Question for Sythe in Regards to Stolen Goods

I think that the real issue is that most traders on Sythe are far too busy to do a background check on every single person who sells gold. We are all operating on strict deadlines with the new PA 20 minute timer, and buyer demands for instant delivery. Buying gold is often a frantic process in which we must make split second decisions on whether to buy or not, at the immediate risk of the business being brought elsewhere.

If we want this new method to work on Sythe, we need to have a quick and simple way of verifying gold is legitimately obtained, which absolves us from liability. Without a quick and simple way to confirm the legitimacy of the gold (to the best of our ability), we will become decreasingly competitive to anyone operating outside of Sythe.org.

My suggestion is that gold shops post some sort of disclaimer before a transaction. For example:

Before I trade with you, you must promise the gold you are selling is from a legitimate source, and is not hacked / stolen / otherwise illegally obtained. If that is correct, say "YES". If incorrect, say "NO".

If we provide this, and they have not provided any other details at the point of sale, I think the order should be legitimate. Although this obviously leaves open the ability for someone to just lie to us, I can't think of any other quick way (or realistic way) to verify legitimacy. The problem with virtual currency is that it has no serial #, and no direct way to distinguish dirty gold from clean gold. Please post your thoughts on this, Richard / community.

 

[Corey]

How many times does this have to be said for people to understand;

WE ONLY BAN FOR KNOWINGLY BUYING STOLEN GOLD

If they didn't tell you its stolen gold you're fine, but if someone tells you its stolen gold and you buy it, you're not fine.

 

This is fine.

However if they explicitly tell you its stolen goods or you have good reason to believe that it is, then you need to close the window and block the user. This should be completely obvious.

 

So let's say someone told me 1 month ago on Skype they are a hacker (such as my case). If I don't scroll through my convos with them, and read it all, I don't know this. How does that work for liability. In the future I should just block them I suppose?

Define "knowingly".

And Corey, we are not trying to pester you guys on staff, but this is important for us to make clear. I know right now that the major sellers are putting in 16 hours+ per day on their shops. The potential risks to this (perm ban) are detrimental, we want very clearly communicated rules.

To define "Stolen Gold". I'm sure we all agree on the following:

- Hacked Paypals / other fraud
- Scammers on Forums
- Recovered Accounts?
- People who rob others at gunpoint for RS GP in a New York College classroom

How about these though?

- Duel Arena Buggers
- Lurers in-game
- Ban Evaders on Sythe

 

So let's say someone told me 1 month ago on Skype they are a hacker (such as my case). If I don't scroll through my convos with them, and read it all, I don't know this. How does that work for liability. In the future I should just block them I suppose?

Define "knowingly".

And Corey, we are not trying to pester you guys on staff, but this is important for us to make clear. I know right now that the major sellers are putting in 16 hours+ per day on their shops. The potential risks to this (perm ban) are detrimental, we want very clearly communicated rules.

You need to re-do your system so you can flag IP's/users. When someone says something that raises suspicion they should be flagged. Then you won't have any trouble.

Yes evidence of them telling you that they are a scammer and then you subsequently buying from them does constitute evidence of knowingly buying stolen goods.

 

I think the definition of stolen gold is pretty clear.

If it was someone else's and they took it by force or fraud then it's stolen.

We don't include in-game mechanics or bugs, because these are just aspects of the way the game is played like pking or staking or anything else.

 

[Rsaccounttrader]

I think the definition of stolen gold is pretty clear.

If it was someone else's and they took it by force or fraud then it's stolen.

We don't include in-game mechanics or bugs, because these are just aspects of the way the game is played like pking or staking or anything else.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only thing Viou admitted to doing was trading goods previously "stolen" (or obtained by dubious means) in game, which you just said you don't consider stolen?

"Viou: by scammers I mean people who acquired it through highly dubious methods in game (bug abusing, account recovering)"

Edit: I just read through everything Viou has posted on this topic of his gold buying. The only out of game scammers he admits to dealing with are account recoverers.
Important things to note:
1. Account recovering is NOT illegal, as far as I can judge. Therefore, taking gold off accounts recovered is not, legally, stealing.
2. I, and most members of the market community, consider account recovering a very immoral offense in the context of our community. I would not buy gold if I knew it had been hacked via account recovering.
3. There is no clear statement in the rules that bans this reselling gold that was obtained via account recovery.

 

[Corey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only thing Viou admitted to doing was trading goods previously "stolen" (or obtained by dubious means) in game, which you just said you don't consider stolen?

"Viou: by scammers I mean people who acquired it through highly dubious methods in game (bug abusing, account recovering)"

He said that after he got banned, which is commonly called an excuse.

 

[Rsaccounttrader]

He said that after he got banned, which is commonly called an excuse.

See the edit to my post. He never admitted to getting gold that can legally defined to be "stolen", either in his original post, pardon, ban dispute, or posted outside communications.

If he's telling the truth, I am not sure. I agree he easily could be lying to save his ass. However, if he never admitted to knowingly retrading "stolen" goods, he didnt break any rules in the first place and should not be banned.

 

See the edit to my post. He never admitted to getting gold that can legally defined to be "stolen", either in his original post, pardon, ban dispute, or posted outside communications.

If he's telling the truth, I am not sure. I agree he easily could be lying to save his ass. However, if he never admitted to knowingly retrading "stolen" goods, he didnt break any rules in the first place and should not be banned.

