[DENIED] Stop vouch farming/vouch template

There has been a huge problem recently where gold flippers trade for negative profit to quickly farm vouches and scam thousands with little to no effort. BellyFlopper, PAK, StickTalk, Bezos were all obviously flipping gold just for vouches to gain fake trust and all of them managed to scam 5k$+ with just few weeks of vouch farming, and we keep seeing more and more abuse of this system. I think it's time to do something about it because new sythe users will keep losing thousands if we let this continue.

My suggestion is to forbid all vouches that does not include trusting the person with your money. This would be mostly aimed at big traders so they stop giving vouches to people just because they went first to them.

example of allowed vouches:
You bought gold from a site, you went first so you can leave a vouch to the gold site
example of not allowed vouches:
You bought gold from a site and sent your money first and site leaves you a vouch afterwards for buying from them


edit: being mandatory to specify who went first in a trade would also be a big step towards solving this problem, for example we could make a vouch template similar to pm templates which could look something like this

"Vouches must be left using the template below, or must include all the information required"
Type of trade:
Who went first:
Additional comments(not required):

It would help people actually see if the user was ever actually trusted with any substantial amount of money instead of vouches eventually becoming another useless measure like "AMOUNT$ TRADED" that people advertise for fake trust.


My answer to most concerns in this topic to avoid back and forward discussions:

1. Average buyer is clueless and all education initiatives failed
2. The whole point of this suggestion is so people that aren't trusted with money wouldn't look like they are
3. I'm not saying my solution is perfect, but that something needs to be done, feel free to give your feedback how it could be done better as that is my goal with this suggestion

 

How would new users gain any reputation if people cannot acknowledge that they traded with them in the first place? No support, this would just suppress new users from having the chance to make a name for themselves.

 

[Superfluous]

How are people supposed to obtain vouches if they're not able to get them from going second in a trade and no seller will ever go first to someone with no vouches?

 

How would new users gain any reputation if people cannot acknowledge that they traded with them in the first place? No support, this would just suppress new users from having the chance to make a name for themselves.

How are people supposed to obtain vouches if they're not able to get them from going second in a trade and no seller will ever go first to someone with no vouches?

Vouches are meant to represent trust, not give a false sense of security about the person. There are lots of ways to start out like doing services, and selling small amounts. Building a fake image of trust shouldn't be the meta for starting out

 

[S]

No support.

I understand where you're coming from, but on a platform such as Sythe, and it being a free market, this suggestion does nothing but curb the growth of the site, and dissuade newer users from trading.

 

No support.

A rule like this would make it near impossible to grow reputation on site, which would stifle the growth of Sythe and go against free market principles that are promoted here.

 

Updated the topic, but will leave previous suggestion above for the sake of discussion

 

This would be almost impossible to enforce, so for that alone I'll say no support. It's also very clear who went first in a trade if you compare profiles. Obviously more difficult with big gold traders, but then again it's a free market. One more thing, what's gonna happen to their current stack of vouches? New traders would find it much harder to compete with them.

 

No support for the mentioned reasons above + I would like to add that this would make it easier for freshly created accounts to scam small amounts of money. They could argue, that they need you to go first to gather vouches.

Also, you are missing the positive part, which is that lower (or even slightly negative) margins benefit the customers (Ofc, assuming they don't get scammed).

However, I agree that we should encourage people to say who went first, but I wouldn't want it to be a rule.

 

[Superfluous]

Vouches are meant to represent trust, not give a false sense of security about the person. There are lots of ways to start out like doing services, and selling small amounts. Building a fake image of trust shouldn't be the meta for starting out

Okay, so I can sell 1m in 10 installments of 100k each for $0.01 to collect 10 vouches but not go first to buy 100m and collect a single vouch? Seems super easy to get around any type of rule we set on this. Better to leave it up to the buyer to determine whether or not they deem the vouches relevant enough before doing a trade. The same goes for buying things on Amazon, etc.

 

Okay, so I can sell 1m in 10 installments of 100k each for $0.01 to collect 10 vouches but not go first to buy 100m and collect a single vouch? Seems super easy to get around any type of rule we set on this. Better to leave it up to the buyer to determine whether or not they deem the vouches relevant enough before doing a trade. The same goes for buying things on Amazon, etc.

We all know the average buyer is clueless, and we should do everything to protect them as a community

No support for the mentioned reasons above + I would like to add that this would make it easier for freshly created accounts to scam small amounts of money. They could argue, that they need you to go first to gather vouches.

Also, you are missing the positive part, which is that lower (or even slightly negative) margins benefit the customers (Ofc, assuming they don't get scammed).

However, I agree that we should encourage people to say who went first, but I wouldn't want it to be a rule.

I agree that this change would be very harsh and there are many drawbacks to it, but without change we can't move forward. As for the margin part i completely disagree. Lower margins bring no benefit to the customer in a field of no accountability, it just brings instability to the market that can fall like a domino where only the end customer will be the one left with nothing.

 

No support, others have pretty much covered the reasons why.

To your point on noting who goes first - it would definitely be nice, but I don’t think it’s very enforceable.

