Holding Staff Accountable

[Gun]

How about leaving this open so the community can actually place it's input? This is a community thread in "Our Community" suggestions forum.

Why is staff not held accountable?

There are strict rules for regular members, up to a permanent ban.

Yet when a staff member's post is reported I NEVER get confirmation that the report was handled, I assume it just gets tossed by whoever dealt with it.


Now how about accountability with their job?

Some staff members time and time again fail the community. They make continual decisions that are incorrect and effect the other parties. ie; Handling reports incorrectly, rules violations, etc.

Staff services the community and the people within it, yet there never seems to be even a slap on the wrist when they fuck up. Can we integrate a formal feedback system monitored by Admins on their lower counterparts? (Beyond a feedback thread.....)


Why is there such a big issue with transparency on this site? Nearly every staff member has an issue with being able to hold them self or each other accountable, why? You guys are working as individuals right now rather than a cumulative team accomplishing goals and daily tasks, this is why you are failing the community.

Nobody in the community wants to hear "We volunteered for this so i can only give it 50%". That's a crock of shit. You knew what you were getting into and nobody is forcing you to stay there; if you cannot do what needs to be done correctly and timely what good are you other than a body?

 

[Pain]

Upper staff are responsible for holding the staff team accountable.

Having staff hold each other accountable non stop would just turn the site into a war zone, can you imagine if staff started to hold grudges against other staff for overruling their decisions or infracting them? You'd have a war on your hands, Considering theres like what, ~ 3 active admins and a developer you suggest that we make those 3 people try to handle not only the community but then try to prevent a all out grudge match breaking out on the staff team, staff infracting other staff and other similar things would only cause a mess for the upper staff and staff team which would bleed into the community, you'd have sides starting to be chosen and u'd have a terrible divide.

Staff are human, mistakes happen, from what I've seen(I look at every single dispute, pardon, dnt request and scam report individually) very few mistakes are made.

In all honesty I've spent a LONG time browsing the archives and running through things, probably more than any other sythe user ever, I can safely conclude that staff making mistakes is something you can classify as a rarity, if you factor out the mistakes new staff make due to inexperience(which is fine to forgive, it happens), I'd say that honestly the ratio of correct decisions vs mistakes is 100:1 or higher.

I think your upset with how staff have been treating things you did to yourself and are trying to point the finger at them(hence the repost of this).

I also find it extremely ironic that people want staff held accountable for "mistakes" when Sythe has about the strictest policy to be able to ban or twc members there is, most people find their conditions difficult or time consuming to meet as is, they issue bans on VERY strict guidelines, if you meet the guidelines you cant blame them for holding you accountable, if they made a mistake then that's part of the job, job mistakes happen, if to many job mistakes happen then they get demoted(although I imagine most resign before hand).

I'm guessing they unbanned you on merit because they found 6 months harsh even though you (question) may of met the 6 month ban guidelines they let you come back early which isn't a mistake, its a kindness lol(although ur case was questionable tbh).

This:
Staff services the community and the people within it

Is flat wrong, staffs jobs are not to cater to the community, their jobs are to cater to the rules and guidelines set by higher staff. Staff aren't answerable directly to the community, the UPPER(HIGHEST STAFF) are answerable to the community because it may effect their income or the actual site,which causes a trickle down effect to the lower staff, the lower staff however aren't in reality answerable to anyone but the upper staff.

I've never stumbled across a thread or something similar that was community driven that has resulted in a demotion of a staff member that I've been able to find and I've gone back pretty far(Although I'm not infallible by any means I may of missed them or it), inactivity yes, bad moderating yes, but direct complaints from the community or something similar? Never seen it tbh.

Why is there such a big issue with transparency on this site? Nearly every staff member has an issue with being able to hold them self or each other accountable, why? You guys are working as individuals right now rather than a cumulative team accomplishing goals and daily tasks, this is why you are failing the community.


As stated above they don't answer to the community, the upper staff answer to the community the lower staff answer to the guidelines set by upper staff & upper staff themselves.


Also am I the only one that hates when people make threads and complain and then provide absolutely no examples or evidence to backup a claim? It pisses me the fuck off when I see people bitch about DnT and then propose no changes or alternatives besides "scrap it".

