Question for Sythe in Regards to Stolen Goods

[ivyfpop]

Ye, Sythe mentioned on R2P's thread that if the gold was acquired via ingame mechanics, such as staking bugs/pking/glitches then it's fine.

@Sythe, what happens when someone is scammed INGAME for items, and then those items are sold here? Sort of a grey area, as luring is technically considered scamming people for items by some users here.

I feel like the fine line should be down to the final staff decision, but you also have to think about, will somebody come straight out and tell somebody else that they scammed or did som it ething along the lines of scamming when they are trying to sell the gold? Also, I feel it depends on how the gold was gotten, was it glitched like the crucible glitch where the money can easily be tracked back to the dupers and all the members involved and even buying the gold banned, or is it some glitch that has a very rare chance of a repercussion. I personally believe as long as the scamming wasn't done outside of rs it should be let go.

 

[SuF]

I don't think we've ever considered using in-game mechanics (whether intentionally coded or a bug) as stealing.

It's been debated so many times. I believe finally decided on what you have said. Not entirely sure though.

 

Ye, Sythe mentioned on R2P's thread that if the gold was acquired via ingame mechanics, such as staking bugs/pking/glitches then it's fine.

@Sythe, what happens when someone is scammed INGAME for items, and then those items are sold here? Sort of a grey area, as luring is technically considered scamming people for items by some users here.

If you can demonstrate a contract external to the game. I.e. give me X items in game for Y monies outside game, then that's a matter we can deal with.

If Jagex put a button in their game tomorrow that let you get all of another player's items by clicking it, then we would do precisely nothing about it. It's their game mechanic. We don't have any control over / care about how their game operates internally. We're just dealing with common law disputes over the trading of services.

 

[S]

If you can demonstrate a contract external to the game. I.e. give me X items in game for Y monies outside game, then that's a matter we can deal with.

If Jagex put a button in their game tomorrow that let you get all of another player's items by clicking it, then we would do precisely nothing about it. It's their game mechanic. We don't have any control over / care about how their game operates internally. We're just dealing with common law disputes over the trading of services.

Good. I've always been opposed to punishing people for what is allowed to be done in game.

 

[Heads447]

The point I'm trying to make is that he was banned originally for selling duped gold. Then later, when he knew he had no chance of getting unbanned, did he lie to staff. Correct me if I'm wrong.

bump???

 

[SuF]

The point I'm trying to make is that he was banned originally for selling duped gold. Then later, when he knew he had no chance of getting unbanned, did he lie to staff. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I really don't remember. I think it was because he lied more than anything.

 

[Wolfdog]

I really don't remember. I think it was because he lied more than anything.

Justundude repeatedly lied to both his buyers and staff members.
He was selling duped gold, which had a high risk of being lost, and lied to everyone.

 

Justundude repeatedly lied to both his buyers and staff members.
He was selling duped gold, which had a high risk of being lost, and lied to everyone.

That would constitute fraud then.

 

[Heads447]

Justundude repeatedly lied to both his buyers and staff members.

Yes I think we ALL know that was what ultimately led to his ban...He probably wouldn't have lied about it if he hadn't been banned in the first place and knew he was never allowed back.

He was selling duped gold, which had a high risk of being lost

>mfw

I don't think we've ever considered using in-game mechanics (whether intentionally coded or a bug) as stealing.

Edit:

That would constitute fraud then.

Fraud??????? Either I'm totally stupid or now you just contradicted yourself.

 

Fraud??????? Either I'm totally stupid or now you just contradicted yourself.

Yes apparently you are? Go back and read my posts.

If he was selling gold which he claimed was botted gold, when he knew full well it was duped gold, then this is fraud.

It's no different than selling someone an airline ticket by saying its first class, and its actually a steerage class ticket for a boat.

Is this stuff really that hard to understand. REALLY?

The common and commercial law has been around for a very long time in one form or another (well over 2000 years). And it's been worked over pretty good by philosophers, thinkers and judges during that period. Do you really think you're going to magically pop up and pick holes in the way contracts work? -- Without even having studied the subject?

