Feedback

[Emperor Nero]

Many of the admins are in the IRC quite a lot. Matthew also pops by now and then for a couple hours. We are different than other forums. We don't promote admins willy nilly as we have had far too many admin issues over the years. We want admins we can trust and count on so if they have real life stuff that is taking up their time we allow that. I know it's nice to be able to get in touch with an admin but 99% of the time a global will be just fine.

But consider the IRC for second - Unofficial Sythe IRC. Last time I was in IRC there wasn't many people there and it isn't even technically a part of Sythe. The shoutbox at FFX is at the top of the page where everyone can see it. Then you are trying to refute things that I never even said. I never said promote more admins I like our current admins they're all pretty cool people. My argument is that they should lead the community and be more visible or let us know what is going on as a community. I am done, as it has become pointless to argue anymore. Shouting into deaf ears is a pointless endeavor, and I am not the only one who has pointed out that everyone has their ears closed to what they don't want to hear.

 

[x339]

First off, thank you for finally acknowledging this thread, I hope we can now go somewhere with it.

This is utterly untrue. First and foremost, I'd like to establish that despite working full-time, FireZ is more active than any administrator I remember, other than possibly Pen at the beginning his adminship. I have access to Control Panel logs, and I can honestly say that as far as the statement than "other than finn, no other admin has been overwhelmingly active" is absurd.

I admit that I may have not used the best example or wording on this one. Admins are active in the sense that is required in their current job description. They hand out the TWCs, they help with important decisions, etc., but I feel that it should be more than that. They should be heavily involved with the community, and should be working for the progression and growth of sythe, because they are the leaders. They are in charge, they are the ones with the power to do that.

In addition, my job by definition entails a lot of free time; I am paid simply for being available for help; if nothing comes up, I can use that time to browse Sythe, which I do.

I am well aware what you are required to do, and I know that you do it. I would just like to note that if I was being paid, I would do my best to excel at the job and be proactive instead of reactive, and not wait for something to come up. But I guess that's just me...

Again, utterly untrue. Whenever a request for something that a general admin does not have access to is forwarded to me, I handle it for them. Likewise, whenever I need something done requiring filesystem or database access, I escalate it as well, and it is handled as fast as possible.

Again another thing I wasn't completely informed with. I admit I was wrong about the not having the proper permissions thing, but I was just going off of what I knew at the time. However, general admins not having the ability to give ranks is a bit strange in my opinion.

The Admin Control Panel has areas that allow writing arbitrary PHP code, SQL queries, and the ability to edit HTML anywhere on the site, for any style. If you read the vBulletin manual, you'd see that they recommend forum owners against giving these permissions to any other administrators, so the fact that anyone other than Sythe can control these areas is exceptional on its own.

See above ^

This is another attempt at distorting the way the admin structure works to make it seem like there is a huge problem and a backlog of requests to handle that Sythe, Matthew and myself are too busy to deal with. There isn't. Everything gets dealt with; access control is in place for the same reason that any workplace has clearance levels - some people are more qualified to handle things that are highly technical in nature because used incorrectly, they might not have the intended results.

Again see above ^

Again, taking advantage of the fact that most people don't understand technical details about vBulletin. In order to handle technical tasks, you need access to the Admin Control Panel. vBulletin doesn't know the difference between a "Tech admin" and a "General admin"; there is only one usergroup for administrators, and creating a new usergroup won't work either, because the usergroupid is hardcoded into vBulletin files.

My statement that you responded to with this was based on how people perceive having more admins, but again see above. You seemed to have skipped the majority of what I was saying and just focused on the permissions aspect of things..

IP banning, administering TwC ranks, and posting staff promotion polls are what general admins should be doing (incidentally, this is the same task they had even when Finn was an admin). If previous administrators chose to be outgoing and "post around more", great for them. No one is expected to do that to be a competent administrator.

Here we go again, no one is expected to do anything, no one is required to do anything. Well that's what I am trying to change. I believe we should be expecting a lot more out of our admins, and they should expect more from themselves. They should be going above and beyond what they are simply "required" to do to really get involved and help the community, and sythe.org as a whole.

Custom plugins will wait until vBulletin 4 comes out. The APIs between the two versions are markedly different, and putting in effort now would require fundamental rewrites once the upgrade is made

First you say that ^, that we have to wait until VB4 for upgrades

Also, powerbot.org's forums opened in 2009, when vBulletin 4 was current. Sythe.org upgraded to vBulletin when vBulletin 3.6 was current.

