• Log in or sign up for an account here: https://www.sythe.org/login

Do you support taxation?

Supporting Business
Discord Voice
Poképedia
Who did this to my freakin' car!
Dat Boi
Dolan Duck
Dolan Trump
I'm LAAAAAAAME
Live Free or Die
Mew
Mewtwo
Poké Prizebox
Rust Player
Sythe Awards 2016 Winner
Sythe Awards 2017 Winner
Sythe Awards 2019 Winner
Tier 3 Prizebox
Toast Wallet User
Also I don't accept your premise that tax is theft. You say-
"Theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

"Taxation is the legal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

The term legal makes them different concepts. Regardless of your stance on the legitimacy of the courts, they have power over you and hence you are subject to their "whims" and definitions.

It's theft because consent is not freely given.

Allow me to elaborate by analogy.

Rape is non-consensual sex.

If rape is condoned by the "law" of a society, its fundamental character does not change. That it is non-consensual is its defining characteristic; that is what sets it apart from ordinary sex, which is consensual.

Theft is non-consensual property transfer.
 
Tier 1 Prizebox
Also I don't accept your premise that tax is theft. You say-
"Theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

"Taxation is the legal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

The term legal makes them different concepts. Regardless of your stance on the legitimacy of the courts, they have power over you and hence you are subject to their "whims" and definitions.

Therefore, without the word legal, tax is theft. If you do not give consent, it is theft.
Therefore, I agree with Sythe on this one.
 
No, for the plain reason that it's theft. And just to argue against that it falls under a government's jurisdiction as given in the social contract:

Because the government will initiate force against anyone who does not wish to "comply with" the contract, you can't accept it as justification for an action like taxation. So because this agreement is not voluntary, you can't consider the contract or the actions it's trying to justify as legitimate at all.
 
Also I don't accept your premise that tax is theft. You say-
"Theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

"Taxation is the legal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent."

The term legal makes them different concepts. Regardless of your stance on the legitimacy of the courts, they have power over you and hence you are subject to their "whims" and definitions.

Not true. It's still theft, just theft that the government approves of and enforces.

Taxation is not much different than robbery.

If you don't hand over your money to the government[thieves] then the government[thieves] will punish you[victim] for not complying with their orders.
 
I won't even address the fact you think its ok for any majority to rape any minority, except to point out that you have now justified (under your code) the holocaust, slavery, stonnings, state religion, conscription, communism, state organ harvesting, cannibalism, and pretty much Pandora's entire box of evils.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_mercatoria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Law is not a function of government. Yes it has been nationalized by criminal syndicates called "the government", but it is no more their domain than drugs are the domain of the mafia

I personally don't support rape, I'm saying if one wishes to rape another, Then really the only thing stopping them from doing so is themselves.

Although I find your point that law is not a function of the government valid they do pay the 'Police' to uphold and enforce the law which we come to abide and follow.
Who shall enforce the laws if not the police?

If everyone took the law into their own hands gangs and large family's would pillage and rape the smaller households for their wealth, Would that be a better world/society.

Cause we know these things happen in such countries, similar to these conditions.
 
Supporting Business
Discord Voice
Poképedia
Who did this to my freakin' car!
Dat Boi
Dolan Duck
Dolan Trump
I'm LAAAAAAAME
Live Free or Die
Mew
Mewtwo
Poké Prizebox
Rust Player
Sythe Awards 2016 Winner
Sythe Awards 2017 Winner
Sythe Awards 2019 Winner
Tier 3 Prizebox
Toast Wallet User
Who shall enforce the laws if not the police?

There are a number of ways to answer this.

Firstly the position you are arguing from is a very weak one. Who determines that there ought to be a group of people called "the police"? The "governers". And who determines that there ought to be "governers"? A piece of paper called a "constitution" which is a legally invalid document (i.e. it is not a contract or other form of agreement, and does not establish any facts -- would not even be admissible as evidence in an unfamiliar court. If you don't believe me, draft a constitution for your own house based on the US constitution and try to present it as evidence in *any* court which applies common law rules of evidence.)

So already you're starting with the problem of "who picks the police", "who picks the people who pick the police" and "who picks the 'laws' the police to should enforce?" And your answer to all three is inevitably some subgroup (or, more commonly, special interest group) from the community.

