Snorlax Resolved

[Daveyhuijben]

Scammer's profile link:
Snorlax

Amount scammed: First his worker scammed by emptying my ironman bank. Then he got my account banned for macroing.

Discord ID + Unique Discord ID:
imgur.com
https://i.imgur.com/H0T71dk.gif

Proof that it's their Discord:
imgur.com

Explanation of the trade:
Firstly i was buying 99 runecrafting on a lvl 3 acc i bought from zora.
According to his discord this would take 50 days maximum. This took well over 2 months before i complained with 90 runecrafting and asked him to finish it on my main and gave him another order for tempoross on the ironman.
150$ for 99 runecrafting then 300m 07 for 3000 permits tempoross.

When he told me tempoross was finished the bank from the ironman was cleaned(5k marks of grace loot from 1 - 90 runecrafting and loot from 1 -99 mining ). I was mad pissed and was working with snorlax for a replacement deal.
We came to the conclusion that he would do 90 - 99 runecrafting on the ironman and 1- 87 thieving + get all skilling outfits and 1000 marks of grace. I know bad deal but hey i was trying to be nice.

He started working on this deal the 26th of august! so aswell 2 months ago. Not much progress was made in the beginning and i was getting seriously pissed at the timeframe this guy was taking.
Last week he asked me to change pass fresh worker is gonna do it. And massive gains where coming in in like 2 weeks he did like 5m runecrafting xp or something insane.
Then he is telling me the account got banned for macroing/botting. He tells me its because a vpn and that he wont do anything about it he just wants access back to the account and finish full gracefull + 675 marks and Prospector outfit.
Meanwhile i paid over 10 bonds in total for this to happen.

How they scammed:
Cleaned account / botting infractions / not reasonable timeframe.

Other relevant trade screenshots:
I have an entire conversation with snorlax over 4 months long its impossible to get you all the screenshots necessary but will provide anything on request.

 

I do take 90% reponsibility of what is said above and will respond to each and every point 1 by 1. Just will lead that I have not taken any new orders on my skilling server, nor will I be. I also stopped bumping any threads related to it, and took it out of my footer (all of this was done wayyyy before this report came out)

 

[Daveyhuijben]

As stated above he accepts blame and i would like to suggest the following amount of compensation :

Since the acc now hase a botting infraction and the bank is like 1/5th of the value it was before i started this order.

And the fact i still owe 675 marks of grace and full gracefull and prospector outfit.

I would like a full compensation off the 800m i payed for all these services.

 

Explanation of the trade:
Firstly i was buying 99 runecrafting on a lvl 3 acc i bought from zora.
According to his discord this would take 50 days maximum. This took well over 2 months before i complained with 90 runecrafting and asked him to finish it on my main and gave him another order for tempoross on the ironman.
150$ for 99 runecrafting then 300m 07 for 3000 permits tempoross.

This is 100% true and both of these orders were completed. I will not for a second avoid the fact that my workers were egregiously slow (I will address this more later).

When he told me tempoross was finished the bank from the ironman was cleaned(5k marks of grace loot from 1 - 90 runecrafting and loot from 1 -99 mining ). I was mad pissed and was working with snorlax for a replacement deal.
We came to the conclusion that he would do 90 - 99 runecrafting on the ironman and 1- 87 thieving + get all skilling outfits and 1000 marks of grace. I know bad deal but hey i was trying to be nice.


When he told me tempoross was finished the bank from the ironman was cleaned(5k marks of grace loot from 1 - 90 runecrafting and loot from 1 -99 mining ). I was mad pissed and was working with snorlax for a replacement deal.

