Sting operations and similar situations

[Alteranz]

Unless the trade goes through and actual information or money is exchanged, do not ban members for this.
Some staff are basing these bans upon "intention", but that kind of thing is very hard to judge, and what if the subject is actually trying to do the same thing as this staff member - attempting to source out a bad egg?
I'm not basing this upon current events exactly, as it was taking place during my time as Moderator also, but I'd like to see a stop to it or at least put a whole lot more thought in to it.

I know that many people are on the fence about this, and I'm also aware of the potential "shitstorm" this could raise - Some staff are against, some for... but I'd like to come to an agreement.


To clear things up for people:

In law enforcement, a sting operation is a deceptive operation designed to catch a person committing a crime. A typical sting will have a law-enforcement officer or cooperative member of the public play a role as criminal partner or potential victim and go along with a suspect's actions to gather evidence of the suspect's wrongdoing.

 

[cosrob97]

Could you give me an example? I'd like to see how they judge intention.

 

[Alteranz]

Ehh it will be hard to find an exact situation of what I'm talking about, there's a recent ban that Firez made based on intention - but I'm not doubting his judgement, I'd just like similar situations to be handled better.

http://ww2.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=928507

 

[Kleenex]

It's really hard to judge if he was really trying to find out the guy's username, or just using it as a cover story. There are pros and cons, of course, but I think we should ban people on intention.

 

[Skele]

Ehh it will be hard to find an exact situation of what I'm talking about, there's a recent ban that Firez made based on intention - but I'm not doubting his judgement, I'd just like similar situations to be handled better.

http://ww2.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=928507

That's not much of a sting operation, which I'm not a fan of.

 

[Alteranz]

That's not much of a sting operation, which I'm not a fan of.

Hence the similar situations in the title - basically acts where members/staff go out and try and trick other members in to committing something disallowed on Sythe

To clear things up for people:

In law enforcement, a sting operation is a deceptive operation designed to catch a person committing a crime. A typical sting will have a law-enforcement officer or cooperative member of the public play a role as criminal partner or potential victim and go along with a suspect's actions to gather evidence of the suspect's wrongdoing.

 

[Alteranz]

It's really hard to judge if he was really trying to find out the guy's username, or just using it as a cover story. There are pros and cons, of course, but I think we should ban people on intention.

That's my very point though - how are we to judge intention unless actual steps are made to complete a trade or exchange information?

 

[FireZ]

Ehh it will be hard to find an exact situation of what I'm talking about, there's a recent ban that Firez made based on intention - but I'm not doubting his judgement, I'd just like similar situations to be handled better.

http://ww2.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=928507

Haha as soon as I saw this thread I knew that dispute was coming up.

He has no grounds to dispute on as he was without a doubt buying Sythe accounts, which I've banned 7+ for doing lately.

If he was doing this he should have alerted staff so he wouldn't be framed. Also I'd rather touchy situations like that be avoided for the most part whatsoever.


Also for future reference, feel free to question anything I do, I'll either defend myself or apologize for a mistake.

 

[FireZ]

That's my very point though - how are we to judge intention unless actual steps are made to complete a trade or exchange information?

The only problem with this is that we have no access to knowledge of a trade unless they vouch. I can't read/see their msn convos or pm's so I am left with intention.

I see what you mean but in the case of Buying Sythe.org accounts I pull the trigger.

 

I think that the operations need to be more standardized, but in general they're useful. We've rooted out members bound to scam or have intentions to scam.

 

[Kleenex]

That's my very point though - how are we to judge intention unless actual steps are made to complete a trade or exchange information?

Sorry, I meant we shouldn't.

 

[Magic Arrow]

Thought I'd give you guys a good example of a sting operation.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...spute+wow+is+fun+fun&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

It has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it's me. /shady

 

[Alteranz]

Firez, in no way am I attacking your actions or doubting your ability to make a decision in that specific situation - but I remember one operation numerous months ago that pulled in a heapload of "Sythe Account Sellers" that was carried out by members of staff such as Sindre and jCash; these members bans were based merely upon the idea that if they contacted and spoke to them about it on MSN then they were guilty - this dispute jogged my memory and I remember being rather opposed to the whole idea.

I think that the operations need to be more standardized, but in general they're useful. We've rooted out members bound to scam or have intentions to scam.

No doubt they're useful - but I think a few more careful steps need to be taken

 

[FireZ]

Firez, in no way am I attacking your actions or doubting your ability to make a decision in that specific situation - but I remember one operation numerous months ago that pulled in a heapload of "Sythe Account Sellers" that was carried out by members of staff such as Sindre and jCash; these members bans were based merely upon the idea that if they contacted and spoke to them about it on MSN then they were guilty - this dispute jogged my memory and I remember being rather opposed to the whole idea.

Np Man. :noworry:

If they initiate the buying/selling or whatever else then trigger pulling is a 100% go.

I definitely do not support going around like jcash and Sindre did at all. I will never take part in that type of crap.

 

[The Chase]

uh, have you ever heard of entrapment..? (sp?)

 

[SuF]

Staff have stung staff account buys a ton. People always are like, HEY I WAS JUST MESSING AROUND WITH THEM. I WASN'T PLANNING ON SELLING MY ACCOUNT. It doesn't work unless the person goes through with the trade.

 

[i noob killer i]

To me Its a bit like lureing And Its a form of scamming in my opinion .

 

[Magic Arrow]

Basically, if staff were to do stings, or for any person to do it for that matter, they'd have to outline the rules for the sting before it happens. Basically, let's say I was feigning interest in buying Sythe accounts. I'd get an outline without gaps as to what the punishment will be. For example, if the user, even if he's joking, accepts your offer, he'll be banned.

So let's say.
Me:
Hey, wanna sell your account?
Guy:
Sure lol

He gets banned, even if he's joking, because we can't be sure whether he is or isn't. That way if they come and say "I was joking" then you guys can just say that unless he proves it to the extent of no doubt which is pretty much impossible, he will remain banned.

ya'dig?

 

Some people only own up to things when they get caught. Others genuinely are trying to catch out people that are buying/selling accounts. It's a tough call to make, but I do agree that banning people based on suspicion may be a step too far.

 

[cosrob97]

Basically, if staff were to do stings, or for any person to do it for that matter, they'd have to outline the rules for the sting before it happens. Basically, let's say I was feigning interest in buying Sythe accounts. I'd get an outline without gaps as to what the punishment will be. For example, if the user, even if he's joking, accepts your offer, he'll be banned.

So let's say.
Me:
Hey, wanna sell your account?
Guy:
Sure lol

He gets banned, even if he's joking, because we can't be sure whether he is or isn't. That way if they come and say "I was joking" then you guys can just say that unless he proves it to the extent of no doubt which is pretty much impossible, he will remain banned.

ya'dig?

That's me all over. I would say

Me: How much
Guy: $500
Me: U first or Dorito has OMM
Guy: I'll go first
Me: Send it to [email protected]


Now if he takes a picture before the 'U first or Dorito as mm' I would most likely be banned. So I guess it can go either way.