Abortion

[Swan]

As for Swan I know you think abortion is "right" but it's not maybe it's the same as killing a 2 month old baby,killing is killing but since you Atheists have no idea was a bible I'll tell you one of the commandments.

Thou shall not kill--no exceptions?

First of all: Why should I follow a commandment founded on the premise that there is a god to enforce this commandment?

Second of all: I believe that this commandment was made with the understanding the people had at the time - The concept of the abortion of an unborn child was seldom heard of, if ever and they probably didn't even know what a fetus is. That commandment is likely focusing on the premise of killing other rational people, not a fetus.

Also 1 more thing you call it a parasite well let me tell you something parasites don't have souls (besides atheists) and they are not important and they could never be something important unlike a baby they can grow,learn,etc. let try being less black-hearted.

You had better be able to prove the existence of souls before making such a far-fetched argument. A fetus, by definition, is a parasite. To tell you what you just said, a fetus "doesn't have a soul."

Furthermore, there is no evidence to support the existence of what you call a "soul", and such spiritual arguments have no place in a rational debate to begin with.

Lastly, black hearted? I laughed. If you wish to describe me as "black hearted", do so. Do so in knowing that I couldn't care less what you think I am. By "black hearted" I am assuming that you are talking about me being overly negative, but on the contrary, not caring is not equal to being negative, and I'm having a highly amusing (positive) experience merely debating this.

How would you like it if your mom aborted you?

This is just gold. Seriously. I laughed a LOT.

Let me give you my answer:

I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't dislike it either. I wouldn't have ANY emotions in regard to the subject. Nothing. Zero. Do you know why? BECAUSE I WOULDN'T BE HERE TO EXPERIENCE THOSE EMOTIONS. If I was aborted, how would I know? A fetus has no self-concept, therefore it doesn't know that it has been aborted.

But to give an answer in regards to my own death, I view death differently from most people I know; everything has a time to die, and if my time to die happens to be immediate, why bother caring about that?

 

[shoompa]

to be honest this video opened my eyes to what abortion is all about.

after someone referred me to abort73.com

here is the video

http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-case.html

Apply this to a different scenario: There are humane ways to kill a fully grown, living dog.

note that even if it is "humane" it is still killing.

should people that kill by injecting toxins into someone else's body not be put in jail? because they killed them "humanely"?




"Injustice of this magnitude must be seen to be understood, so until your willing to face what abortion does, you will never truly understand what abortion is"



"Strategically positioned in minoirity communities, abortion destroys black children at 3 times the rate of white children. Coincidence?"

"Whatever the intent of the abortion industry may be, by functional standards, abortion is a racist institution. In the United States, black children are aborted at 5 times the rate as white children and Hispanic children don't fare much better. "

 

[Shredderbeam]

to be honest this video opened my eyes to what abortion is all about.

after someone referred me to abort73.com

here is the video

http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-case.html

That movie rests its entire argument on an emotional appeal by showing us the bodies of fetuses that look physically like babies. Unfortunately for their argument, the similarities end there. These fetuses, at least in the early weeks, have no conscious experience, and do not have the necessary nerves or brain development levels to be capable of feeling pain. Destroying them is no worse than killing a frog, or a worm.

"Strategically positioned in minoirity communities, abortion destroys black children at 3 times the rate of white children. Coincidence?"

It might have something to do with the fact that, on average, blacks are less wealthy than whites, and that abortion rates are higher for the poor.

"Whatever the intent of the abortion industry may be, by functional standards, abortion is a racist institution. In the United States, black children are aborted at 5 times the rate as white children and Hispanic children don't fare much better. "

Doctors don't make the decision to give a woman an abortion - the woman herself does.

 

[shoompa]

this can all be said about killing someone mentally retarted and to some "isn't there"

 

[Shredderbeam]

this can all be said about killing someone mentally retarted and to some "isn't there"

It depends on their level of retardation. If they have Down's Syndrome, for example, they can still hold preferences, they can still feel pain, and so on. If, however, they're so far gone that they are essentially a shell - a body with no mental presence at all - then why would it be wrong to kill them?