This I do not think at all is true. I've thought about it a while and I really do not know if it was a self scam or not (however there is also no proof either way). The rationale is that prior to service no one knew the bank value of the account, @Daveyhuijben SAYS that I do but there were never any pictures exchanged prior to the starting of the tempross account. The last picture of the RC work was weeks, if I recall correctly, prior to the start of this service and there is no way for me to know what the bank looked like when the account started as Davey never sent any pictures to me. The worker on the account sent a picture of the bank very shortly into the service but tempross is not a boss that requires banking and the worker said nothing had been touched, and completed the service with zero issues. It seems very odd to me that if a worker was going to scam, why would they drop trade this stuff just to end up spending many many hours completing the service?

The only possible scenarios with the people that access to the account:
1) The worker could have drop traded then completed the service to look not guilty (he could get the money from doing the service and from the items)
2) Davey logged in himself and dropped the items to self-scam to get more out of the account. He mentioned he was tired of rs (IDK the reason), and it seemed like I was doing standard acc building to make the acc more valuable to sell. If you clean the account you can easily demand that I get more things to compensate that.

I want to clearly lay out what I think are the two options, but I have not been sent definitive proof of either. I will say that the worker on that account no longer works for me for this reason, but the entire time they were complaining that they did nothing wrong and were mad I had no proof. I did this as a security measure in case that were the reality, but I truly do not know what happened. I always try to take the client side which is why I removed that worker and accepted a lengthy and extensive repayment process for Davey.

He started working on this deal the 26th of august! so aswell 2 months ago. Not much progress was made in the beginning and i was getting seriously pissed at the timeframe this guy was taking.
Last week he asked me to change pass fresh worker is gonna do it. And massive gains where coming in in like 2 weeks he did like 5m runecrafting xp or something insane.

This is also true, I am at the point in my life where my services discord was causing me more headache than anything else in my life. To be fully transparent I sent the following messages (15th of October) to a few people who had open services with me as I was trying to alleviate the stress on myself and my customers and end this discord server. I never sent this to Davey as we already had discussed repayment and were/are currently in that process:


"Hello! I am writing with some important news. Over the last few days and weeks my in-house workers have stopped providing the level and care of service I strive to offer within this server. If you are receiving this message it mean you are one of the services/accounts that has been effected by this. As someone who frequently builds accounts myself I understand the frustration in work not being completed within an accurate time frame (give or take some time for natural delays or expedites). To ensure I no longer am causing unneeded stress within my clients lives I am going to limit, or possibly stop, my offering of services for the foreseeable future. My NUMBER ONE PRIORITY is finishing the accounts that I currently have in my possession in a quick manner or refund the difference between completed work and the agreed upon goal for the account.
My two-three options I am giving my clients are:
1) Continue with my in-house workers, with the understanding that some are not working with the efficiency that I ask for.
2) Allow me to outsource the remainder of the required work for your account to one of my many friends that own reputable (on Sythe) and efficient services discords for OSRS, or other more seasoned workers (independent of Discord servers) and pay for this out of my own pocket.
3) Provide a refund of the difference between the completed work thus far and the agreed upon goal of the account. Please let me know which option you choose so I can let you know appropriate next steps. If there is an option I did not provide that you would prefer please tell me and I'd be more that happy to work with you on your request. As a final note, please understand that this slowing of work was beyond my control. I require daily updates and implement penalties for late work to ensure that the client and myself are on the same page about the progress of the account. Despite me trying to ensure client happiness as much as possible and within my power, this system has failed to incentivize workers to complete work in a timely fashion, despite my requests for updates, more working hours, and more, which effects the clients in a negative manner (hence the message above)."


Then he is telling me the account got banned for macroing/botting. He tells me its because a vpn and that he wont do anything about it he just wants access back to the account and finish full gracefull + 675 marks and Prospector outfit.
Meanwhile i paid over 10 bonds in total for this to happen.

