Sectionals should be able to perm ban

[Tyro]

Unless the system has changed recently, I'm speaking from extensive experience.

This is how sectionals deal with scammers under the current system:

• Sectional reviews scam reports
• Sectional temporarily bans the person (a temp ban is just a seven-point infraction, effectively banning the person for a week)
• Sectional posts the person's name in the "request a ban" thread in the staff lounge, along with the reason the person should be perm banned
• Global perm bans the person (they're not required to review the report; it's very rare for a sectional to misinterpret a scam report anyway)
• Global deletes sectional's post in "request a ban"

Benefits of allowing sectionals to perm ban:

• We won't run into problems like scammers being unbanned if globals don't deal with the "request a ban" thread promptly and correctly (this has happened multiple times)
• Globals wouldn't have to deal with the "request a ban" thread
• It would make scam reports faster, thus making the market safer and giving mods more time to clean up the site
• Sectionals will be more motivated to deal with reports
• If a sectional makes a mistake, it's easier to reverse a perm ban than a temp ban (seriously)
• It removes useless bureaucracy
• It makes the system less vulnerable to bottlenecks -- sometimes there are only four globals and three are on vacation

Let me know what you think. Feel free to raise concerns, but please don't dismiss the idea because "it's fine the way it is;" that's only relevant for changes that are difficult to implement. This is a simple change with good yields.

 

I have dealt with scammers that got unbanned waiting for a perm way too often!
However, I don't like the fact how every sectional can perm-ban anyone they see fit, surely we do not want another Finn situation.

I support, if there is a way to double-check these sectional-issued permanent bans.

 

[Grrr]

I'd have to say this idea can only be advantageous in my opinion, if sectionals already have the power to bestow bans, even non permanent ones, then it couldn't hurt to allow them the power to permanently ban individuals?

I imagine that when moderators are picked they are vigorously screened and background checked. The admins wouldn't allow someone the position if they didn't believe them to be a worthy candidate, so I don't see why giving them this extra power would be an issue.

However my only concern would be that maybe this is deliberate, in order to delegate more power to higher members of staff because they have proved themselves?

 

[Tyro]

I have dealt with scammers that got unbanned waiting for a perm way too often!
However, I don't like the fact how every sectional can perm-ban anyone they see fit, surely we do not want another Finn situation.

I support, if there is a way to double-check these sectional-issued permanent bans.

Right, it's good that you brought up that concern. There are already safeguards against that. Banned users can dispute, moderator actions are logged, etc. Allowing sectionals to perm wouldn't give a rogue any more power than they already have. It's easier to remove a perm ban than a temporary ban anyway.

Edit: Allowing sectionals to perm would actually increase accountability. (If sectional Tyro requests a ban from global Skele, the system thinks that Skele banned the person rather than Tyro.)

 

[Tyro]

I'd have to say this idea can only be advantageous in my opinion, if sectionals already have the power to bestow bans, even non permanent ones, then it couldn't hurt to allow them the power to permanently ban individuals?

I imagine that when moderators are picked they are vigorously screened and background checked. The admins wouldn't allow someone the position if they didn't believe them to be a worthy candidate, so I don't see why giving them this extra power would be an issue.

However my only concern would be that maybe this is deliberate, in order to delegate more power to higher members of staff because they have proved themselves?

Interesting thought. Perm bans wouldn't really give sectionals any more potential to misuse power. Globals' power doesn't really reside in perm bans anyway -- the only important difference between sectionals and globals is globals' responsibility to manage the staff (through voting) and other specialized tasks (complex investigations, etc).

 

Right, it's good that you brought up that concern. There are already safeguards against that. Banned users can dispute, moderator actions are logged, etc. Allowing sectionals to perm wouldn't give a rogue any more power than they already have. It's easier to remove a perm ban than a temporary ban anyway.

Edit: Allowing sectionals to perm would actually increase accountability. (If sectional Tyro requests a ban from global Skele, the system thinks that Skele banned the person rather than Tyro.)

Banned users being able to dispute will not prevent unwarranted bans that may occur.
I'd rather see a system put into place that prevents any unwarranted permanent bans than one that can revert them after the banned user disputes.

For instance, changing the maximum temporary ban from 7 days to one month should be enough for a global to get to it, even when shorthanded for whatever reason.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I like the idea! I'm just afraid of it being abused seeing as not a lot of (if any) background research is going on prior to making a user a sectional moderator.
For instance, Add_My_Msn who turned out to have several banned accounts on his IP adress. There are plenty of other mods that can be named but this really just shows how sometimes no research is done at all, no one even checked his IP adress for previous Sythe accounts.

 

[Grrr]

Interesting thought. Perm bans wouldn't really give sectionals any more potential to misuse power. Globals' power doesn't really reside in perm bans anyway -- the only important difference between sectionals and globals is globals' responsibility to manage the staff (through voting) and other specialized tasks (complex investigations).