 

[shoompa]

It depends on their level of retardation. If they have Down's Syndrome, for example, they can still hold preferences, they can still feel pain, and so on. If, however, they're so far gone that they are essentially a shell - a body with no mental presence at all - then why would it be wrong to kill them?

how can we be sure that some can still hold preferences, or that a fetus can't feel pain. there are videos of the fetus's repulsing and trying to move away from the poison as it slowly suffocates. wouldn't that tell you that it feels that? Any way's how can you be sure that a body has no mental presence at all? Technically you need 'mental presence' just for the body to stay alive...

 

[Shredderbeam]

how can we be sure that some can still hold preferences, or that a fetus can't feel pain. there are videos of the fetus's repulsing and trying to move away from the poison as it slowly suffocates. wouldn't that tell you that it feels that? Any way's how can you be sure that a body has no mental presence at all? Technically you need 'mental presence' just for the body to stay alive...

The fetus does not have the biological capacity for pain, up to a point.

A worm will squirm if you stick a needle into it. That does not imply that it is sentient.

You do not need mental presence for the body to keep functioning - as clearly illustrated by the existence of those who are brain-dead.

 

[hashslinger]

I am watching a series on something that discussed ethics and I have come to this conclusion.

If you are an aithiest you have no ethics. You have to follow that law and that is it. Other that you can do whatever you want. Like you said all guilt is is a chemical reaction in your body. If you believe life has no point then all life is, is to live for yourself and yourself only.

When it comes to religion however, rules are laid out in the bible. It tells you what is right and wrong. I am sure you have read the bible and are familiar with what it has to say. I believe every human has a soul and I also believe that every human deserves life.

Now also tell me.. do you think the rules in the bible are worth following even if you aren't a christian?

 

[flipscapes]

It's very wrong because it's like killing somebody, you made someone lose this life that is very wonderful (though polluted and etc.)

 

[Swan]

I am watching a series on something that discussed ethics and I have come to this conclusion.

If you are an aithiest you have no ethics. You have to follow that law and that is it. Other that you can do whatever you want. Like you said all guilt is is a chemical reaction in your body. If you believe life has no point then all life is, is to live for yourself and yourself only.

I have ethics - ethics are defined by one's person. If you choose to define "your ethics" by a medium such as the bible, sobeit.

You're throwing a large blanket over everything - you're referring to ALL atheists, not just the particular atheists who share this view.

When it comes to religion however, rules are laid out in the bible. It tells you what is right and wrong. I am sure you have read the bible and are familiar with what it has to say. I believe every human has a soul and I also believe that every human deserves life.

The rules of then do not really apply to now. Their ideal was a lot different to ours. What they thought was right then does not apply to now. I'm sure you don't like the idea of people being crucified, etc.

I've read the bible, yes. It is a very interesting storybook.

Why do you believe that humans have souls?

A fetus is not yet a rational being, why does it deserve life? Note: The future holds no sway in a rational debate of present time.

Now also tell me.. do you think the rules in the bible are worth following even if you aren't a christian?

Some of the rules are basic common sense, but the others I find to be complete bullshit - It's a yes and no from me.

It's very wrong because it's like killing somebody, you made someone lose this life that is very wonderful (though polluted and etc.)

We've been through this already: that "someone" is not yet a rational conscious human being, and therefore is on the same level as one who is braindead. Note: Braindead people are essentially a waste of space.

 

[Rune Shadow]

I support abortion.
I dont want my girl to get pregnant just cuz of stupid incident

 

[Shredderbeam]

I am watching a series on something that discussed ethics and I have come to this conclusion.

If you are an aithiest you have no ethics. You have to follow that law and that is it. Other that you can do whatever you want. Like you said all guilt is is a chemical reaction in your body. If you believe life has no point then all life is, is to live for yourself and yourself only.

That is not true. There is a reason that most atheists are not mass murderers: People in general don't like to kill.

When it comes to religion however, rules are laid out in the bible. It tells you what is right and wrong. I am sure you have read the bible and are familiar with what it has to say. I believe every human has a soul and I also believe that every human deserves life.