Your suggestion might be much better if you can show examples of staff NOT being held accountable by the people their suppose to be or examples of where staff "failed" the community.

You make accusations and complaints about the staff team without providing any links or evidence, how do you think that is going to go over?


Nobody in the community wants to hear "We volunteered for this so i can only give it 50%". That's a crock of shit. You knew what you were getting into and nobody is forcing you to stay there; if you cannot do what needs to be done correctly and timely what good are you other than a body?

Between the fact that people have been mocking the dead, mass scamming everytime something goes wrong and then pointing the finger at staff for being to ban heavy I think its a miracle that Firez or someone else hasn't just laid into the community frankly, I don't blame them for giving 50% with so many disgusting community members who wants to be a supportive helpful moderator for someone who disrespects the dead or tells them off and then needs them the next minute? Fucking nobody.

NO SUPPORT.

 

[tMoon]

The old thread for reference: Holding Staff Accountable

My point still remains that no examples have been provided. You are accusing staff of being unaccountable with no actual (provided) basis for your accusation.

I and others have acknowledged mistakes we have made in the past and all of them were just that - mistakes.

Also, staff decisions are not nearly as individualistic as you make them seem. Just because one moderator posts on a report or a dispute does not mean others were not involved. We have a discord, we get input from one-another, and we act on that input.

Lastly, if you have a problem with a staff member or their actions, PM them and ask them to look again. Don't like them, disagree with them, or something else? PM a staff member above them. There is a hierarchy of staff for a reason with the admins and Sythe/Matthew at the top.

 

[Im Solo]

The old thread for reference: Holding Staff Accountable

My point still remains that no examples have been provided. You are accusing staff of being unaccountable with no actual (provided) basis for your accusation.

I and others have acknowledged mistakes we have made in the past and all of them were just that - mistakes.

Also, staff decisions are not nearly as individualistic as you make them seem. Just because one moderator posts on a report or a dispute does not mean others were not involved. We have a discord, we get input from one-another, and we act on that input.

Lastly, if you have a problem with a staff member or their actions, PM them and ask them to look again. Don't like them, disagree with them, or something else? PM a staff member above them. There is a hierarchy of staff for a reason with the admins and Sythe/Matthew at the top.

Being the devils advocate, as I am actually happy with the current staff. One point gun brought up in discord is that today he was infracted for spam in the RaS section, in the past week Gun has reported a user (John Dev.....) for similar activity and it is apparent that no punishment was dished out. One of guns points was that

"-So two instances of the same exact circumstances should be treated entirely different?-"

As much as we all hate gun, he does have some validity to his point. If he gets infracted for something other users don't how can you say that staff follow strict guidelines. It would appear there is personal bias.

Now again as I said before I am happy with the current staff and the job they are doing and in the above scenario Gun did break the rules and should be infracted but so did the other user who should have the same exact consequences.

 

[Mootrucks]

Being the devils advocate, as I am actually happy with the current staff. One point gun brought up in discord is that today he was infracted for spam in the RaS section, in the past week Gun has reported a user (John Dev.....) for similar activity and it is apparent that no punishment was dished out. One of guns points was that

"-So two instances of the same exact circumstances should be treated entirely different?-"

As much as we all hate gun, he does have some validity to his point. If he gets infracted for something other users don't how can you say that staff follow strict guidelines. It would appear there is personal bias.

Now again as I said before I am happy with the current staff and the job they are doing and in the above scenario Gun did break the rules and should be infracted but so did the other user who should have the same exact consequences.

John Devola has been given infractions for it multiple times.

 

[ShipTheFlip]

I think staff's doing fine. What exactly is it that you're whining about? Give us quotes or examples so we know what you're talking about. Also this seems like a feedback kinda thread rather than a suggestion since there's no detailed plan being proposed, just a bunch of questions

 

[MrRob]

are you reporting staff posts and threads because its content you don't agree with or are they in direct breakage of the rules?

