Free will

[Shall Skill]

Shredder has convinced me that there is no free will. I'm sure to bring this up with friends.

 

[drgn returns]

See here we go again... the free will vs. the peer pressure fact... people have a choice what to do .. true over time the human body and mind will detiriate... however in your days of youth and stuff you have a chance to decide on what you wanna do... so you have free will.. but then again there are things that prove that some people dont have free will b/c there use to an environment that theyre told everything to do... nature vs. nurture fact... and then there are people who are independent... which they show they have free will

 

[Shredderbeam]

See here we go again... the free will vs. the peer pressure fact... people have a choice what to do .. true over time the human body and mind will detiriate... however in your days of youth and stuff you have a chance to decide on what you wanna do... so you have free will.. but then again there are things that prove that some people dont have free will b/c there use to an environment that theyre told everything to do... nature vs. nurture fact... and then there are people who are independent... which they show they have free will

This has nothing to do with peer pressure. It's about determinism.

 

[Shin]

I agree with you in that the mind is the sum of the brain

I don't think that free will really exists, though. Certainly, it seems that we have it, and it seems to be the preferable way to live one's life, but I do not see how unthinking particles can form truly free choices.

Do we have the free will to sit at our home everyday and do nothing?

Well, yes... for a while.

But then we are all bound by our society which requires us all to work, so that we can make money in order to support ourselves.

I completely agree; No free will.

~Unb4nn3d

 

[Arya]

Do we have the free will to sit at our home everyday and do nothing?

Well, yes... for a while.

But then we are all bound by our society which requires us all to work, so that we can make money in order to support ourselves.

I completely agree; No free will.

~Unb4nn3d

So, for the few hours that you can do as you wish; sit on your couch and do nothing ; is that not free will? It matters not how long you have to do this, but simply the fact that you can do this.

Free will has it's limits. No such thing as infinite amounts of free will. I can sit, as my own pace, on my own time, and I can do this without rules from anyone else. However, I agree with you on one thing. Our societies define the amount of free-will, us as leeches, are given.

The man who lives alone in the forest, skills at his fingertips for whatever he may face, and noone else to stop him, has everything short of death as a factor of free will. However, the man who goes to work, has a family, and lives in a busy place has his free will limited. In such places, society has set authorities to make sure that free will is limited.

Simple.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Do we have the free will to sit at our home everyday and do nothing?

Well, yes... for a while.

But then we are all bound by our society which requires us all to work, so that we can make money in order to support ourselves.

I completely agree; No free will.

~Unb4nn3d

Well I'm really talking about free will in the context of determinism, not society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

So, for the few hours that you can do as you wish; sit on your couch and do nothing ; is that not free will? It matters not how long you have to do this, but simply the fact that you can do this.

Your actions are determined by the paths of particles, though. "You" do not choose them.

 

[Arya]

Your actions are determined by the paths of particles, though. "You" do not choose them.

Elaborate?

Am "I" not made up by particles? If so, then it is "me", then I made the whole of those particles. The path of particles = The path of me.

 

[Shredderbeam]

There is no choice involved. The particles that comprise you, with their defined position and velocity, are simply going to interact in a certain fashion in the future, in a theoretically predictable manner. You do not choose the fundamental workings of an atom, or the inter-molecular interactions of your cells, or the grand actions of your body.

 

[xxthebeastxx]

Elaborate?

Am "I" not made up by particles? If so, then it is "me", then I made the whole of those particles. The path of particles = The path of me.

Your choice isn't spontaneous, theoretically if anyone knew your personality and what is happening around them, they could predict your actions.

 

[Power of Truth]

Isn't this also called "determinism"?
Sorry if this has already been said in the topic, I only skimmed through the first page.

I really don't know about this subject. It seems kind of eerie to think that we don't really have free will, but that our brain has already determined it before and makes it seem as though it were free will.

 

[urmom2]

Shredderbeam, sorry but i am a bit confused and i would like to get it straightened out.

I think what your saying is that its not really "me" making a descion its the particales of witch my brain is made up of?

that my brain just gives me the urge to make the chooices that i make daily because of the particals and other things that make up my brain? ill use someone elses example... im setting in class and all of the sudden i start thinking of stabing the kid infront of me..your saying its not really me thats choosing to think that its "my" brain?

im not sure if that made complete sense to you since its 2:38am when i posted it but try to understand please this topic does intrest me

 

[Desir0]

Shredder has kinda convinced me tbh ;/

But i still think theres a level of free will.

 

[xalyamax]

that my brain just gives me the urge to make the chooices that i make daily because of the particals and other things that make up my brain? ill use someone elses example... im setting in class and all of the sudden i start thinking of stabing the kid infront of me..your saying its not really me thats choosing to think that its "my" brain?

im not sure if that made complete sense to you since its 2:38am when i posted it but try to understand please this topic does intrest me

He's saying that at that certain moment, your brain will create reactions in such way that you will begin starting to do certain things. EG thinking of stabbing the person in front of you.

So if we know where every particle of the brain starts and the other information (velocity, position...) we can determine in what way they will react with the other particles in your brain and that result gives us all the actions of the human brain, and the body related with the brain.



I don't 100% agree with the theory though

Our 'actions' are not solely based on the position of our brains but rather every particle in existence. If our brain decides to cross the road without looking, and suddenly a car collides with us, the particles of our brain partially decides our outcome (eg if we would 'predict' the future of that person we would see he would cross the road, and then assume that he lives on, but actually due to the reactions of all other particles around us, a car bumped into the person).

So our 'actions' are based on every particle in existence.

 

[oops u fail]

I myself believe we are. We control our movements, which were thought in the brain. We control what we eat. We control almost everything on earth, except for natures wonders. We can change anything, but we choose to fail in economics, and items which can harm our Earth.