If you think Sythe.org is the only forum stuck using a dated version of vBulletin, these are the top vBulletin sites according to Big-Boards rankings:

http://rankings.big-boards.com/?filter=vBulletin,all

Try visiting the top sites listed here - NONE of them are on vB4. Hell, SomethingAwful, one of the largest and best-known sites on the Internet, still uses vBulletin 2.2.9


Of course vBulletin.com will always upgrade to the latest version of their own software, because doing anything else would look bad for business. Aside from them, can you name any sites anywhere near (or larger than) the size of Sythe.org that have upgraded from vB3 to vB4? I don't think you understand the technical consequences associated with upgrading a forum this size. There will certainly be data loss, for one thing. The fact that we are making an effort to upgrade is exceptional on its own. We have a dev site set up, and lots of progress has been made by myself and Matthew. The upgrade is waiting largely on Sythe, who is currently away with patchy internet access - there are aspects of the site that only he can control and which need to be prepared for vBulletin 4.

And then you say this ^. Kind of contradicting. We have to wait until VB4 for new plugins and updates, yet you don't think upgrading to VB4 is important. So you would rather just have us sit here and have nothing happen? No updating, no upgrading?

To close, I'd also like to point out that a replica similar feedback thread was posted last December, to which I posted my own thread responding to on behalf of the administration (http://www.sythe.org/showthread.php?t=1305078), and you, x339, posted this:

That shows that I agreed that it cleared confusion, as it did. It helps people understand the roles that the admins are given. Now I am telling you I don't agree with those roles necessarily, and so I guess I don't really understand the need to add that in.

 

[Govind]

I'd like to clarify that when I was talking about being available for help, I was talking about my IRL job, not Sythe.

My statement that you responded to with this was based on how people perceive having more admins, but again see above. You seemed to have skipped the majority of what I was saying and just focused on the permissions aspect of things..

If there's something specific you want me to address, quote it from your OP. I feel I've replied to everything pertinent and addressed the main message behind your post, but if you disagree, elaborate.

Here we go again, no one is expected to do anything, no one is required to do anything. Well that's what I am trying to change. I believe we should be expecting a lot more out of our admins, and they should expect more from themselves. They should be going above and beyond what they are simply "required" to do to really get involved and help the community, and sythe.org as a whole.

If an admin chooses to be extroverted and post around frequently, that's great.

If our current admins don't seem to do that, then, frankly, too bad. Time and again it's been proven that we can't expand the ranks too liberally. Why do we end up recycling the same old admins again and again? Because we can trust them. We've had admins who seemed perfectly trustworthy at first, who later used their rank to get away with scamming, helping Sigex, corruption, and embezzlement, and others who were just bad at what they did and ended up causing huge problems for the site.

We are very picky as to who our admins should be for this reason. Extroverted people are nice, but so are reliable, trustworthy administrators.

First you say that ^, that we have to wait until VB4 for upgrades



And then you say this ^. Kind of contradicting. We have to wait until VB4 for new plugins and updates, yet you don't think upgrading to VB4 is important. So you would rather just have us sit here and have nothing happen? No updating, no upgrading?

No. I'm saying that the fact that we are making an effort to upgrade to vB4 is a good thing, as not many other forums our size have the resources necessary for such a move, so the fact that suggestions for major plugins are generally not being considered right now is because of that, and the wait for vB4 is in my opinion, understandable as well.

That shows that I agreed that it cleared confusion, as it did. It helps people understand the roles that the admins our given. Now I am telling you I don't agree with those roles necessarily, and so I guess I don't really understand the need to add that in.

Fair enough.

 

[x339]

I'd like to clarify that when I was talking about being available for help, I was talking about my IRL job, not Sythe.

Still, being proactive is better than reactive.

If there's something specific you want me to address, quote it from your OP. I feel I've replied to everything pertinent and addressed the main message behind your post, but if you disagree, elaborate.

How about the need for sythe.org to expand not only the market we have, but other markets as well. Instead of just being happy with the RS market, we should be working on growing others such as D3, WoW, etc.

If an admin chooses to be extroverted and post around frequently, that's great.

If our current admins don't seem to do that, then, frankly, too bad. Time and again it's been proven that we can't expand the ranks too liberally. Why do we end up recycling the same old admins again and again? Because we can trust them. We've had admins who seemed perfectly trustworthy at first, who later used their rank to get away with scamming, helping Sigex, corruption, and embezzlement, and others who were just bad at what they did and ended up causing huge problems for the site.

We are very picky as to who our admins should be for this reason. Extroverted people are nice, but so are reliable, trustworthy administrators.

