Abortion

[the_wippit]

scripture is not the only thing that guides christians, but here we go
"baby leapt for joy" in mother's womb Lk 1:41,44
"children & sons in womb" Gen 25:21-22; 2 Ki 19:3; Ruth 1:11
they are called children in the womb for Gods sakes!
conceived a "son" Lk 1:36; Acts 7:29
if doesnt say that she conceived a lump of cells, but a son

Job 3:16 Babies that die before birth are called "infants" that never saw light. This is exactly like babies that are aborted. This word (Heb. OLEL) always and without exception refers to human individuals and even grown men (cf. Hosea 13:16; Psalm 8:2; Joel 2:16).

so scripture does say its wrong, but ur an athiest any ways. Unfortunatly matter like these always seem to come down to what u beleive and really cant be proven till we die, im only 13 years old and i simply belive its wrong becuase im told it is by the people i love and respect, but this arguement really cant be won

 

[tarx l00ter]

No, no one has the right to end someones else life ..
It's like saying .. should we kill someone that's in coma?

It's easy to forget someone if you've never known him in your life.

Offtopic: I look up to you shredderbeam. You inspire me.
I've been around here for quite a while .. Let's say from the good old days..
But i've had some account problems.

 

[Krypton6]

And why isn't it exactly equal to a human life? What specific characteristics about a fertilized cell seperate it from an adult human being, if it is to grow up and become one?[/quoite]

It is not 100% equal to a human life simply because it is not living just yet but a living human is.

First, not all rapes occur in situations when the woman is stupid. Even if they did, are you suggesting that we adopt a policy of "It's your own damn fault, go cry about it"? Quite heartless, if you ask me.?[/quoite]

In what ways do rapes hapend then? Give me an example of a commen sittuation of some woman being raped which does not include stupidity from her side. I have never said that such policy should be used towards rape victims.

Also, you DO need to be a woman to fully understand the complex emotions that pregnancy brings forth. You speak from the position of a man, but if you could experience but a fraction of the pain they endure, your words would be silenced in awe..?[/quoite]

I am not talking about pregnancy problems, but about womans wanting to kill the potential life inside of them as a result of their own stupidity and mistakes.
Besides that I dont even need to know how the womans feel about unwanted pregnancy, since it is simple consequences of their past actions, they´ll just have to deal with it (giving the child to the hospital), instead of killing the child.

It's hardly murder. It's a cell, or a group of cells! You yourself admitted that it wasn't exactly equal to a human life! The only special thing about it is that it has the potential to become a human life.[/quoite]

It is murder,. Yes I admitted that is not exactly equal to a human life, but that does not make it less than murder. Its not like you have to chose between one 20 year old man dying or a cell, but instead your killing the life inside of you for NO REASON. Your not saving anyones life or making it better, so why do you have to abort!
Abortion only causes more pain, but letting the baby be born and then given to the hospital does no bad. So what your doing here is killing a life inside of you for no reason what so ever.

Incorrect. I'm saying that the inability of a woman to choose what she does with her own body is the breaking of freedom.[/quoite]

Once some one has chosen to get pregnant, your accepting the fact that you will temporarily lose some of your rights. A pregnant woman is not allowed to do the same things as some woman not being pregnant.

And once you have a life inside of you, your body is no longer "yours", but also her/his, and the government has to take care of that life if your not willing to do that.

What about cases where the woman's life is threatened due to complications of pregnancy, and an abortion is the only way to save her life?.[/quoite]

If you have to chose between a living human and a unliving human, the living human is the right choice, but that is not the case in most of the abortions.

You can't always do that.

In any case, why a woman would need to abort is irrelevant. The right of privacy was handed to the people of the United States in the Supreme Court case of Roe vs. Wade. This means that it is a universal right of ALL people to be entitled to the privacy of their own bodies, regardless of whatever a tyrannical government may have to say!

You can always do that!

The reason is highly relevant.
As I mentioned above, once you have taken the risks of becomming pregnant and then turn out pregnant, you must take the consequences, and one of those are some of your rights being temporarily gone.
Once you have a life inside of you, your body is no longer just yours!

 

[Shredderbeam]

scripture is not the only thing that guides christians, but here we go
"baby leapt for joy" in mother's womb Lk 1:41,44
"children & sons in womb" Gen 25:21-22; 2 Ki 19:3; Ruth 1:11
they are called children in the womb for Gods sakes!
conceived a "son" Lk 1:36; Acts 7:29
if doesnt say that she conceived a lump of cells, but a son

Job 3:16 Babies that die before birth are called "infants" that never saw light. This is exactly like babies that are aborted. This word (Heb. OLEL) always and without exception refers to human individuals and even grown men (cf. Hosea 13:16; Psalm 8:2; Joel 2:16).