Do you really think we are going to be unbanning someone who has publicly admitted to receiving -- in full knowledge -- stolen property and furthermore offered to sell a guide on how to do exactly this to the general public?

You are dreaming.

The shit people think they can get away with under our nose or in our face, as the case may be, is simply amazing. Really, what do you take us for?

 

[Corey]

Recovering an account that is not yours and taking the gold off it is stealing.

I can't believe I'm even having to explain this to you.

 

[Rsaccounttrader]

Do you really think we are going to be unbanning someone who has publicly admitted to receiving -- in full knowledge -- stolen property and furthermore offered to sell a guide on how to do exactly this to the general public?

I would not expect that of you. I would want that person to remain banned.

I am questioning what is stolen property. I do not think he admitted to receiving stolen property. Furthermore, I do not think his guide was going to encourage or guide the trading of stolen property.

I am not arguing because I firmly believe Viou should be banned. In fact, I am not sure whether I think he should be banned or unbanned yet. I am arguing because I think this decision was made hastily, in a time of emotion, and if it is incorrect, unjustly removed one of the most dedicated and generous members of the community.

 

[Corey]

I would not expect that of you. I would want that person to remain banned.

I am not arguing because I firmly believe Viou should be banned. In fact, I am not sure whether I think he should be banned or unbanned yet. I am arguing because I think this decision was made hastily, in a time of emotion, and if it is incorrect, unjustly removed one of the most dedicated and generous members of the community.

Sythe didn't ban Viou. I'm assuming you're saying the ban was made hastily in a time of emotion because of the threads Sythe recently posted in the spam forum.

So again, Richard didn't ban Viou, so therefore it was not made hastily in a time of emotion for the person who banned him.

 

I would not expect that of you. I would want that person to remain banned.

I am questioning what is stolen property. I do not think he admitted to receiving stolen property. Furthermore, I do not think his guide was going to encourage or guide the trading of stolen property.

I am not arguing because I firmly believe Viou should be banned. In fact, I am not sure whether I think he should be banned or unbanned yet. I am arguing because I think this decision was made hastily, in a time of emotion, and if it is incorrect, unjustly removed one of the most dedicated and generous members of the community.

As corey said, I didn't ban him. And you are addressing me as though an appeal to my sensitivities would change the facts of the case. Receiving stolen property in full knowledge has always been a bannable offence on sythe.org. Publically posting a guide on how to do it is also a bannable offence.

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that everything on sythe.org is immoral by default and therefore there is no difference between legitimately obtained virtual goods and stolen virtual goods. I am here to tell you that there is most certainly a difference, and further there is nothing immoral about trading services with one another. It's a basic expression of your freedom to contract with whomever you choose.

And re: jagex's terms of service / contract with you. If you buy and sell services with other players you may be breaking your contract with Jagex... if Jagex's ToS can be regarded as a contract in the first place. That's your choice, your issue to deal with. I would point out that you never signed anything, and that trading services with other members does not lead to any damages to/against Jagex. In other words even if they had legal injury as a result of you trading freely with a third party (very unlikely) then they would still lack any damages. Legally then, it's not an issue (legal injury: maybe, damages: none). Morally it is certainly not an issue (it is not a violation of the non-aggression axiom.)

Further, when you sign up to Runescape, Jagex gives you the right / access to exchange their virtual gold. They put restrictions on this right (according to their contract; which is questionably valid) which involves your intent. That is: if you intend to make a real profit from trading their virtual tokens then they say you cannot do it.

However legally you are allowed to give gold away for free. And legally people are allowed give you real property for free. All gold trades are broken naturally into two pieces anyway, as you cannot have a direct exchange of gold for dollars. That is: It's always a blank trade (i.e. exchange for nothing) in Runescape, followed by a blank trade in real life.

You certainly can have a contract to exchange gifts with another person. So I would hesitate to say you were even breaking your contract with Jagex, if a contract can be said to exist at all.

Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[Emperor Nero]

So receiving gold through dubious means, such as duel arena glitching, isn't considered stolen? So you have to gain direct access to the account or perform a blatant scam to have stolen the gold? I am just trying to get what the definition of stolen here is. You can steal gold a lot of ways.

 

So receiving gold through dubious means, such as duel arena glitching, isn't considered stolen? So you have to gain direct access to the account or perform a blatant scam to have stolen the gold? I am just trying to get what the definition of stolen here is. You can steal gold a lot of ways.

I don't think we've ever considered using in-game mechanics (whether intentionally coded or a bug) as stealing.

 

[S]

So receiving gold through dubious means, such as duel arena glitching, isn't considered stolen? So you have to gain direct access to the account or perform a blatant scam to have stolen the gold? I am just trying to get what the definition of stolen here is. You can steal gold a lot of ways.

Ye, Sythe mentioned on R2P's thread that if the gold was acquired via ingame mechanics, such as staking bugs/pking/glitches then it's fine.

@Sythe, what happens when someone is scammed INGAME for items, and then those items are sold here? Sort of a grey area, as luring is technically considered scamming people for items by some users here.

 

[Heads447]

1 word: Just un dude


Wasn't he orginally banned for selling people duped gold?

 

[Fendle]

1 word: Just un dude


Wasn't he orginally banned for selling people duped gold?

He was banned for lying to staff about selling duped gold.

 

[Heads447]

He was banned for lying to staff about selling duped gold.

The point I'm trying to make is that he was banned originally for selling duped gold. Then later, when he knew he had no chance of getting unbanned, did he lie to staff. Correct me if I'm wrong.