I am not sure what you mean by "I won't do anything about it" I offered to finish the remainder of the stats, items, and upgrades we both agreed on, with the cost out of my pocker for membership. My workers are in countries that require the usage of VPNs. I also have been in the OSRS market long enough to know that VPNs are also the go-to choice for botters to mask their own IPs, so they can run bots until their accs are banned then logon from their home IP and appeal for hacking. I know that my workers do not bot, and it is in every job term I send them that they must agree to. I will also note that in my terms of service it states as rule #1:

1. We are not responsible for Bans/Mutes/Locks We are not responsible for any Bans/Mutes/Locks during or after our services.

How they scammed:
Cleaned account / botting infractions / not reasonable timeframe.

Other relevant trade screenshots:
I have an entire conversation with snorlax over 4 months long its impossible to get you all the screenshots necessary but will provide anything on request.

I FULLY take responsibility for the length of this account. It has been infuriating for me to have to deal with all of this myself. My workers actions and lack of drive makes me look bad and there is only so much I can do to speed them up. I know I am supposed to be the point of contact, but when it gets this hard to motivate those to do the jobs agreed upon its hard to be that go-to for the client. I have tried so so so many times to tell the workers to go faster and the repeat slowness on some accounts drove me to the point of wanting to shut down my server (with this service being one of the main reasons). I understand I need to take responsibility for the actions of my workers, and do apologize to Davey for this ungodly wait which is why I am willing to do the following (per mods/Davey request or acceptance):

1) Finish the order like we agreed on or pay someone else that you are more comfortable with out of pocket
2) Provide you with the late fees from the workers taken from the late completion of this job (I will add the cost from the days of the ban, as well as the days for the remainder of completing the service)
3) Something else that mods tell me to do / Davey asks of me

I will die on a rock saying that I am not sure why the account was banned for botting. My workers 100% do not use bots and I have heard and seen bans from VPN usage before, its literally happened to me (feel free to check twitter to affirm my comments that people @ mods to see if they will get banned for using VPNS since botters do to). While there is no better option for my workers, it is still unfortunate that this has happened to the account and I will try to do remedy it in a fair way for us both. Keep in mind that it was also agreed that I am not liable for ANY bans for this exact reason. False positives happen, and like Davey said, the worker was putting in longer hours to complete the account to avoid further deductions, which to me likely triggered a macroing ban response. Lastly, the ban is temporary and has not been attempted to be quashed yet. Davey should not have logged into the accounts anytime recently so it seems quite simple to appeal for hacking since his local IP has not been on it in a while.

In regard to the time length of things I 100% take responsibility for my workers lack of drive on it. The skills asked of me were slow on a level 3, capping at 30k xp/hr for a skill to 99. Its a grueling process (that they voluntarily took on). This is why I offered to compensate Davey by paying for the extra membership out of my own pocket (which he agreed to)

In regard to the ironman being cleaned, there is just no proof either way. I took action against the worker as a way to side with the client, but I still do not know the person who really did it. We had agreed on a solution to this and I do not think it is fair to bring that up when we already had something else set as repayment for that. I agree that I need to take responsibility for it, but I do not think it should by doubly as the skills and upgradres requested were going to be done in a few days, prior to the ban.

I will end with the fact that there were just a series of very unfortuate events that culminated to this. I have had dozens of other, longer services even, that had no problems at all. While this shines poorly upon my ability to handle my workers, there are just things that are out of my control no matter how much I try, hence why I offered and we agreed on many forms of compensation for the earlier issues with the account. I literally stopped offering services to most importantly alleviate stress upon my clients. As I mentioned prior, I have had many many many accounts built and leveled in the past and it can be frustrating to deal with delays. I wanted to end that for them, and for myself, as it got to be too much burden to carry. I now stick to just selling AHKS with my developer team so I do not cause that potential stress to others.

If there is anything else I need to address or missed please let me know @Davey @Mods

 

As stated above he accepts blame and i would like to suggest the following amount of compensation :

Since the acc now hase a botting infraction and the bank is like 1/5th of the value it was before i started this order.

And the fact i still owe 675 marks of grace and full gracefull and prospector outfit.