Those passages don't state where life begins. I would think that at eight and a half months, it could be considered a valid human life. I wouldn't say that at three days, it is a valid human life.

It's like saying .. should we kill someone that's in coma?

A person in a coma has the capacity for consciousness, and their existence does not rely upon the cooperation of a mother.

Offtopic: I look up to you shredderbeam. You inspire me.
I've been around here for quite a while .. Let's say from the good old days..
But i've had some account problems.

Well, thank you. If you're having account problems, you can always PM me, or get me on MSN.

In what ways do rapes hapend then? Give me an example of a commen sittuation of some woman being raped which does not include stupidity from her side. I have never said that such policy should be used towards rape victims.

A woman is at a party with some close friends, when one of her friends goes to get a drink for them both. A man slips some rophynol (a drug that causes memory loss and unconsciousness) into the woman's drink while the friend isn't looking. The drink is brought back to the woman, she drinks it, is assisted into another room by the man, and raped.

Your not saving anyones life or making it better, so why do you have to abort!

Does a woman have to justify what they do with their own body to the government?

Once some one has chosen to get pregnant, your accepting the fact that you will temporarily lose some of your rights. A pregnant woman is not allowed to do the same things as some woman not being pregnant.

First, not everybody chooses to get pregnant. Second, if you do choose, you don't actually lose any rights.

And once you have a life inside of you, your body is no longer "yours", but also her/his, and the government has to take care of that life if your not willing to do that.

At a point, I would agree, but can you say the same for a clump of cells that is not even capable of consciousness yet?

 

[jaamal]

It doesn't always take stupidity to raped... I have been raped and I am a man and it is not as great as all men would guess, and I look back at the moment and I don't really see how I could ave prevented it from happening.

 

[Krypton6]

A woman is at a party with some close friends, when one of her friends goes to get a drink for them both. A man slips some rophynol (a drug that causes memory loss and unconsciousness) into the woman's drink while the friend isn't looking. The drink is brought back to the woman, she drinks it, is assisted into another room by the man, and raped.

Thats purely her own stupidity, since she CHOSE to take part of that party and environment.

Does a woman have to justify what they do with their own body to the government?

When being pregnant your body is no longer only "yours".
So you believe that suicide should be legal ?

First, not everybody chooses to get pregnant. Second, if you do choose, you don't actually lose any rights

Not everybody choses but nearly in all sittuations people are taking the risks and end up pregnant.
So a pregnant woman is allowed to skyjump, or be doing any form of activity putting the child in danger?

At a point, I would agree, but can you say the same for a clump of cells that is not even capable of consciousness yet?

Wether its 1/100.000.000 of a cell, if such thing existed would not make a difrence. Leaving that cell alone and letting nature do its thing will turn that 1 cell into billions, killing the cell and life for no reason at all should be considered as murder.

 

[Krypton6]

It doesn't always take stupidity to raped... I have been raped and I am a man and it is not as great as all men would guess, and I look back at the moment and I don't really see how I could ave prevented it from happening.

Could you tell me what hapend?

 

[the_wippit]

conceived a "son" Lk 1:36; Acts 7:29
the bible says that she conceived a SON, that at that very moment when she conceived it was indeed a son

 

[jaamal]

Could you tell me what hapend?

If it will help you understand sure...

I spilt up with my girlfriend and didn't talk to her for a while, she had been looking for me to try to get back together, I was at a party and my cousin opens the door with out looking through the peep-hole. She comes in and she kicks the girl out I was talking to and I run out the bathroom and try to reason with her and see spray me with some mace, which spread though the whole apartment which had everyone crying since it was a small area. I then brought my hands to my face and she hit me 4 times and knocked be down. I don't know what she hit me with, but it was something metal. She then quickly raped me and left out the front door due to the fact that the mace spread through the house nobody was paying attention. While I was left on the floor.

 

[Krypton6]

If it will help you understand sure...

I spilt up with my girlfriend and didn't talk to her for a while, she had been looking for me to try to get back together, I was at a party and my cousin opens the door with out looking through the peep-hole. She comes in and she kicks the girl out I was talking to and I run out the bathroom and try to reason with her and see spray me with some mace, which spread though the whole apartment which had everyone crying since it was a small area. I then brought my hands to my face and she hit me 4 times and knocked be down. I don't know what she hit me with, but it was something metal. She then quickly raped me and left out the front door due to the fact that the mace spread through the house nobody was paying attention. While I was left on the floor.

Im sorry on your ways, but it is part of your own fault.You chose to have a girlfriend, you werent forced. No girlfriend means no such scene.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Im sorry on your ways, but it is part of your own fault.You chose to have a girlfriend, you werent forced. No girlfriend means no such scene.

With that kind of logic, you could blame ANYBODY who has EVER gotten raped for the situation.

"Oh, you shouldn't be so good-looking". It's CLEARLY your fault."