 

I'm starting to think everyone on sythe believes that they have a magic loophole to legally to get away with murder. You haven't, you're just ignorant.

 

[Heads447]

If he was selling gold which he claimed was botted gold, when he knew full well it was duped gold, then this is fraud.

A liar, a fraud--tomatoe, tomato. The point is that he was banned in the first place for selling duped gold.

The common and commercial law has been around for a very long time in one form or another (well over 2000 years). And it's been worked over pretty good by philosophers, thinkers and judges during that period. Do you really think you're going to magically pop up and pick holes in the way contracts work? -- Without even having studied the subject?

I'm starting to think everyone on sythe believes that they can get away with murder.

And now you're just going completely off in a tangent, thus I rest my case here. And what does murder, killing someone, have anything to do with this lol?

 

[MVP RiSing]

lmao? This isn't the spam forum; stop spamming. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion of this thread then gtfo. You're not getting mod anytime soon anyways.

I do not get why people are hell bent on driving the guy mad.

about things that are common sense the guy is clearly smart i do not want to write a book to you stating the obvious.

He has built this website/forum that we all enjoy.

He has clearly stated his wishes on the matter and even taken the time to respond to nonsense posts and still you go on and on and on.

 

[Rsaccounttrader]

As corey said, I didn't ban him. And you are addressing me as though an appeal to my sensitivities would change the facts of the case. Receiving stolen property in full knowledge has always been a bannable offence on sythe.org. Publically posting a guide on how to do it is also a bannable offence.

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that everything on sythe.org is immoral by default and therefore there is no difference between legitimately obtained virtual goods and stolen virtual goods. I am here to tell you that there is most certainly a difference, and further there is nothing immoral about trading services with one another. It's a basic expression of your freedom to contract with whomever you choose.

And re: jagex's terms of service / contract with you. If you buy and sell services with other players you may be breaking your contract with Jagex... if Jagex's ToS can be regarded as a contract in the first place. That's your choice, your issue to deal with. I would point out that you never signed anything, and that trading services with other members does not lead to any damages to/against Jagex. In other words even if they had legal injury as a result of you trading freely with a third party (very unlikely) then they would still lack any damages. Legally then, it's not an issue (legal injury: maybe, damages: none). Morally it is certainly not an issue (it is not a violation of the non-aggression axiom.)

Further, when you sign up to Runescape, Jagex gives you the right / access to exchange their virtual gold. They put restrictions on this right (according to their contract; which is questionably valid) which involves your intent. That is: if you intend to make a real profit from trading their virtual tokens then they say you cannot do it.

However legally you are allowed to give gold away for free. And legally people are allowed give you real property for free. All gold trades are broken naturally into two pieces anyway, as you cannot have a direct exchange of gold for dollars. That is: It's always a blank trade (i.e. exchange for nothing) in Runescape, followed by a blank trade in real life.

You certainly can have a contract to exchange gifts with another person. So I would hesitate to say you were even breaking your contract with Jagex, if a contract can be said to exist at all.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Thank you for your detailed response. I am still a bit iffy on the moral side of cheating, regarding comparative advantage with other players and the axiom "do onto others as you will have them do onto you", but honestly, that is neither here nor there in this debate over Viou's ban. I am also iffy on the legality of account recovery (While I believe it should definitely be a bannable offense in this community, I do not consider it, legally, fraud, and could refute your argument by (what I considered) improper analogy. I will not pursue debate however, as it is not critical to my two main objections of Viou's ban and I'm trying to limit pissing people off.)

I do now believe that knowingly trading gold that was stolen is not virtuous. I still am uneasy about Viou's permanent ban for two reasons.
1. If other gold sellers were doing the same thing (as R2P and Grave were shown in their argument to have had dubious dealings), then only banning Viou because he was discovered first, and/or more frank about it, is unjust.
2. Even though his actions were unethical, the rules were not fully codified regarding this issue, so a permanent ban is harsh. To strengthen my argument, I attempted to show that some other activities on this site can also be considered unethical but within site regulations. You are firmly convicted that they are not unethical, so I wont further anger you/take up your time arguing the point. Anyway, even without that point, my original position is still sounds: Viou did not explicitly break any Sythe.org rules.