Now, to address the argument proper, we may take a look at the real law -- that is: the common law. Common law or case law is the law discovered and inferred by judges; who are professionals who specialize in adjudication and research in the science of politics [philosophic sense of the term]. Judges today mostly hold "government" jobs, but there are numerous instances of private judges who are as good or better than "government" judges. (Judge Judy is a popular example.)

At common law, the police have no special powers. That is, anyone may grab a malefactor and bring him before a court and have him charged. All human beings may act as "the police", and this, if you think about it, is what you would wish people still did today, because there are a lot more honest people walking around in an everyday crowd than there are honest police.

To read about the history of common law arrest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest

So the answer, quite simply, is you.

As a side note, what we are doing here, in debating the law, and effectively differentiating social (lawful) behaviour from anti-social (unlawful) behaviour, is a part of this same "citizens arrest" process.

If everyone took the law into their own hands gangs and large family's would pillage and rape the smaller households for their wealth, Would that be a better world/society.
I'm glad you brought this up; I was about to elaborate on it anyway.

It is true that most people are ignorant of philosophy, and therefore ignorant of what the law ought to be in order that it be just. To remedy this we already have, under the division of labour, a number of professional classes of person: law scholars (researchers) and law adjudicators (practitioners). They are today called: barrister, solicitor, accountant and judge. These professional classes are not different conceptually to say medicine, wherein you have medical scholars (researchers) and medical practitioners (doctors).

Returning to our first point above we find that our only remaining problem with people taking "the law into their own hands" is that these people are ignorant of the law. So why not have them bring the situation before an expert in the law? Today the answer is simple: like all "government" services, the courts are inefficient and wasteful, and won't even service the general public, but in a free society this would not be the case, and you would no more expect a queue to see a judge than you would expect a queue to buy a box of chocolates.


Cause we know these things happen in such countries, similar to these conditions.
You're going to have to be specific. Every "country" has its specific problems, and broad generalizations (particularly in terms of how "free" such and such a place is) are almost always completely incorrect.

In fact I want to see evidence when you post your specific cases.
 
If i support the idea of taxtation, why must i pay for your taxes too?

I support the idea of taxtation, which means i support the idea that EVERYONE in the country will pay X amount of dollars based on their income to build public infrastructure for everybody, so why must i pay for your taxes?
 
This is unbelievable. Are you so thickheaded that when your garbage starts piling up it would not occur to you to pick up the god damn telephone and call a private garbage collection agency to come take your trash away?
God help you if your toilets ever back up; You'll just let the bathroom flood with sewage until the plumbing industry is nationalized...
Who provides services? People provide services.
Again with the insults and such. First off I was answering a question which I tried to pose to you, which you in turn ignored. Secondly I’m not taking a stance, let along disagreeing with you. Cool your jets son, your only serving to promote contempt and emotions in the debate, both of which are unnecessary.

You failed to understand my point however so I’ll outline it carefully. Make sure to read the whole statement and not just the first line however else you may accidently waste some more time typing up an irrelevant paragraph. The whole jist of my posts was to try and look at what would happen under a non government system when the individual is unable to pay for a service. Let’s just examine garbage collection for the sake of this. Under the current local government system I pay a levy to the local council every quarter and one of the services they provide is garbage collection. If for some reason I don’t pay this levy the council will not stop the garbage collection service, else garbage will pile up on the streets, but rather try to acquire this money from me through the courts.

Under a private system I would have any such obligation to pay for a garbage collection service, and the private garbage service would have no obligation to collect the garbage of someone who hasn’t paid for their service. As such if I was unable to afford the service one month they would simply stop collecting my garbage. The solution you proposed for this was to pick up the phone and call for a different private collection service- but what kind of solution is that. If the individual cannot pay for one service a different service won’t come and pick up the rubbish free of charge.
So effectively you're saying that unless X, Y and Z are enslaved to provide these services to you free of charge, you are being intentionally harmed!!!
So I guess you are in support of slavery too?

No I’m not a supporter of slavery, neither am I a supporter of jumping to conclusions. I was in fact looking at the opposite of slavery, at the customer provider relationship whereby the customer pays for a service which the provider provides. When the customer is no longer able to afford the service, the provider takes said service away. Doesn’t sound like slavery eh?

It's theft because consent is not freely given.
Allow me to elaborate by analogy.
Rape is non-consensual sex.
If rape is condoned by the "law" of a society, its fundamental character does not change. That it is non-consensual is its defining characteristic; that is what sets it apart from ordinary sex, which is consensual.
Theft is non-consensual property transfer.