Yeah, I agree they already have the power to ban people even if it's only a temporary one, the issue of power misuse could be used either way regardless of whether the ban is a permanent one or temporary.

I'm totally with you on this one Tyro, seems to me like it's just an unnecessary step which could be taken out and if anything were to go wrong and individuals are banned incorrectly there are many avenues for them to rectify the situation.

In my opinion I'd prefer someone got wrongly banned and the situation was fixed quickly than someone who deserves to be banned just left to their devices by accident. It may be a bit of a utilitarian view, but I believe it would benefit the wider community in the long run.

 

[Tyro]

Banned users being able to dispute will not prevent unwarranted bans that may occur.

Perm bans wouldn't worsen the situation.
By the way, disputes do prevent unwarranted bans. If a moderator bans people incorrectly too often, they're demoted. People being able to dispute prevents such abuse.

I'd rather see a system put into place that prevents any unwarranted permanent bans than one that can revert them after the banned user disputes.

Could you clarify, that sounds sort of magic.

For instance, changing the maximum temporary ban from 7 days to one month should be enough for a global to get to it, even when shorthanded for whatever reason.

But why should the global even review them at that point? I'm trying to reduce unnecessary work.

 

[Tyro]

Banned users being able to dispute will not prevent unwarranted bans that may occur.
I'd rather see a system put into place that prevents any unwarranted permanent bans than one that can revert them after the banned user disputes.

For instance, changing the maximum temporary ban from 7 days to one month should be enough for a global to get to it, even when shorthanded for whatever reason.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I like the idea! I'm just afraid of it being abused seeing as not a lot of (if any) background research is going on prior to making a user a sectional moderator.
For instance, Add_My_Msn who turned out to have several banned accounts on his IP adress. There are plenty of other mods that can be named but this really just shows how sometimes no research is done at all, no one even checked his IP adress for previous Sythe accounts.

I'm just wondering if you can think of any way that this could be abused. Sectionals can already ban people. If they wanted to scam someone and ban them, they'd just... do it. There are already a thousand safeguards against corrupt moderators. It wouldn't go unnoticed.

For the record, when I was on staff, people were thoroughly vetted. I spent hours investigating every single candidate before promotion with a lot of help from Skele. Before me, Sin was the one vetting them them. I don't recognize the name, but I can't imagine that the current globals, some of whom I've known for years, would be careless. There's a good chance the evidence didn't exist before the person was promoted. But again, I'm asserting that this won't give sectionals any more potentially abusive power, so it's not really relevant to the suggestion.
Edit: While I'm on the subject, I'll just throw in some random advice for any wandering admin. When I was an admin I'd post the names of potential promotions in the sectional lounge so that sectionals would have a chance to investigate after globals have had their say. This is good for avoiding bad promotions and training mods.

 

Perm bans wouldn't worsen the situation.
By the way, disputes do prevent unwarranted bans. If a moderator bans people incorrectly too often, they're demoted. People being able to dispute prevents such abuse.

It would only prevent them from being permanent, at this time the damage has been dealt. A user has been banned without proper cause.

Could you clarify, that sounds sort of magic.

I suppose you are right on this, I can not imagine a system preventing any unwarranted bans if this is put into place. Any suggestions on this would be great.

But why should the global even review them at that point? I'm trying to reduce unnecessary work.

I don't understand what you mean with "at that point" as all you're doing is making sure the temporary ban does not run out prior to it becoming permanent.
If a global permed the requested user he will, like you said, remove the user from the list.
If the user has not been removed from the list, no matter when, it will need reviewing, if the user has not been banned yet or the global forgot to remove the post alike.

 

[Tyro]

It would only prevent them from being permanent, at this time the damage has been dealt. A user has been banned without proper cause.

Ah okay. I think you're just having difficulty because of the word "permanent." Permanent bans aren't really permanent; they're indefinite. The only way an unjust indefinite ban would remain in place (barring upper staff corruption) is if the person didn't bother to dispute it.

The dispute forum already keeps sectionals cautious about dishing out punishment. If a sectional does their job badly, people dispute and the moderator is removed. It's that simple. Bear in mind, sectionals can't edit disputes.

 

[SuF]

Not going to happen. It would open up channels for abuse and possibilities of making mistakes. Globals handle the bans basically within a day now. I haven't seen a request that is more than a day old for months. There is also already plenty of motivation to deal with the reports.

I don't want to be "that guy" that just closes stuff but I know for a fact this will never happen. I don't want to get into every detail about your points in public, so I'm not going to. Sorry.

 

[djweasel]

I agree with Suf here, because now these people are perm'd in a day now so we don't need it. If we did allow sectionals to perm there would be no reason to have a global level.