Do you believe in the 2nd amendment?

[Mandingo]

I don't know why people take amendments as written law incapable of change. It's called an "amendment", look up the definition before going on a rampage on how if the government takes away our guns they will kill us all. Also, the second amendment gives the right to bear arms during WARTIME, and as far as I know it, there is no need to protect ourselves from an enemy inside of our country cause there isn't any

 

[SuF]

You didn't reply to my last post where I explicitly asked questions.

Anyway, no that's not the case. The argument of "well only law-abiding-citizens are effected by gun laws because criminals will break the law!!" is utter trash. The current system for firearm ownership allows for a massive black market trade; if the ability to purchase guns was limited, the guns on the market would be further limited, with the black market trade following. I myself would suggest a buy-back program, but lets ignore that.

Your average Joe who commits a mass shooting his just that, your average Joe. We can make arguments about their mental stability all-day-long, but an overwhelming majority of firearms used in mass shootings (I believe 89%, but that's off memory so don't hold me to it, it may be higher) are bought legally. These averages Joes - and they are average Joes albeit with whatever issues - are purchasing guns from their local gun stores. Can't purchase it from there? Well, shit. Navigating the black market isn't exactly easy, it isn't a location with some stalls and without some type of connection, (arguably) mentally unstable people are going to have a real problem getting their hands on guns. While not identical, such a scenario can be examined in the ease of access in countries such as Australia and the U.S. If you did have the connections to buy a high powered semi-automatic rifle illegally, the cost difference is astronomical. Your average 22 year old white male in all likelihood will not have thousands of dollars to drop on an AR-15 (opposed to $700). Ok, so what? They use pistols for their shooting spree instead? Well, we could implement laws to help prevent this, but let us say we don't. Pistols will in all likelihood be just a little bit less effective than a military-style rifle both in ammunition capacity, accuracy, and stopping power. Effectively saving lives.

"Guns removed from the world.. impact would be minimal." Again, no. Guns are chosen yes because they are there, but also due to how effective they are. You are much less likely to survive a suicide attempt via firearm than you are via pills. I would argue - and I am sure there are a variety of papers that do just that - that if guns are not in the household, there is a significantly higher chance of surviving a suicide attempt; therefore, a higher chance of getting past whatever is troubling the individual.

You make it sound so easy to steal a gun or buy a gun off the black market. Hmm.. let me go steal an AR-15.. well first I need to figure out where/who to steal it from, than devise a way to do it, then ensure I don't get caught, and then plan my attack. Even if it was easy, it would be an extra step - where someone could very well get caught - to committing a mass shooting and I do not see the problem with that.

Want to site a source or at least some statistics for your gang violence claim? What is nearly all? 90%? 51%?

To the contrary, classes will require responsible owners to purchase the weapons and common sense would hint that common owners not auctioning off their guns to the highest bidder... Safety classes would ensure individuals who own a gun know how to use it (God forbid). I'm not going to really try and make the argument it'll limit gun use in gangs and other similar situations, but that's why there could be other laws.. like hmm a universal back ground check, or perhaps limiting semi-automatic weapon ownership, or providing justification for owning certain firearms, or a variety of other possibilities.

Edit:
And responsible gun owners would be unaffected. Responsible gun owner? Awesome! You'll have no problem passing a mental health examination and a gun safety course. Sorry you had to set aside a few hours of your weekend to ensure you don't go slaughter individuals!

Sorry I was busy and just responded to the lower hanging fruit.

I'm going to ignore suicides (2/3 of all gun deaths every year). The vast majority of the rest of the gun crimes are committed by illegal guns in gang / drug violence. If we look at mass shootings, which are a miniscule fraction of the total gun deaths, yes most of them were with guns bought legally because most of the people who commit them have no criminal history and show no indication that they were going to do anything wrong.

Next let's talk about the AR 15. It is not a high powered rifle. It does not shoot even full size rifle rounds so calling it high powered is simply wrong. You can pick up a much more powerful rifle from WWII and do just as much damage for very little money (the Dallas shooter used a variant of the SKS I believe and since it wasn't an AR 15 no one reported on it). Lastly until recently the most deadly shooting in US history was the Virginia Tech shooting and it was done entirely with pistols. The choice of the weapon when you are trying to kill tons of people really does not matter (see French dude who just used a truck).