 

[jaamal]

Im sorry on your ways, but it is part of your own fault.You chose to have a girlfriend, you werent forced. No girlfriend means no such scene.

Thats a dumb way to view that as my fault, I could say that I read your post and it changed my life and I wanted to spend time with someone no matter what, so I met her, and I could blame it on you... Thats a terrible way to look at life you should think about stuff more.

Any boy can come up with an excuse to blame someone else, but only a man can accept blame even if it isn't there fault.

 

[Krypton6]

Thats a dumb way to view that as my fault, I could say that I read your post and it changed my life and I wanted to spend time with someone no matter what, so I met her, and I could blame it on you... Thats a terrible way to look at life you should think about stuff more.

Any boy can come up with an excuse to blame someone else, but only a man can accept blame even if it isn't there fault.

Its not your fault, but you could have avoided it.

You could not blame me if had written something which you may have bin effected by, and as a result of that being raped.
You could have thought better.

With that kind of logic, you could blame ANYBODY who has EVER gotten raped for the situation.

"Oh, you shouldn't be so good-looking". It's CLEARLY your fault."

No you couldnt.

You cant blame some one for looking good. Looking good is a gift that you have bin created with, therefor blaming some one for being to good looking is wrong, and is not something that I am doing. Its not like you can chose to be ugly.

You cant blame EVERYONE.
If your walking down the street in daylight, and suddenly a van comes, opens the doors, and 2 big guys rush out and lift you inside of the van.
That is not something that you could have controled, cuz walking down the street in daylight is something that we all do, having girlfriends and vice verca is not.

 

[jaamal]

Its not your fault, but you could have avoided it.

You could not blame me if had written something which you may have bin effected by, and as a result of that being raped.
You could have thought better.



No you couldnt.

You cant blame some one for looking good. Looking good is a gift that you have bin created with, therefor blaming some one for being to good looking is wrong, and is not something that I am doing. Its not like you can chose to be ugly.

You cant blame EVERYONE.
If your walking down the street in daylight, and suddenly a van comes, opens the doors, and 2 big guys rush out and lift you inside of the van.
That is not something that you could have controled, cuz walking down the street in daylight is something that we all do, having girlfriends and vice verca is not.

We were just giving examples of how simple minded you are acting.

 

[Krypton6]

I am clear of that, but the examples you gave me could not back up your opinions or even disprove mine, abd I think I made that clear.

I dont think im simple minded, but more logical minded.

 

[jaamal]

Logic is what a normal person would do, I was logically to want to find a partner, Was I not? Or is reproduction not logical.

 

[Krypton6]

And by "normal" I supose you believe that the western people are the "normal" ones.

There are alot of ways to safely find a partner, yours clearly wasent one of them, and any idiot would know that.

A need for reproduction is not logic at your age and especially not in your society, and I doubt thats actully what you were looking for.

Perhaps you should have known your girl better before getting closer to her.

 

[jaamal]

I knew her for 5 years... Also we were very close.And no I meant normal as a human race

 

[Krypton6]

I knew her for 5 years... Also we were very close.And no I meant normal as a human race

Aperantly the 5 years were not enough, and you didnt know much about her afterall.

Its only in the west that teens have lovers, in many other countries around the globe, your parents and her parents must be present in the house for you to talk to the girl you are interested in.
It does not mean that the people arent thinking of having or dont want a girl/boyfriend, but they logically realise that it does no good for them but instead could start conflicts, which is why they chose not to have one.

Having lovers is something that belongs to the west which really isnt a big part of the world, so I think you were talking about the western society afterall.

 

[Shredderbeam]

Its not your fault, but you could have avoided it.

You could not blame me if had written something which you may have bin effected by, and as a result of that being raped.
You could have thought better.



No you couldnt.

You cant blame some one for looking good. Looking good is a gift that you have bin created with, therefor blaming some one for being to good looking is wrong, and is not something that I am doing. Its not like you can chose to be ugly.

You cant blame EVERYONE.
If your walking down the street in daylight, and suddenly a van comes, opens the doors, and 2 big guys rush out and lift you inside of the van.
That is not something that you could have controled, cuz walking down the street in daylight is something that we all do, having girlfriends and vice verca is not.

The situation with the van happens to some people, you know.

You just seem determined to place some form of blame on everybody, no matter how shifty.

Its only in the west that teens have lovers, in many other countries around the globe, your parents and her parents must be present in the house for you to talk to the girl you are interested in.
It does not mean that the people arent thinking of having or dont want a girl/boyfriend, but they logically realise that it does no good for them but instead could start conflicts, which is why they chose not to have one.

Having lovers is something that belongs to the west which really isnt a big part of the world, so I think you were talking about the western society afterall.

Yes, in the West, we realize that love is something that cannot be "arranged", that people have rights beyond what their parents want, and that people are free.