I would like a full compensation off the 800m i payed for all these services.

I am happy to come to a consensus about the compensation value however I do not think this is fair given the occurrences.

1) The botting infraction was a false positive that has yet to be appealed (and it seems likely that the ban can be quashed). You also agreed to terms of service that state I am not liable for that.
2) This goes to my earlier point about being on the hook double for stuff that has already been completed. We both amicably agreed upon appropriate repayment amounts and they were nearly done (a few days out). So at this point that was practically finished but then you request full repayment for the services you did with me when they are 95% complete. While the time length is egregious a full refund seems just as so to me, given, once again, we agreed that I would pay for membership and you were okay with it.

Everything I did for the account was to alleviate the prior issues and I have done all of what was asked by you and agreed upon by us both. I would ask to not be on the hook twice (having done 95% of the request and then having to pay ALL of it back) but if the mods believe that is just, so be it.

 

[Daveyhuijben]

The only possible scenarios with the people that access to the account:
1) The worker could have drop traded then completed the service to look not guilty (he could get the money from doing the service and from the items)
2) Davey logged in himself and dropped the items to self-scam to get more out of the account. He mentioned he was tired of rs (IDK the reason), and it seemed like I was doing standard acc building to make the acc more valuable to sell. If you clean the account you can easily demand that I get more things to compensate that.

Whe discussed this part at length. I payed you over 800m (dont know the exact amount at this point in time.) Why would i throw away over 200m worth off supplies on the account wich could have been sold to other ironman with the new group thing for well over 600m and not drop them to my main to get a 200m and potentially risk losing 800m in service costs. This just doesnt add up.

Yes we both agreed upon a replacement for the services done but all in all i started this journey on the 16th of july. You offered to pay the bonds out of pocket when it was already almost finished. Not very fair off you to now say you agree it was to long and you paying for bonds from now on is something you should have offered way before this.

I have been patient with you and reasonable. Even with a squashed ban wich we will see in about 5 or 6 days cause it will take 7 days the value off this account goes down dramasticly i asked zora in this case and he said the price without a ban even if squashed and an account with 0 offenses is roughly 150 - 200$ wich is why i think the full 800m compensation for bonds lowered value off the account and you not completing the service is more then fair. If i add everything up what was lost and ask a worker to get all the stuff back would cost way more then that.

But i agree we can talk about this in length and not see eye to eye so the best we can do is wait for a mod his 2 cents

 

The only possible scenarios with the people that access to the account:
1) The worker could have drop traded then completed the service to look not guilty (he could get the money from doing the service and from the items)
2) Davey logged in himself and dropped the items to self-scam to get more out of the account. He mentioned he was tired of rs (IDK the reason), and it seemed like I was doing standard acc building to make the acc more valuable to sell. If you clean the account you can easily demand that I get more things to compensate that.

Whe discussed this part at length. I payed you over 800m (dont know the exact amount at this point in time.) Why would i throw away over 200m worth off supplies on the account wich could have been sold to other ironman with the new group thing for well over 600m and not drop them to my main to get a 200m and potentially risk losing 800m in service costs. This just doesnt add up.

Yes we both agreed upon a replacement for the services done but all in all i started this journey on the 16th of july. You offered to pay the bonds out of pocket when it was already almost finished. Not very fair off you to now say you agree it was to long and you paying for bonds from now on is something you should have offered way before this.

I have been patient with you and reasonable. Even with a squashed ban wich we will see in about 5 or 6 days cause it will take 7 days the value off this account goes down dramasticly i asked zora in this case and he said the price without a ban even if squashed and an account with 0 offenses is roughly 150 - 200$ wich is why i think the full 800m compensation for bonds lowered value off the account and you not completing the service is more then fair. If i add everything up what was lost and ask a worker to get all the stuff back would cost way more then that.