 

[tMoon]

Being the devils advocate, as I am actually happy with the current staff. One point gun brought up in discord is that today he was infracted for spam in the RaS section, in the past week Gun has reported a user (John Dev.....) for similar activity and it is apparent that no punishment was dished out. One of guns points was that

"-So two instances of the same exact circumstances should be treated entirely different?-"

As much as we all hate gun, he does have some validity to his point. If he gets infracted for something other users don't how can you say that staff follow strict guidelines. It would appear there is personal bias.

Now again as I said before I am happy with the current staff and the job they are doing and in the above scenario Gun did break the rules and should be infracted but so did the other user who should have the same exact consequences.

I do not know the exact situation you are talking about; however, staff is given leeway in infractions.

I personally look at the intent behind the post, how many of them there are, whether they realize they're not being helpful, and a variety of other factors when deciding to infract. Two people posting in the same section is not enough (however, If I hand out one infraction on a thread, everyone else on that thread breaking the same rule will also receive one). Even then, if someone PM's me saying "hey, my bad on that post, I did x because of y" then I'll probably reverse it and many Sythe users can attest to that.

Basically, staff are given leeway which may not be the answer you're looking for on why certain posts are infracted, but it is the case.

 

[Gun]

I do not know the exact situation you are talking about; however, staff is given leeway in infractions.

I personally look at the intent behind the post, how many of them there are, whether they realize they're not being helpful, and a variety of other factors when deciding to infract. Two people posting in the same section is not enough (however, If I hand out one infraction on a thread, everyone else on that thread breaking the same rule will also receive one). Even then, if someone PM's me saying "hey, my bad on that post, I did x because of y" then I'll probably reverse it and many Sythe users can attest to that.

Basically, staff are given leeway which may not be the answer you're looking for on why certain posts are infracted, but it is the case.

"Giving leeway" would mean being lax maybe in their first offense. I've reported easily 6-10 posts of John's in the past week yet he still hasnt been banned and only have 2 replies to the reports. I post once and It's instantly an infraction.

People not voicing their opinion because they don't think it will have an effect is not the same as you guys doing well.

 

[SPM322]

Support my reports always get ignored if they are on $200 donors+

 

[tMoon]

"Giving leeway" would mean being lax maybe in their first offense. I've reported easily 6-10 posts of John's in the past week yet he still hasnt been banned and only have 2 replies to the reports. I post once and It's instantly an infraction.

To the contrary, it means giving leeway and can apply to any and every report.

I don't know why you aren't receiving replies from reports as it's pretty standard when a report is handled. Reports do not equivocate to infractions and there are many situations in which your posts have simply been deleted. If you were infracted for every infractable post you make, you would be banned much more often.

People not voicing their opinion because they don't think it will have an effect is not the same as you guys doing well.

I encourage people to give feedback to staff and we try to be as receptive as possible. It's also worth noting that receiving consistent negative feedback (with very little suggestion on improvement) from the same indicidual(s) whom have a reputation for trolling does not mean staff is doing bad.

Support my reports always get ignored if they are on $200 donors+

Can you provide some instances? I have led repors leading to bans on multiple high $ donors and their ranks play no measure in how their reports are handled.

Making baseless general statements do not help your end-goal of improving staff; rather, the injure it. I too want to ensure staff is the best they can be, but in order to do this we need actual information on where staff may be lacking. This does not mean making baseless statements about staff doing/not doing x because of y.

 

[Gun]

To the contrary, it means giving leeway and can apply to any and every report.

I don't know why you aren't receiving replies from reports as it's pretty standard when a report is handled and I will look at it later tonight; however, reports do not equivocate to infractions and there are many situations in which your posts have simply been deleted. If you were infracted for every infractable post you make, you would be banned much more often.



I encourage people to give feedback to staff and we try to be as receptive as possible. It's also worth noting that receiving consistent negative feedback (with very little suggestion on improvement) from the same individuals whom have a reputation for trolling does not mean staff is doing bad.



Can you provide some instances? I have led reports leading to bans on multiple high $ donors and their ranks play no measure in how their reports are handled.

Making baseless general statements do not help your end-goal of improving staff; rather, the injure it. I too want to ensure staff is the best they can be, but in order to do this we need actual information on where staff may be lacking. This does not mean making baseless statements about staff doing/not doing x because of y.

You really want instances? Sure I'll post some of my own.

How about how my pardons have been handled?