Would you be a moral person in the absence of God? That is to say, if you somehow knew for certain that there was no divinity at all (no afterlife, no souls, no angels, etc.), would you continue to live morally, or would you immediately begin to murder, rape, and loot?

Now also tell me.. do you think the rules in the bible are worth following even if you aren't a christian?

Having read the Bible, I would not advise it to anybody as a guide to morality.

It's very wrong because it's like killing somebody, you made someone lose this life that is very wonderful (though polluted and etc.)

You're not killing "somebody". You're killing something with no sense of identity or capacity to feel pain.

 

[hashslinger]

That is not true. There is a reason that most atheists are not mass murderers: People in general don't like to kill.

Yes and acording to you, people feel emotions and all this is is a chemical reaction in the body giving you a sense you are doing something wrong.

Would you be a moral person in the absence of God? That is to say, if you somehow knew for certain that there was no divinity at all (no afterlife, no souls, no angels, etc.), would you continue to live morally, or would you immediately begin to murder, rape, and loot?

I would change a little - alot. I do however care about other people and how they feel so it would be against my nature to hurt them regardless of the absence of God.

Having read the Bible, I would not advise it to anybody as a guide to morality.

And why not? Tell me things in the bible that would hurt you physically, emotionally, or mentally.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Yes and acording to you, people feel emotions and all this is is a chemical reaction in the body giving you a sense you are doing something wrong.

You're partly correct - emotions are based on chemical reactions, and also on past experiences. If you are brought up to think that stealing is wrong, you'll likely feel guilty when you do it. This is basic biology and psychology, however. What are you trying to say?

I would change a little - alot. I do however care about other people and how they feel so it would be against my nature to hurt them regardless of the absence of God.

Well, you've just undermined your claim that a belief in God is necessary to be a good person.

And why not? Tell me things in the bible that would hurt you physically, emotionally, or mentally.

A few of these are good:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

 

[hashslinger]

You're partly correct - emotions are based on chemical reactions, and also on past experiences. If you are brought up to think that stealing is wrong, you'll likely feel guilty when you do it. This is basic biology and psychology, however. What are you trying to say?

That according to your belief in evolution we have no ethics. Just chemical reactions in the body.

Well, you've just undermined your claim that a belief in God is necessary to be a good person.

I never once said that a belief in God is necessary to be a good person. I try not to sin because it is bad... The bible says that sexual immorality is bad. Cant you see why? everyone ends up hurt in the end. Now if there was no God I would have a different outlook on this and I wouldnt care.

A few of these are good:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

This is irrevilant to what I said. These are people in the bible and people will be people and do violent things. I ment things like the ten commandments. Cant you see the bible is filled with wisdom?

 

[Shredderbeam]

I never once said that a belief in God is necessary to be a good person. I try not to sin because it is bad... The bible says that sexual immorality is bad. Cant you see why? everyone ends up hurt in the end. Now if there was no God I would have a different outlook on this and I wouldnt care.

Well, you just said:

I do however care about other people and how they feel so it would be against my nature to hurt them regardless of the absence of God.

Which is it?

Also, sex does not lead to everybody getting hurt in the end.

This is irrevilant to what I said. These are people in the bible and people will be people and do violent things. I ment things like the ten commandments. Cant you see the bible is filled with wisdom?

God also killed over two million people:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html

The Bible in general is held up as a guide to morality. One list of commandments does not make the entire book good.

Also, out of curiosity, shall we see how many of the 10 commandments are actually good moral codes?

The 10 commandments:

1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s."

Interesting. Let's shorten it a bit, shall we?

1. Only worship God.
2. God is jealous, so don't make any graven images.
3. Don't use God's name in vain.
4. Don't work on the Sabbath, because God said it's holy.
5. Be respectful to your mother and father.
6. Don't murder.
7. No adultery.
8. No stealing.
9. No false testimony.
10. No jealousy.

The first four are useless - they presume that God exists. The rest are ok, but they're universal human values - virtually every human culture has them in some form. They're not unique at all.