I believe I am done discussing this issue. I'm sorry if I pissed anyone off. I thought Viou wasn't getting his fair shake so I decided to provide the best defense possible as he has been a good community member, even if I didn't necessarily believe in some points I made.

 

A liar, a fraud--tomatoe, tomato. The point is that he was banned in the first place for selling duped gold.

No. Selling duped gold was not against the rules.

You need to go back and RE-READ what I have written.

Let me spell it out for you because clearly you are mental retarded.

A fraud is an intentional [criminal] deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual.

This is not the same as selling duped gold. Do you see the difference?

Let me reiterate: If you sell me a banana under pretence that it is an apple, then this is illegal. THIS DOES NOT MAKE THE SELLING OF BANANAS ILLEGAL.

And now you're just going completely off in a tangent, thus I rest my case here. And what does murder, killing someone, have anything to do with this lol?

IQ = 3.

Go to a dictionary: look up: fraud, look up: idiom, look up: idiot. Close the dictionary, throw your computer out the window, apply for a job cleaning toilets.

 

[Heads447]

I thought I'd just let you know that I followed through with the advice you gave me:

Go to a dictionary: look up: fraud

http://puu.sh/2aaNf

look up: idiom

http://puu.sh/2aaQG

look up: idiot.

http://puu.sh/2aaUI

throw your computer out the window

http://puu.sh/2aaWb

apply for a job cleaning toilets.

http://puu.sh/2aaKq
http://puu.sh/2aaMc

 

I thought I'd just let you know that I followed through with the advice you gave me:


http://puu.sh/2aaNf

http://puu.sh/2aaQG

http://puu.sh/2aaUI

http://puu.sh/2aaWb

http://puu.sh/2aaKq
http://puu.sh/2aaMc

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL combo breaker
how can we be sure we're purchasing stolen gold or not ?
//Nevermind, that's the answer on my question, I should read it before:

WE ONLY BAN FOR KNOWINGLY BUYING STOLEN GOLD

 

[Grave]

An interesting question I'd like to raise: If we're treating gold as something that can be stolen and treated as a stolen good, would someone have to return it under the same principle, if proof surfaces that it is indeed stolen? I already know the answer, but I'm a little high right now and that just mindfucked me.

 

An interesting question I'd like to raise: If we're treating gold as something that can be stolen and treated as a stolen good, would someone have to return it under the same principle, if proof surfaces that it is indeed stolen? I already know the answer, but I'm a little high right now and that just mindfucked me.

If it can be shown who it was stolen from, maybe. Depends on the specific situation.

 

[Punjabi3]

Just un didn't lie lol he just chose not to tell people which dupe he used, people asked him if he used the cruciable dupe and he said no because he didn't. Just un told me it was duped when I asked him before buying but he refused to tell me it was from a duelling dupe. He eventually got twc'd for selling duped gold and then banned for not saying where his gold came from. Also the crucible duped gold was mostly removed through account bans and wipes but the gold just un, roy and another guy duped were never removed. Just un was twc'd for lying about where his gold came from and permed by karl for a pm he sent him.

The basis for Just un's ban started with http://sythe.org/11310695-post48.html a person who bought off multiple people which used the crucible dupe and then bought more gold off just un http://www.sythe.org/11319998-post2.html 2 days later.

I'm fairly sure the large sellers/ buyers didn't warn their buyers of where their gold came from considering most had either bought of just un and roy or matkias and his partner.

Matkias had an early start and had already moved 250bil to some of the biggest gold buyers/ sellers here before just un and roy caught on.

Either way assume I bought off someone who exploited an in game mechanic but it could put users at risk similar to just un would the same penalty be upheld if I were to resell that lets say duped gold and was fully aware of where it came from but chose not to tell my buyers.