A lot of suggestions recently have been aimed towards preventing big scam quits and while I agree something needs to be done, I think the focus should be on safe trading practices. Maybe more warnings/encouragements to have users check vouch threads thoroughly, use an MM, etc. New rules aimed at preventing big scam quits but limiting the free market environment won’t be good for Sythe long term

 

[ariabot]

Given what I said on Discord earlier, it isn't a surprise that I strongly disagree with this suggestion. As a goldfarmer, at least half of my vouches are from selling to resellers/sites, who I almost always go first to given that they have thousands more vouches than me.

I got started on this forum selling gold for the DarkScape world-pvp server. My vouches selling DSGP to gold sites prove that I at least had the programming skill required to goldfarm in an extremely hostile environment, and thus I was able to make thousands of dollars within my first month on the site because people believed that a profitable operation would not scam. In contrast, what did BellyFlopper, PAK, StickTalk, Bezos have besides their donor titles? What skills did they have to "prove" their trustworthiness that they wouldn't run as soon as they got the chance?

Vouches are meant to represent trust, not give a false sense of security about the person. There are lots of ways to start out like doing services, and selling small amounts. Building a fake image of trust shouldn't be the meta for starting out

Even if what was proposed in this suggestion was in place when I joined the site, I would have still been able to accumulate vouches because DarkScape was an entirely new market and I was the largest non-gold site supplier for it. But what if I was a brand new user entering the GP market today?

There are lots of ways to start out like doing services

Which aren't relevant to my goldfarming operation

selling small amounts

Which also doesn't demonstrate the full extent of what my operation is capable of producing; I've farmed and sold over $20k worth of GP this month. 80% of the vouches were to a gold site/reseller, and if I wasn't able to use those vouches as evidence that I am a successful goldfarmer, it's unlikely I'd have gotten the 20% of vouches where people went first.

 

Given what I said on Discord earlier, it isn't a surprise that I strongly disagree with this suggestion. As a goldfarmer, at least half of my vouches are from selling to resellers/sites, who I almost always go first to given that they have thousands more vouches than me.

I got started on this forum selling gold for the DarkScape world-pvp server. My vouches selling DSGP to gold sites prove that I at least had the programming skill required to goldfarm in an extremely hostile environment, and thus I was able to make thousands of dollars within my first month on the site because people believed that a profitable operation would not scam. In contrast, what did BellyFlopper, PAK, StickTalk, Bezos have besides their donor titles? What skills did they have to "prove" their trustworthiness that they wouldn't run as soon as they got the chance?


Even if what was proposed in this suggestion was in place when I joined the site, I would have still been able to accumulate vouches because DarkScape was an entirely new market and I was the largest non-gold site supplier for it. But what if I was a brand new user entering the GP market today?

Which aren't relevant to my goldfarming operation

Which also doesn't demonstrate the full extent of what my operation is capable of producing; I've farmed and sold over $20k worth of GP this month. 80% of the vouches were to a gold site/reseller, and if I wasn't able to use those vouches as evidence that I am a successful goldfarmer, it's unlikely I'd have gotten the 20% of vouches where people went first.

You're just making this all about yourself now, no one is stopping anyone from selling things, you don't need vouches to sell it to someone trusted, and being able to gold farm big amounts of gold doesn't make you trusted. Your whole point is that you won't find anyone to sell gold too without vouches which is completely false.

just because someone sold a large amount of gold it doesn't mean they are trustworthy, a successful goldfarmer doesn't rely on people who go first to him and getting banned for scamming wouldn't damage his business in any way (not implying that you're going to do that, just trying to make a point)

all the large scamquitters have also sold at least 50k worth of gold back and forward a week(without making money), that didn't stop them from scamming tho

 

[ariabot]

no one is stopping anyone from selling things, Your whole point is that you won't find anyone to sell gold too without vouches which is completely false.

I did not claim that.

>You don't need vouches to sell it to someone trusted.
>Just because someone sold a large amount of gold it doesn't mean they are trustworthy, a successful goldfarmer doesn't rely on people who go first to him and getting banned for scamming wouldn't damage his business in any way (not implying that you're going to do that, just trying to make a point)

More vouches -> easier to obtain customers that are normal end users (and pay more than gold sites) -> more negotiating power.
If I was not allowed to use vouches where I went first as proof that I was a successful goldfarmer, then I would have a harder time selling to non-gold sites/resellers, while they gain negotiating power over me.
That leads to me getting less income and/or having to give concessions (i.e. doing deliveries) in order to get a better rate.

a successful goldfarmer doesn't rely on people who go first to him and getting banned for scamming wouldn't damage his business in any way (not implying that you're going to do that, just trying to make a point)

I believe I'm the goldfarmer here, not you. Any competent goldfarmer optimizes his operation as much as possible.
One of the effects of having vouches is the ability to sell GP for a higher price. That is because people choose well vouched sites/users, not because they offer the best price, but because it will help them avoid catastrophes like getting scammed. Even being able to sell GP for $0.01 more would increase my yearly income by more than $1000.
Being known as a successful goldfarmer with vouches also has other benefits, like lucrative private script commissions.

