case. If it wasn't Pardoned users like myself or yourself wouldn't be here right now. If it WASN'T personal and everyone was looked at under the same light, realistically Sythe would be a hell of a lot different and if you ask me, it would be for the worst. I'd prefer things to be personal than generalized any day, because each individual situation needs to be put under it's own light, as does each user.

Listen

About all the threads that are closed because mods are upset about what is in the threads. Haven't you noticed that a LOT of the threads that end up like this, usually stray so far from the topic that it gets to the point where it's a flame-war that will end no where? Dialatic's thread contained a lot of great points, hell yes I'll admit it, but also was it necessary to call out certain staff members for being friends and say that they received their positions because of it? More then half the posts on that thread were related directly to the post regarding "n4n0's friends." Yes it may seem like I'm posting this to cover my own ass, and who cares if I am, because the point is that thread had potential to maybe get staff's attention had it not been a personal attack on a bunch of staff users. Staff and non-staff had posted that they agreed with some of Dialatic's points regarding suggestions and such, but the stuff regarding Staff and the corrupt nature of all the staff users, etc. was unnecessary and IMO ultimately led to the lock.

The thread about OGV Ranks, and you saying that it's locked because staff think they're right. Who gives a shit if there is or isn't an OGV rank. Let's be honest, the users in OGV are trusted, if they aren't they wouldn't be there. What the hell is the point in having an entire rant about it, when you yourself even say there needs to be focus on improvement and moving forward. Complaining and causing problems about a new rank isn't going to make Sythe any better of a community.

tl;dr I agree with everything that everyone is saying about the need for change. However I think that there are better ways to try and bring about this change, attacking staff won't get you there. You know it, so try a new approach, and stick to attacking staff in the feedback section. A user doesn't need to be on staff to make changes. Prime example is Alesso. He got an entirely new market and discussion section added with simply his knowledge of a potential market. He got a bunch of well-known users to post their opinions on it, and through pressing about vote results and such the section was added.

Sorry for everything being so scattered, had a few things I wanted to say just wasn't very good at road-mapping everything. Writing isn't my strong spot lol.

 

I might as well voice my opinions.

This is kind of ironic as you probably wouldn't say have the things you said in here, if you truly did know 'how it works'.

I think this is a hyperbole. While I would agree that certain mods would instantly vote against the promotion of some people, I don't think you mean to say that if they reform their character and display qualities in harmony with the abstract 'mod material', then they would be promoted. Of course mods have prejudices, we all do, and it takes time to eradicate those prejudices, but to claim that some people are 'never going to get it', is a mistake, because it presupposes that their character remains static, which, no one's character does.

Interesting.

I think you are assuming that it is because they are 'trying' to 'become a moderator' that they are instantly shut down. Is it at all possible that the unintentional behaviour demonstrated when trying to become a moderator is the cause for them being 'shut down'. For example, being sycophantic, is a pretty good way to get 'shut down'.

Don't know much about it. I would say however that it was not the only, be all, and end all reason, and if it was, then I think it was a mistake.

I see your argument, but I reject your premise that people are denied solely on the fact that they care. I wholeheartedly agree that it would be asinine to do so, but, having observed several promotions, at least from a sectional level, I can say that this is not the case.

I'm sure you can become a moderator one day, even if you continue caring about the site, but I personally think it is the way you go about things that ticks people from staff off. When you nominate yourself to be put in the spotlight, people are going to pick at every little thing you do wrong, especially if they are prejudiced against you. The fact of the matter is, the way you conduct yourself isn't seen positively, and while your intentions are admirable, some of your actions are not, and unfortunately, because you attract so much attention, these poor actions get magnified for all to see.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Your argument is that if the staff care, they would apply for the community development. The staff have not applied for the community development team, therefore they do not care. This is a false modus tollens, because if you are saying that Sythe does not care about his site, then you are sorely mistaken. You see, these are the sort of things that tick certain staff off. You are telling them that they do not care! I take the angle you are coming from, but there are better ways to go about getting your message across than saying 'you don't care'.

Begging the question from your previous argument.

Notwithstanding the fact that this is mere opinion, I would instead view it as people care about the site with varying degrees. It's not that, to use your examples, that Clash and Frenzy don't care about the site, but rather, dj and SuF care about the site seemingly more than they do. I honestly think every single mod cares about the site to a certain point, they wouldn't be here if they didn't care one bit.

You really are speculating. On what basis do you posit that 'the only reason they are in the position is because they like the power and the rank that comes with it'?

The only reason 'they are in it' is because they got promoted. If you want to say that the only reason they remain, then please, where is your evidence. You are speculating over peoples personalities.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree.

It's very hard to remain totally impartial when you have emotions...

A stretch.

I can tell you, that the globals/admins actively try to make sure everyone, including themselves gives off a professional vibe. This IS a fact, ideally, we do try to remain professional, obviously, since we are human, this doesn't always happen, and we let our predjuces, and emotions dictate our course of action (which is fine really to a certain point).

As for the common, the more or less 'friends argument' for people getting, or remaining in staff. Look, it's probably true, we are humans, and we like our friends. BUT, it's not absolutely true just because someone has a lot of friends, doesn't mean they'll make a bad staff member, it merely puts them on the radar quicker. What about those who weren't friends with a lot of staff members? They can, and still do get in.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really don't agree with most threads like these getting closed.

A beautiful example of the false analogy fallacy. The difference is, that consumers say the food is bad based on empirical evidence that they know first hand to be true. On Sythe however, some members say they know the activity of moderators when their only medium of gauging one's activity is through a subjective view of the moderators activity as opposed to a more objective mod log system with a standard of evaluation.

This wasn't really a good analogy.

The example was easy to grasp, but it was entirely wrong...

You're telling that to a bunch of people that don't care one bit, remember?

I did not proof read btw.