Ok so for sex to not be considered rape under the law, consent must be freely given. If consent is not given, it is considered rape. That’s all well and good but that analogy’s links to taxation are tedious at best as the same law that differs between sex and rape through the consideration of consent states that taxation requires no such consent. As such while tax may be compared with theft, and may be considered similar by the cynics out there, they are mutually exclusive concepts; one is the acquisition of assets without consent the other is simply regarded by the law as the acquisition of assets to fund (______).
 
Supporting Business
Discord Voice
Poképedia
Who did this to my freakin' car!
Dat Boi
Dolan Duck
Dolan Trump
I'm LAAAAAAAME
Live Free or Die
Mew
Mewtwo
Poké Prizebox
Rust Player
Sythe Awards 2016 Winner
Sythe Awards 2017 Winner
Sythe Awards 2019 Winner
Tier 3 Prizebox
Toast Wallet User
unable to pay for a service. Let’s just examine garbage collection for the sake of this. Under the current local government system I pay a levy to the local council every quarter and one of the services they provide is garbage collection. If for some reason I don’t pay this levy the council will not stop the garbage collection service, else garbage will pile up on the streets, but rather try to acquire this money from me through the courts.

In most places, currently, if you don't pay you will be evicted from the land.

If the individual cannot pay for one service a different service won’t come and pick up the rubbish free of charge.
Correct. Although, if he cannot afford garbage collection, then I'm unsure how he could afford groceries (which typically constitute 95% of garbage) in the first place.

they are mutually exclusive concepts; one is the acquisition of assets without consent the other is simply regarded by the law as the acquisition of assets to fund (______).
Your argument is a fallacy. Depending on which way it is taken it is one of the following:

An appeal to force (Argumentum ad baculum), if you are claiming that taxation is different to theft because "the police" back it.

An appeal to authority (Argumentum ad verecundiam), if you are claiming that taxation is different to theft because "the courts" back it, or its "the law".

An appeal to popularity (Argumentum ad populum), if you are claiming that taxation is different to theft because a majority (supposedly) support it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_baculum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

In any event you have failed to demonstrate that metaphysically taxation is different to theft.
 
Your argument is a fallacy. Depending on which way it is taken it is one of the following:

An appeal to force (Argumentum ad baculum), if you are claiming that taxation is different to theft because "the police" back it.
First off when argumentum ad baculum is applied to a legal problem, most of time time it is not considered a fallacy- looking at the wikipedia article it says
"The Non-fallacious Ad Baculum...
If you drive while drunk, you will be put in jail.
You want to avoid going to jail.
Therefore you should not drive while drunk."
Swap driving while drunk with not paying taxes and if anything it further proves my point.

An appeal to authority (Argumentum ad verecundiam), if you are claiming that taxation is different to theft because "the courts" back it, or its "the law".
Normally yes but seeing as theft and crime in general are legal concepts we must argue them under the umbrella of the law. I'm in now way claiming that these laws may be just/unjust but when arguing legal concepts the court must be considered an imperfect authority.

An appeal to popularity (Argumentum ad populum), if you are claiming that taxation is different to theft because a majority (supposedly) support it.

No I was arguing that taxation was different because it is simply the taking of property whereby the consent of the individual is completely irrelevent and thus not needed whereby theft is the taking of property without the consent of the individual is not given.
 
Supporting Business
Discord Voice
Poképedia
Who did this to my freakin' car!
Dat Boi
Dolan Duck
Dolan Trump
I'm LAAAAAAAME
Live Free or Die
Mew
Mewtwo
Poké Prizebox
Rust Player
Sythe Awards 2016 Winner
Sythe Awards 2017 Winner
Sythe Awards 2019 Winner
Tier 3 Prizebox
Toast Wallet User
First off when argumentum ad baculum is applied to a legal problem, most of time time it is not considered a fallacy- looking at the wikipedia article it says
"The Non-fallacious Ad Baculum...
If you drive while drunk, you will be put in jail.
You want to avoid going to jail.
Therefore you should not drive while drunk."
Swap driving while drunk with not paying taxes and if anything it further proves my point.

You are not arguing the case that if you don't pay taxes you will be kidnapped (which, as wikipedia points out, is true.) In the manner you have used it, it is a fallacy.

Normally yes but seeing as theft and crime in general are legal concepts we must argue them under the umbrella of the law. I'm in now way claiming that these laws may be just/unjust but when arguing legal concepts the court must be considered an imperfect authority.