 

[Shin]

I myself believe we are. We control our movements, which were thought in the brain. We control what we eat. We control almost everything on earth, except for natures wonders. We can change anything, but we choose to fail in economics, and items which can harm our Earth.

Do you control the inevitable reasoning that most individuals must attend school/college/work in order to make a living? In reality, not many people may choose whether to do this or not, unless one has a brain with a marketing scheme, that sends them free upon success.

I don't believe that all people have free will, but it is existant for some. My reasoning? Shown above.

And what does 'free will' have to do with the particles in your brain? Is that simply referring to your thoughts and beliefs? If so, is one to say that your brain controls someone, rather than one controls themselves?
-Interesting outlook if so.

 

[p0oned y0u1]

Shredder,

I am coming from a religious stand point here so you can tear this up all you want. I am just throwing my 2 cents of religion in.

My good friend Jeff (you and him still have yet to talk lol) tells me that everything is predetermined by God. Which means that in all sense we do not have a free will of our own. We might think we do, but all and all everything was predetermined by our creator.

If that is true then I do not see it as us choosing to be "saved", or accepting Christ. Which is an impossibility for me to comprehend on a religious level. Anyway I believe in free will us choosing our own path, but this is not from a scientific stand point. It is from a religious one, and this is not ignorant this is just another point of view. So if anyone calls my post ignorant they happen to be very close minded in the way they look at the world because you can't prove there is no God as much as I can't prove there is, but I don't want this to turn into a religious debate so I won't go there any further.

I believe as a Christian we have free will just from what I have read in the Bible. I do not have any scientific knowledge that makes this true, it is just my beliefs. This is obviously not the beliefs of all Christians as I have stated my close friend does not believe the same way and he is much more learned them me.

 

[natinsatan]

at this point in time its hard to comprehend, as in we arnt evolved enough kinda like you cant think of infinite

 

[xalyamax]

And what does 'free will' have to do with the particles in your brain? Is that simply referring to your thoughts and beliefs? If so, is one to say that your brain controls someone, rather than one controls themselves?
-Interesting outlook if so.

Because everything you do is sent by a reaction in your brain, and because all the particles in your brain where set that way, it is inevitable that at a certain moment you will act a certain way. Because you don't have the will to suddenly 'change' the position/velocity... of those particles.

My good friend Jeff (you and him still have yet to talk lol) tells me that everything is predetermined by God. Which means that in all sense we do not have a free will of our own. We might think we do, but all and all everything was predetermined by our creator.

If that is true then I do not see it as us choosing to be "saved", or accepting Christ. Which is an impossibility for me to comprehend on a religious level. Anyway I believe in free will us choosing our own path, but this is not from a scientific stand point.

There is some big contradiction in that post, first you say that everything is pretedermined by god, and suddenly you start saying that we have a free will in choosing our path? Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying though.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Isn't this also called "determinism"?
Sorry if this has already been said in the topic, I only skimmed through the first page.

I really don't know about this subject. It seems kind of eerie to think that we don't really have free will, but that our brain has already determined it before and makes it seem as though it were free will.

Yes, it is known as determinism.

Shredderbeam, sorry but i am a bit confused and i would like to get it straightened out.

I think what your saying is that its not really "me" making a descion its the particales of witch my brain is made up of?

that my brain just gives me the urge to make the chooices that i make daily because of the particals and other things that make up my brain? ill use someone elses example... im setting in class and all of the sudden i start thinking of stabing the kid infront of me..your saying its not really me thats choosing to think that its "my" brain?

im not sure if that made complete sense to you since its 2:38am when i posted it but try to understand please this topic does intrest me

Your brain is composed of nothing but particles. Each of those particles has a definite position and velocity. If your brain is responsible for wishing to stab the kid in front of you, then yes, that thought was "predestined".

Shredder has kinda convinced me tbh ;/

But i still think theres a level of free will.

Then I haven't convinced you...

He's saying that at that certain moment, your brain will create reactions in such way that you will begin starting to do certain things. EG thinking of stabbing the person in front of you.

So if we know where every particle of the brain starts and the other information (velocity, position...) we can determine in what way they will react with the other particles in your brain and that result gives us all the actions of the human brain, and the body related with the brain.

I don't 100% agree with the theory though

Our 'actions' are not solely based on the position of our brains but rather every particle in existence. If our brain decides to cross the road without looking, and suddenly a car collides with us, the particles of our brain partially decides our outcome (eg if we would 'predict' the future of that person we would see he would cross the road, and then assume that he lives on, but actually due to the reactions of all other particles around us, a car bumped into the person).

So our 'actions' are based on every particle in existence.

That is correct, particles outside of our brains also have an effect - but those particles also have a particular position/velocity, leaving us with the same result.

My good friend Jeff (you and him still have yet to talk lol) tells me that everything is predetermined by God. Which means that in all sense we do not have a free will of our own. We might think we do, but all and all everything was predetermined by our creator.

If that is true then I do not see it as us choosing to be "saved", or accepting Christ. Which is an impossibility for me to comprehend on a religious level. Anyway I believe in free will us choosing our own path, but this is not from a scientific stand point. It is from a religious one, and this is not ignorant this is just another point of view. So if anyone calls my post ignorant they happen to be very close minded in the way they look at the world because you can't prove there is no God as much as I can't prove there is, but I don't want this to turn into a religious debate so I won't go there any further.

Is that point of view based upon reason?

 

[xalyamax]

That is correct, particles outside of our brains also have an effect - but those particles also have a particular position/velocity, leaving us with the same result.

Yeah I know it's basicly the same result. But I thought I would just add my opinion to the discussion.