But i agree we can talk about this in length and not see eye to eye so the best we can do is wait for a mod his 2 cents

We did discuss it at length, and like I mentioned and told you directly, it does not make sense as to why you would drop trade the items. My only idea is that you were not playing RS much, like you told me, and just wanted more money. There is not a direct logical reasoning but that also comes with the fact that there is no proof for the other side too (and believe me I have looked hard). And yes I should have been paying for bonds out of pocket prior, but that was the finalized date I gave the workers and then after that I took it on myself (which I own up to).

The only thing I see that I am directly currently responsible for is the time which was ridiculously long. This is why I offered to give you all the late fees from the finalized date - now + the incurred fees for the finishing of the account, which will total way more than all the bonds you paid for combined.

Like I said prior, I will die on a rock for not knowing why the account was banned. I strongly believe it was not any of our faults and is an unlucky false positive, but the other side of this reality is you agreed to the terms of service that state we are not liable. The only thing I currently view as me being liable for is the timing and completion of the account, which I offered options for.

Going to the point about 800m, that would be a different story if you requested that prior to the completion of 95% of the skills and upgrades we agreed on. It does not seem fair to have done all of that just to re-pay yet again. The work was a substitute for a direct monetary payment (you agreed to this form of repayment) and now you ask for double. (despite this ban not being my fault / terms of service agreed to)

Like I mentioned prior, if a mod sees something I do not I am more than welcome to take on that burden.

I totally believe this is an incredibly tricky situation and will take days for a mod to comment or resolve as there are many sides / acceptances of liability / forms of agreed upon repayment that need to be juggled. I will continue adding on days of late fees to the repayment structure I outlined above for up to 10 days this report sits with no resolution, just as a further way to get you more money back, and take into the account for the bureaucratic lag-time.

 

Also, this seems like a good place to possibly implement a new services rule: stating if the services are for personal or commercial use.

I have seen multiple reports of things similar to this over the past years whether it be related to botting infractions or incorrect levels skilled. Re-payment clearly varies as sometimes the account is being built as usage as a personal account, versus being built to re-sell (get items/stats/ect for). I was NEVER told this was an account that was going to be re-sold, which does not change and would not change what happened, but still offers ambiguity around value.

Example: A 1500 total level main requests a service and a false positive ban like this occurs. What is stopping them from saying they were going to sell it and that now the account is worth less, when the likely reality is it was a personal account that will never face another strike again because clearly they play it manually and the ban (IF it fails to be quashed, will just expire in a year).

If there was a report from this example situation noted above, it seems like its beneficial for the client to lie and state that all accounts are being built to be re-sold to be able to receive the difference in value from the maximum profit, from the current value. Clearly no one hopes this happens, but it seems like there is a clear loophole to require more repayment for errors from service providers. There is nothing stopping me from getting pures built for personal account usage, having the provider accidentally level defense or get a false ban, and me complain I was going to sell the account and therefor it is worth less, when in reality I can continue playing the pure myself, or transform it into any account I want. The client essentially gets away receiving extra money from the report due to the devaluation of the "pure" title when they had no true intentions of selling in the first place and just pocket more money as they can baselessly claim their account was ruined for selling purposes (despite there being no true intention of this). - I use this example as it is not uncommon for pures to transform accounts into Zerks, Meds, or Mains and so a level in defense may just be the fate of the universe sign to do that (which they do not mind), but that that can additionally profit for inside a report.

If you are sitting here saying this is a stupid rule because if the client agrees to a TOS that states the service provider is not liable for a ban or extra level gained, I implore you to provide that same logic in this report specifically regarding the fact that he agreed that I was not liable for the ban and extrapolating this logic out, I should not be liable for the devaluation caused by it (making what Davey said about Zoras valuation [however true it may be] irrelevant to this report's logic as TOS was agreed to that absolves me from false positives like this.

 

Can someone provide the TOS that was provided / agreed on for this order?