- Forthcoming with all information requested.
- Paid the entire $ value of all scams for years of wrong doing.
- After my initial pardon, I uncovered extra accounts for hundreds of other scams that were completely buried and paid them in full as well.
- 2 months just to get into voting because not 1 out of 15 staff members "had time" to look at it, yet they were actively inputting and voting on tons of other pardons.

I could go on and on about how I come forth with the intent to repay in full and get completely shit on for no reason. Never once helped. I had to beg @Dave to even look at the fucking thing for weeks when I'm willing to pay out hundreds to people to get it solved.

Still to this day never received an answer as to why nobody would assist due to personal feelings. HOLD YOURSELF ACCOUNTABLE.

Mishandling of reports:

Gun 10$ Dice scam
- Banned on Discord after given a DNT post-ban. Discord bans are only warranted for a user perm banned.
- Banned on Sythe without a valid report.
- Person reporting never even requested their money and took a while to roll so I left. You can't expect anyone to sit around when you're not timely.

gun is god WolfRunescape Outstanding Debt (Video Neglegance
- Scammed for 172m 07.
- I had a 32m Debt to @WolfRunescape and that was paid by Pie, who scammed me.
- Pie pardoned without paying remaining 140m.
- Amount on account deemed to be 32m because "We take his word over yours tbh" @video you really think id stick onto this for this long for 140m?

Gun Is God Major Scammer/Liar
- Instantly banned before staff investigated at all. Yet you guys want us to respect you and trust that you will make a good decision on whatever it may be, yet you cannot perform.

Gun dice scam
- Banned on Sythe + Discord with no proof. Discord is the Spam Forum and is not proof.
- User reporting never requested payment, same info as above.
- Given DNT after requesting unban. User still did not request payment or send BTC link.
- Had to beg and plead to be unbanned just because @Tyler wouldn't admit to being wrong.

- I have been banned probably 20 times for things stated in Discord/Spam Forum that do not go against the rules. Why do I get restricted and have to attempt to get unbanned because you guys don't adhere to the rules stated?


I could go on and on with 50 more incidents and dig into issues with other people as well but I don't have time for that.

How far do I need to expand for you to realize that change is needed. People stating they should only give 50% because they receive grief? lmao. People are giving you morons grief because you can't seem to do things in a proper manner.

You may not like me, but guess what? Get the fuck over it. I've been on this dying shit site for 11 years, I am part of the furniture. That doesn't mean you should handle things any different than anyone else just because you personally dislike me, execute your actions in a controlled manner.

 

Sounds more like you're now complaining that you're treated unfairly. Your lengthy post has nothing to do with staff not holding themselves accountable. Do I think some cases regarding you were handled poorly? Yes. But that's a tangent to what you initially brought up. What are you really suggesting here then?

 

Regarding the reports being tossed aside: something that'd fix that is allowing mods to infract each other. I remember on vB you couldn't do that. If it's the same on Xenforo then that should change.

 

Regarding the reports being tossed aside: something that'd fix that is allowing mods to infract each other. I remember on vB you couldn't do that. If it's the same on Xenforo then that should change.

you can only infract mods below you, not on the same level.

 

you can only infract mods below you, not on the same level.

That's dumb

 

[EditMyThread]

I agree completely with this. It's a shame that everyone acts as if things never go wrong.

I would only say this, yes, many of them bust their ass to clean up the forums and make sure everything runs as smoothly as possible, but please don't come with the "provide proof" bullshit as if nothing ever goes wrong. Every member, as well as staff member knows that the system isn't perfect. It's a matter of acknowledging it and doing something about it.

I'm one of those people who is greatly appreciative of the staff team and the work they do, simply because I know it takes up a lot of time and effort, and most of it is stuff that we don't even get to see, so we don't necessarily recognize them for it. But on the other hand, I would be a hypocrite if I recognized them for their hard work but turned a blind eye to when things get handled incorrectly.

To those like @Bus369 who worship and lay at the feet of the staff team, Restitution. No, they're not perfect, and they never will be.

P.S, make a staff application already, k?

 

I support this but really really can't see it passing the staff lounge because they're voting on them self being a countable

 

Aight bet.