@kenz You should read this as well. You'd have made so much money if you hadn't held the false belief that a goldfarmer doesn't need vouches and can scam without consequence.

being able to gold farm big amounts of gold doesn't make you trusted.

See "a site/user has lots of vouches, they're probably making a lot of money, and thus probably won't scam" and "even being able to sell GP for $0.01 more would increase my yearly income by more than $1000". People with no skills (like the resellers mentioned in your OP) are also more likely to exit scam.

all the large scamquitters have also sold at least 50k worth of gold back and forward a week(without making money), that didn't stop them from scamming tho

I dislike the effects of wash-trading as well, because those users make my threads harder to notice. Other people have proposed increased user education initiatives, which would be a far better way of addressing this problem than your suggestion, which greatly harms legit users like myself and doesn't address other "trust" exploits, like "donate and SQ".

You're just making this all about yourself now

That's because your suggestion would make it much harder to compete with established users and as a result, significantly reduce my income.

 

I did not claim that.


More vouches -> easier to obtain customers that are normal end users (and pay more than gold sites) -> more negotiating power.
If I was not allowed to use vouches where I went first as proof that I was a successful goldfarmer, then I would have a harder time selling to non-gold sites/resellers, while they gain negotiating power over me.
That leads to me getting less income and/or having to give concessions (i.e. doing deliveries) in order to get a better rate.


I believe I'm the goldfarmer here, not you. A successful goldfarmer optimizes his operation as much as possible.
One of the effects of having vouches is the ability to sell GP for a higher price. That is because people choose well vouched sites/users, not because they offer the best price, but because it will help them avoid catastrophes like getting scammed. Even being able to sell GP for $0.01 more would increase my yearly income by more than $1000.
Being known as a successful goldfarmer with vouches also has other benefits, like lucrative private script commissions.

@kenz You should read this as well. You'd have made so much money if you hadn't held the false belief that a goldfarmer doesn't need vouches and can scam without consequence.


See "a site/user has lots of vouches, they're probably making a lot of money, and thus probably won't scam" and "even being able to sell GP for $0.01 more would increase my yearly income by more than $1000". People with no skills (like the resellers mentioned in your OP) are also more likely to exit scam.


I dislike the effects of wash-trading as well, because those users make my threads harder to notice. Other people have proposed increased user education initiatives, which would be a far better way of addressing this problem than your suggestion, which greatly harms legit users like myself and doesn't address other "trust" exploits, like "donate and SQ".


That's because your suggestion would make it much harder to compete with established users and as a result, significantly reduce my income.

You don't seem to understand where im going with this so i will try to make it more simple
1. Average buyer is clueless and all education initiatives failed
2. The whole point of this suggestion is so people that aren't trusted with money wouldn't look like they are (that you find as a problem, which looks rather personal)
3. I'm not saying my solution is perfect, but that something needs to be done, feel free to give your feedback how it could be done better as that is my goal with this suggestion

 

[ariabot]

The whole point of this suggestion is so people that aren't trusted with money wouldn't look like they are (that you find as a problem, which looks rather personal)

Do you think that I like that $500 donors who might not even be making any money appear to be more trusted than me in the eyes of a new user?
Hell no. In fact, I missed out on a 5b sale because BellyFlopper scammed that person while I was asleep.
However, your suggestion does nothing to address people donating for "trust" (among other exploits) and fucks over goldfarmers by reducing our negotiating power.

Average buyer is clueless and all education initiatives failed

The threads about common scam tactics and exploits to inflate "trust" aren't as visible as they could be (i.e. as visible as the one about Discord imposters)

I'm not saying my solution is perfect, but that something needs to be done, feel free to give your feedback how it could be done better as that is my goal with this suggestion

I certainly don't like that people get scammed by people using tactics to inflate "trust", but as stated earlier, additional and more visible education initiatives are a better solution than yet more market restrictions the staff will have to implement (and spend the time to enforce).

 

"Vouches must be left using the template below, or must include all the information required"
Type of trade:
Who went first:
Additional comments(not required):

I would support this part. But what would happend with current vouches ?

 

I think the template is a nice idea because it states what happened in the trade. I’m sure there’s a way to beef up the details portion as well.

However, your first part I feel would just corner the market so no one would be able to sell. Eventually, Sythe would just become a hub for big sellers to link their websites / discord’s.

 

I would support this part. But what would happend with current vouches ?

Nothing

Do you think that I like that $500 donors who might not even be making any money appear to be more trusted than me in the eyes of a new user?
Hell no. In fact, I missed out on a 5b sale because BellyFlopper scammed that person while I was asleep.
However, your suggestion does nothing to address people donating for "trust" (among other exploits) and fucks over goldfarmers by reducing our negotiating power.


The threads about common scam tactics and exploits to inflate "trust" aren't as visible as they could be (i.e. as visible as the one about Discord imposters)


I certainly don't like that people get scammed by people using tactics to inflate "trust", but as stated earlier, additional and more visible education initiatives are a better solution than yet more market restrictions the staff will have to implement (and spend the time to enforce).

All i see from you is " I" "ME" and "MY BUSINESS" which sounds exactly like all the sq'ers mentioned above. If all you have to offer people is fake trust your business is trash, no offense.