No I was arguing that taxation was different because it is simply the taking of property whereby the consent of the individual is completely irrelevent and thus not needed whereby theft is the taking of property without the consent of the individual is not given.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

The debate was not about what the current "law" is. Please stop presenting fallacies as arguments.

Given the repeated disingenuity of your arguments, I would appreciate it if you stopped posting in the SFA until you can muster the wherewithal to present intellectually honest arguments.
 
If i support the idea of taxtation, why must i pay for your taxes too?

I support the idea of taxtation, which means i support the idea that EVERYONE in the country will pay X amount of dollars based on their income to build public infrastructure for everybody, so why must i pay for your taxes?

did u see this
 
Supporting Business
Discord Voice
Poképedia
Who did this to my freakin' car!
Dat Boi
Dolan Duck
Dolan Trump
I'm LAAAAAAAME
Live Free or Die
Mew
Mewtwo
Poké Prizebox
Rust Player
Sythe Awards 2016 Winner
Sythe Awards 2017 Winner
Sythe Awards 2019 Winner
Tier 3 Prizebox
Toast Wallet User
If i support the idea of taxtation, why must i pay for your taxes too?

Because I don't support taxes.

I support the idea of taxtation, which means i support the idea that EVERYONE in the country will pay X amount of dollars based on their income to build public infrastructure for everybody, so why must i pay for your taxes?
What you mean to say is you support stealing from others to pay for infrastructure you use. Quite simply they're not "my taxes", they're yours. Therefore you should pay for them.

http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=940416
 
I support taxes, but I think everyone should pay a fair amount, not different for the income.
 
Because I don't support taxes.

What you mean to say is you support stealing from others to pay for infrastructure you use. Quite simply they're not "my taxes", they're yours. Therefore you should pay for them.

http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=940416

If i support taxation, i support the idea of the government or what you say as the 'thieves' taking money from EVERYONE living in the COUNTRY to build public infrastructure, ensure healthcare, law and order, etc.

Therefore, as i support taxation, i support that everyone pays their own tax based on their income too, including those who do not support taxation but are living in the country.

Imagine without taxation, how would a piece of land with people living on it ( a country ) run well?

Wouldn't only the richer ones survive and prosper, where the poorer ones would suffer? Without taxation, there would be no government, no police force or courts to prosecute criminals. Yes, you could hire protection for private sectors, if only you had the money.

What about those who do not have money to hire protection? And what about those who are powerful, unreasonable and mighty, able to gather a large group of people ( an army ), and will start forcing people into slavery, start raping woman and robbing people out of money.
 
I support taxes, but I think everyone should pay a fair amount, not different for the income.

How is that possible?

If i earned $1800, and someone else earned $200 000, and we were to pay the 'fair amount', of let's say $2000, I wouldn't have any money left to survive on.

If the 'fair amount' was $100, would it be enough to actually build anything?
 
Taxation is like the best thing for a country! It is so good until I see the bills and see how much I have to give those -censored- irl newbs.
 
Supporting Business
Discord Voice
Poképedia
Who did this to my freakin' car!
Dat Boi
Dolan Duck
Dolan Trump
I'm LAAAAAAAME
Live Free or Die
Mew
Mewtwo
Poké Prizebox
Rust Player
Sythe Awards 2016 Winner
Sythe Awards 2017 Winner
Sythe Awards 2019 Winner
Tier 3 Prizebox
Toast Wallet User
If i support taxation, i support the idea of the government or what you say as the 'thieves' taking money from EVERYONE living in the COUNTRY to build public infrastructure, ensure healthcare, law and order, etc.

I don't live in a "country". I live in a house. Neither myself nor my house is in a "country".

If you disagree then prove your position:
http://sythe.org/showthread.php?t=940416


How is that possible?

If i earned $1800, and someone else earned $200 000, and we were to pay the 'fair amount', of let's say $2000, I wouldn't have any money left to survive on.

If the 'fair amount' was $100, would it be enough to actually build anything?

There is no "fair" amount. It's just made up. The "fair" amount for "public infrastructure" (which is neither public, nor in most cases usable) would be the amount of said infrastructure that you actually use. But even that wouldn't be fair, because supposedly you, "the public", OWN that infrastructure already. So why would it be fair for you to pay for something you already own?
 
Runescape Gamblingrunescape gambling
Back
Top