 

[hashslinger]

Which is it?

I dont understand why you are getting at.

Also, sex does not lead to everybody getting hurt in the end.

People get emotionally hurt from it.

God also killed over two million people:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html

Most if this was war. And if someone died it was because they directly disobeyed God.

The Bible in general is held up as a guide to morality. One list of commandments does not make the entire book good.

Also, out of curiosity, shall we see how many of the 10 commandments are actually good moral codes?

The 10 commandments:

1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s."

Interesting. Let's shorten it a bit, shall we?

1. Only worship God.
2. God is jealous, so don't make any graven images.
3. Don't use God's name in vain.
4. Don't work on the Sabbath, because God said it's holy.
5. Be respectful to your mother and father.
6. Don't murder.
7. No adultery.
8. No stealing.
9. No false testimony.
10. No jealousy.

The first four are useless - they presume that God exists. The rest are ok, but they're universal human values - virtually every human culture has them in some form. They're not unique at all.

These are not the only commands in the bible. Yes the first four are useless if you dont believe in God but other than believing in God... The bible gives all kinds of wisdom from Health to Financial to almost anything you can think of.

 

[v Angel v]

I support abortion.
I dont want my girl to get pregnant just cuz of stupid incident

WOW! I LOL'D for so long! BTW use a condom.

That is not true. There is a reason that most atheists are not mass murderers: People in general don't like to kill.



Would you be a moral person in the absence of God? That is to say, if you somehow knew for certain that there was no divinity at all (no afterlife, no souls, no angels, etc.), would you continue to live morally, or would you immediately begin to murder, rape, and loot?



Having read the Bible, I would not advise it to anybody as a guide to morality.



You're not killing "somebody". You're killing something with no sense of identity or capacity to feel pain.

1.No hashlinger is right no religion no ethics
2.No,but if you have no faith you might no care for consequences.
3.That's just your point of view many people use it as such.
4.It's developing though a alternative

 

[Shredderbeam]

People get emotionally hurt from it.

On what basis do you say that? Have you reviewed statistics on this matter? Are there properly done surveys involving thousands of people?

Most if this was war. And if someone died it was because they directly disobeyed God.

Do you understand what war is? Not every single enemy soldier is a wicked, immoral demon - most of these people lead normal lives within their home country. Do they have children? Do they have parents who await their return? They are just soldiers, doing their job - why are they ALL slaughtered?

Or let's look at another example: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/16.html#1

To sum it up, a bunch of Jews ask Moses and Aaron why they're acting superior to everybody else, when all the Jews are supposedly holy. After a brief argument, the leaders of the discontented Jews (along with their wives and children) are sucked into a huge hole in the ground, where they die. The next day, the congregation is (understandably) upset, so they quietly complain that God and Moses have killed God's people. God is so angered by this that he kills 14,700 people by plague.

What a guy.

These are not the only commands in the bible. Yes the first four are useless if you dont believe in God but other than believing in God... The bible gives all kinds of wisdom from Health to Financial to almost anything you can think of.

Yes, there's a lot of good, practical advice that reflects the type of people that the Hebrews were. There's also a lot of awful advice, such as beating disobedient children (or even stoning them).

1.No hashlinger is right no religion no ethics

No, he's not. Ethics are not based upon religion.

2.No,but if you have no faith you might no care for consequences.

It doesn't require faith to care about going to prison.

3.That's just your point of view many people use it as such.

I have never met anybody who consistently uses the Bible as their guide to morality, with no exceptions. Have you read it from cover-to-cover?

4.It's developing though a alternative

It's still not an actual person.

 

[Markface]

It's anyone's opinion. You can't decide the opinion for others.

If you think there's nothing wrong with it? Abort if you want to.
If you think it's religiously wrong, value life etc, Don't abort.

The number one dangered species isn't some pissy animal in the heartland of Africa but instead a human being who's willing to maintain their choice of acceptance and speech.

People have to wake up and realise that personal prefrences are merely opinions and not the laws of the land.

Do what you want, do not enforce a view on something so touchy.