I don't think it is beneficial to argue about how many fewer people would actually die from suicides if all guns disappeared. Niether of us has data so I'll just agree to disagree.

I don't really have a good source for the violent crime because I don't remember. I'll copy and paste some stuff from Wikipedia:

The rising trend in homicide rates during the 1980s and early 1990s was most pronounced among lower income and especially unemployed males. Youths and Hispanic and African American males in the U.S. were the most represented, with the injury and death rates tripling for black males aged 13 through 17 and doubling for black males aged 18 through 24.[32][35] The rise in crack cocaine use in cities across the U.S. is often cited as a factor for increased gun violence among youths during this time period.[42][43][44]
...
People with a criminal record were also more likely to die as homicide victims.[32] Between 1990 and 1994, 75% of all homicide victims age 21 and younger in the city of Boston had a prior criminal record. In Philadelphia, the percentage of those killed in gun homicides that had prior criminal records increased from 73% in 1985 to 93% in 1996.[32][56] In Richmond, Virginia, the risk of gunshot injury is 22 times higher for those males involved with crime.[57]

Gun violence happens nearly entirely in large cities and the majority (up to 93%) of the victims were criminals. In addition, concealed carry permit holders and even less likely than police officers to commit a crime.

A safety course and mental health screening would not actually stop any mass shooting and so few people die in mass shootings it is not worth giving up our right to self defense in order to try to stop them. On the contrary I think that the US is a safer place for having more guns in private hands than less.

 

[Fiber Optic]

There should be common sense gun laws. I'm 100% pro 2nd amendment and have owned, operated and loved fire arms my entire life. There should be no "gun show loopholes" where people can buy guns without a background check. Everyone should have to do a background check to purchase a firearm. In my state (PA) you can do private sales of long guns(shotguns, rifles,etc..) i believe you should have to go thru an FFL for long guns & hand guns. As far as magazine capacities, I do not think there should be any restrictions on that. Criminals/terrorists/whoever will get their hands on stuff they want/need anyways. So why cant law abiding citizens have it?

Edit - I think it's COMPLETELY unfair that in some states like california, new york, etc.. guns are SO hard for citizens to obtain(law abiding ones). I think in New Jersey you cant even concealed carry unless you're off duty law enforcement/armed employment. (Writing self defense isn't a valid reason). I don't know how they continue to get away with this stuff (other then the elected officals that WE the people elect). This is an absolute infringement on our rights. Also, there's like ridiculous "wait/processing" times you have to wait to obtain weapons in certain states like New York. So, you go to the store and see a gun you want... you have to wait 6+ months to even be able to get the paper work, etc.. to legally go to the store again and buy it.

 

[SuF]

There should be common sense gun laws. I'm 100% pro 2nd amendment and have owned, operated and loved fire arms my entire life. There should be no "gun show loopholes" where people can buy guns without a background check. Everyone should have to do a background check to purchase a firearm. In my state (PA) you can do private sales of long guns(shotguns, rifles,etc..) i believe you should have to go thru an FFL for long guns & hand guns. As far as magazine capacities, I do not think there should be any restrictions on that. Criminals/terrorists/whoever will get their hands on stuff they want/need anyways. So why cant law abiding citizens have it?

Edit - I think it's COMPLETELY unfair that in some states like california, new york, etc.. guns are SO hard for citizens to obtain(law abiding ones). I think in New Jersey you cant even concealed carry unless you're off duty law enforcement/armed employment. (Writing self defense isn't a valid reason). I don't know how they continue to get away with this stuff (other then the elected officals that WE the people elect). This is an absolute infringement on our rights. Also, there's like ridiculous "wait/processing" times you have to wait to obtain weapons in certain states like New York. So, you go to the store and see a gun you want... you have to wait 6+ months to even be able to get the paper work, etc.. to legally go to the store again and buy it.

The gun show loophole isn't a loophole at all. It is explicitly written into the law that private sales are exempt from the background check system and if you are in the business of selling guns the sales you make are not private sales and are subject to background checks so most sales at gun shows will have background checks done. Regardless if they just made it so that background checks were free I'd be perfectly happy getting rid of the private sale exemption (as long as there was still exemptions to gifting firearms, especially to relatives).