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Question for Atheists

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Shredderbeam said:
Vonnegut?
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The author? I don't know what you mean.


Anyway.... I found some quotes by Einstein over religion, thought they were kinda neat.

Einstein said:
"Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous"

"I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

"Physical concepts are free creations of the human mind, and are not, however it may seem, uniquely determined by the external world. In our endeavor to understand reality we are somewhat like a man trying to understand the mechanism of a closed watch. He sees the face and the moving hands, even hears its ticking, but he has no way of opening the case. If he is ingenious he may form some picture of a mechanism which could be responsible for all the things he observes, but he may never be quite sure his picture is the only one which could explain his observations. He will never be able to compare his picture with the real mechanism and he cannot even imagine the possibility or the meaning of such a comparison."

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.
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I'm rather spiritual these days, I always used to remain agnostic, admitting to my ignorance rather than trying to look like a fool trying to prove or disprove anything, but at this point in my life I have had way too much weird ass shit happen to me that can no longer be explained by any rational logic, and I believe I will remain permanently convinced that there is at least some greater force at work, even if it is only my mind.

To me, I see God everywhere, in you and me and this computer and the trees outside. It is merely an abstract concept to describe the universe, which is pulsating with life all the time. Beyond that I have know clue how things work in the greater scheme of things, but I will remain faithful all the same.
 
Ughster said:
To me, I see God everywhere, in you and me and this computer and the trees outside. It is merely an abstract concept to describe the universe, which is pulsating with life all the time. Beyond that I have know clue how things work in the greater scheme of things, but I will remain faithful all the same.
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Hmm, that's seems to be along the lines of a diest.

By the way, I like your quotes. My turn...

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use."
-- Galileo Galilei
 
jebckr said:
Hmm, that's seems to be along the lines of a diest.
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There are a lot of "religions" that loosely fit with that concept. Pantheism works as well, though I'm of the opinion that most religions originate from people making this realization, and most of them have just been corrupted and misinterpreted over time.

I didn't come to this conclusion by reading anything, it was simply revealed to me (though I won't bore you with the details of how it happened)... so I try not to associate myself with any religion, most of them serve as much evil as they do good, if not more.
 
How about that you show us REAL evidence that god really exist ? And i am not talking about a crappy old book.

I'am a Christian, But during my life i have seen so much people suffer , and then i ask myself a question : "Where is god now ?"
 
TheMasterpiece said:
How about that you show us REAL evidence that god really exist ? And i am not talking about a crappy old book.

I'am a Christian, But during my life i have seen so much people suffer , and then i ask myself a question : "Where is god now ?"
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Oh, but God works in mysterious ways. Those who suffer are being punished or it is just his will. Etc, etc, etc.

Ha, no it seems to me that it is just the way the world works. Probability is no miracle and blasphamy is no sin. I recomend this video to answer any question you have on the subject of God showing himself or not, through prayer, etc.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI&feature=related
 
Suffering is necessary, Good and evil maintain a codependent relationship, you can't have one without the other. Just like most things in this world.

Jeb, something interesting about prayer. It really comes back to the way the human mind works.... if someone approaches something convinced in it's power, they will more likely see results than someone who approaches something convinced in it's flaws.

There have been plenty of studies done which have actually proved prayer works, likewise there have been plenty of studies done which prove prayer doesn't work.... the difference? The people involved. Most of the successful studies involved people who truly believed in the power of prayer, while most of the unsuccessful studies involved people seeking to disprove the power of prayer. This concept holds true to several things. It all has to do with perception.

For the record, I don't pray, nor am I a Christian.
 
I'd like to see some of the studies that show that prayer works, other than the pregnancy one where the coordinator of the study had a history of faking results.
 
I didn't look hard, but heres some links.

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/meta-study-finds-god-answers-prayers-12790.html

http://elder-abuse-cyberray.********.com/2008/02/science-proves-prayer-works.html

http://www.proofgodexists.org/scientific_study_of_prayer_under.htm

Ok.. that second link is blocked out, I don't know why.. w/e.



There was one I read a long time ago, I wish I could find it... some lady was doing a study on prayer with patients for a rare form of brain cancer, her studies showed it worked then she ended up getting the same kind of brain cancer and dying. Kinda ironic.

But yea, if you look hard enough you can find plenty of studies that "prove" it, though I will admit they are at a disadvantage here since most people involved in doing scientific studies are more likely to have scientific agendas, rather than religious.... which goes back to what I said before, the results on controversial studies like this will all depend on the agendas of the people involved.