 

[Daveyhuijben]

I am not to sure about it tbh the ToS hase been changed multiple times since we started this service

 

Of course, here you go:

Please read and react below to accept the server Tos to become a member!
Terms of Service
1. We are not responsible for Bans/Mutes/Locks We are not responsible for any Bans/Mutes/Locks during or after our services.
2. Limited Refunds Once a payment has been made, refunds are no longer possible. Exceptions may be made, but are up to staff discretion.
3. Leveling, Status, and Rollbacks We are not responsible for any loss of HCIM status or any unwanted levels gained, although we take these requests before a service. Furthermore, we are, not held liable for the rare chance of account progression loss due to a rollback by Jagex.
4. Passwords You are required to change your password after your order is done to ensure your account safety.
5. No Advertising Includes DM Advertising. No advertising any other RS related discords.
6. Payment is Required Upfront All payments must be made prior to the service. We take OSRS Gp and Crypto (Coinbase).
7. Agreement to Terms of Service By submitting a ticket you are agreeing to our terms of service. All orders must be placed by submitting a ticket in the appropriate channel.
8. Rule Breaking is Prohibited You accept that breaking any rules will result in termination of service and loss of payment.
9. You agree to not log into your account during the duration of the service You will not login unless given express permission, due to safety reasons. Breaking this rule can terminate the service.

 

[Daveyhuijben]

Please state the date u added these terms mister.

According to your discord its 12-10-2022 i ordered on 05-07-2022

Wanna get technical ? Where did i say i agree to your terms mate ?

 

I am not to sure about it tbh the ToS hase been changed multiple times since we started this service

100% true! The TOS have been edited twice since the start of this service, I can provide screenshots with Titanite who runs my discord bot in charge of spitting out the TOS.

The changes:

10/12: Rewording of rule 2 to state: 2. Limited Refunds Once a payment has been made, refunds are no longer possible. Exceptions may be made, but are up to staff discretion.

7/14: #titanite | Snorlax Skilling - Discord (gyazo.com) - This is simply moving my prior bot, to a custom bot from titanite. The TOS he mentions are the currents ones at that time (and prior) and the only change was adding rule #9 which you can see from the screenshot

 

Please state the date u added these terms mister.

According to your discord its 12-10-2022 i ordered on 05-07-2022

Wanna get technical ? Where did i say i agree to your terms mate ?

Where you accepted the terms to enter my server which state you accept the server TOS
You can see this at the top line of screenshot of the image with Titanite

 

[Daveyhuijben]

You do not need to react with anything to get acess to the server pirate can try it for himself

 

Where you accepted the terms to enter my server which state you accept the server TOS
You can see this at the top line of screenshot of the image with Titanite

You can also look at rule 7, which you agreed to as well.

 

You do not need to react with anything to get acess to the server pirate can try it for himself

That is not true, anyone (and of course Pirate) is more than welcome to check 300$ Donor 250+ Vouches Cheapest Prices FASTEST Hand-Done INSANE DEALS 99s for $30 | Sell & Trade Game Items | OSRS Gold | ELO (sythe.org) (I do not bump this thread as I am not taking orders)

 

[Daveyhuijben]

imgur.com

show me ? no emote to react to

 

[Daveyhuijben]

But lets not get ahead off the point why we are here. Imo if i pay someone to do services and they get banned during a service they cant just add that to the ToS if i pay them for legit gameplay and they get it banned for botting. Seems fishy.

I will wait for pirate to respond and act accordingly

 

imgur.com

show me ? no emote to react to

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/955905339541303296/1037731106583232553/IMG_3667.png

On mobile but can clarify when I am on pc- there is a hidden channel that no members can see. Only those who lack the member role can (ie people who just join) they need to press that button to accept tos. This is completely standard for anyone who owns an osrs services discord. Prior to titanite I had it set up with Carlbot I belive and you pressed an emoji to enter the server. The image you referenced is the verbaitm exact tos that newcomers see as a reminder to what they have already accepted