I personally do not believe in prayer, but I do believe that intense concentration on things can effect them, which is often what prayer is.
 
jebckr said:
Oh, but God works in mysterious ways. Those who suffer are being punished or it is just his will. Etc, etc, etc.

Ha, no it seems to me that it is just the way the world works. Probability is no miracle and blasphamy is no sin. I recomend this video to answer any question you have on the subject of God showing himself or not, through prayer, etc.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI&feature=related
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I watched all of that video, it just shows how stupid god beleivers are. they should atleast think about this instead of denying without any thought.
 
Regarding studies that prayer works, or intense thought or whathave you. I've seen quite I few proving prayer or a positive aditude or whatever have no effect at all.

Basically, the smaller your subject group, the greater the differentiary could be from the average. This, I realize is obvious. Still, my point is that it is all math. When a child with a rare disease has a 1% chance to live and is prayed for and lives it is not a miracle. I can promise you if the doctors are accurate on their estimates 99 other kids in the same situation (prayer or no prayer) DIED.

To me, a test saying it has proved prayer works is like a test proving blacks to be the smartest race on earth. Take a small enough or biased enough test sample, and you'll get what you want.
 
I really am going to have to take sides with Ughster once again. Because you see, God is not a universally believed figure. He is the god of the ones who believe in him. Atheists are not God haters or anything of the sort. They simply believe that there is no higher power than science and the realm of reality. The belief of God is the belief of those who choose to believe in him. You should not try to take away this faith becase faith is what keeps some people alive. Faith keeps most people happy. Finally, faith is what keeps humanity balanced. Without faith, where would you be today. You woldn't believe in yourself, or whatever you believe in.

So don't try to take away that belief of God. Let those who cherish him do so, and live their lives in peace.
 
I agree completly with easter bunny, i love your outlook on this topic.
 
Word easter bunny, people were completely missing the point of my post. I was not trying to convince any of you atheists that prayer is real, I was simply trying to show you all that people have different view points and none of them are entirely right or entirely wrong.

I'm going to quote my old post one more time for emphesis:

Ughster said:
Most legitimate believers already have all the proof they need, otherwise they wouldn't believe it. It comes from their own experience. You do not have the benefit of their experience to draw your own conclusions from the evidence, as you are limited to your own single perspective. So you utilize your own perspective of logic and analysis and are unable to find what they have found, so in your perception, it becomes false.

IMO, both parties are not entirely right and not entirely wrong, they just share different perspective on things, and both try to force their perspectives on others... so it goes, and here I am participating in the perspective cycle, sharing my own perspective. Fun times.
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I think if we were all able to respect each other's perspectives and collaborate together in an open minded manner, instead of just trying to prove the other people wrong, we would accomplish a lot more. Humans are too stubborn for this classical debate to go anywhere productive, it just turns into an ego battle of who is better.
 
Ughster said:
I didn't look hard, but heres some links.

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/meta-study-finds-god-answers-prayers-12790.html

http://elder-abuse-cyberray.********.com/2008/02/science-proves-prayer-works.html

http://www.proofgodexists.org/scientific_study_of_prayer_under.htm

Ok.. that second link is blocked out, I don't know why.. w/e.



There was one I read a long time ago, I wish I could find it... some lady was doing a study on prayer with patients for a rare form of brain cancer, her studies showed it worked then she ended up getting the same kind of brain cancer and dying. Kinda ironic.

But yea, if you look hard enough you can find plenty of studies that "prove" it, though I will admit they are at a disadvantage here since most people involved in doing scientific studies are more likely to have scientific agendas, rather than religious.... which goes back to what I said before, the results on controversial studies like this will all depend on the agendas of the people involved.

I personally do not believe in prayer, but I do believe that intense concentration on things can effect them, which is often what prayer is.
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Well, it seems that the studies that prove prayer's power tend to center on the individual, where the mind-body effect might account for it.
 
Which is exactly what I've been saying. If you believe in prayer then it's got a much greater chance of working.
 
Right, but if the mind-body effect is to blame, then it wouldn't work when praying for others. It also wouldn't be really prayer.
 
s, but see prayer is for the benefit of the praying. When the person praying believes that the receiver of the prayer will be better, they are happier. So, prayer is not for the receiver, it is for the benefit of the giver.
 
Then it is probably attributable entirely to the mind-body effect, and not towards any sort of spiritual cause.
 
But now we are back on God, the people who pray will BELIEVE that the cause of the good event they prayed for...is God. So yes, the mind-body effect does take a toll on the persons belief and spirituality. But also, their mentality is faced toward God is the creator of good and evil.

So in a way your right, their mentality faces towards happiness. But you also have to see, the DO believe in something more powerful, and think that he is watching over them.
 
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