That is disappointing. So they are trustworthy, and therefore that's all they need to maintain the job? I am not saying anyone should be demoted, but I am saying they should step it up. Why are you or any of the admins still on sythe? I'd hope it's because you like the site, and you want to see it continue running. If that is true then why aren't you all getting more involved and keeping things going? Why aren't you all trying to be innovative and coming up with new ideas and new things to do? Why aren't you all excelling at your jobs and really making the most of it? Have you given up hope? Have you gotten bored of being an admin?

No. I'm saying that the fact that we are making an effort to upgrade to vB4 is a good thing, as not many other forums our size have the resources necessary for such a move, so the fact that suggestions for major plugins are generally not being considered right now is because of that, and the wait for vB4 is in my opinion, understandable as well.

Fair enough.

 

[Frank0929]

No. I'm saying that the fact that we are making an effort to upgrade to vB4 is a good thing, as not many other forums our size have the resources necessary for such a move, so the fact that suggestions for major plugins are generally not being considered right now is because of that, and the wait for vB4 is in my opinion, understandable as well.

Can you elaborate? Far as I know forums of this size with advertisement generally generate $2,000+ a month. Did you mean they're missing techies?

 

[Govind]

Can you elaborate? Far as I know forums of this size with advertisement generally generate $2,000+ a month. Did you mean they're missing techies?

Not money. Effort. We only have 3 tech people, and we're all volunteers.

 

[Govind]

That is disappointing. So they are trustworthy, and therefore that's all they need to maintain the job? I am not saying anyone should be demoted, but I am saying they should step it up. Why are you or any of the admins still on sythe? I'd hope it's because you like the site, and you want to see it continue running. If that is true then why aren't you all getting more involved and keeping things going? Why aren't you all trying to be innovative and coming up with new ideas and new things to do? Why aren't you all excelling at your jobs and really making the most of it? Have you given up hope? Have you gotten bored of being an admin?

I feel we fundamentally disagree here, and we can't make progress on this point. I don't think caring about the site's well being necessarily means being actively involved in the community on a day-to-day basis when personal life intervenes.

 

[SuF]

I'm not one to stir up controversy, but I've been monitoring this fiasco and I feel the need to chime in here.

What is accomplished by all the hostility from staff I've been seeing here? Are suggestions not feedback? When you leave negative feedback about something, you're indicating it should be changed, and you'd like your appeal to be considered. By taking this route you fail to recognize (or remain willfully ignorant) that, if the OP were to instead just post a list of complaints without solutions, we would be far less productive in here. Sythe.org is not an old couple bickering; it is capable of changing for the better.

Plugging your ears, shouting "lalalala" and shutting down people who are trying to improve the forums is completely moronic. It needs to stop.

My 'generalization' applies to anyone that's engaged in this closing drama. In the interest of productivity you need to keep the thread open for discussion, not censor it. If anyone on staff closes feedback threads when they don't like the feedback (i.e. it's stupid) then frankly they need to stop going into the feedback forum and let people that are more emotionally stable handle it.

My post was due to the fact x339 went against the staffs wishes multiple times after being told to stop each time. I was going to ban him to get the message across but since he chose to give a little (suggestions thread) I thought I'd let his thread have one more shot.

Now about the list. I wanted one because I couldn't remember everything he was suggesting and rereading the wall every time I wanted to make a point or post seemed very unpleasant. I just wanted a way to quickly remind people of what he was saying so they could tie it all together and remember what was said. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) I was merely suggesting he do this instead of saying "DO THIS OR ELSE HAGGRAGHFGASG". Now his first thread then got so out of hand with everyone and their mother posting about some stupid fucking list (which I really didn't care since I made my own dem it) and it was essentially a bash fest of everyone's mother and their pet turtle. That's why FireZ locked it. It was going no where and it had turned into utter crap. Oh and half the posts were about suggestions that x339 didn't even make, which again is why I said this is a feedback forum. Now, back on topic.

But consider the IRC for second - Unofficial Sythe IRC. Last time I was in IRC there wasn't many people there and it isn't even technically a part of Sythe. The shoutbox at FFX is at the top of the page where everyone can see it. Then you are trying to refute things that I never even said. I never said promote more admins I like our current admins they're all pretty cool people. My argument is that they should lead the community and be more visible or let us know what is going on as a community. I am done, as it has become pointless to argue anymore. Shouting into deaf ears is a pointless endeavor, and I am not the only one who has pointed out that everyone has their ears closed to what they don't want to hear.

The IRC is a hangout for Sythe people. Whether or not its unofficial means nothing. It is where a large number of staff and users go and if you wanna hang out with us go ahead and join and there is almost always someone in there.

I am also sick and tired of everyone saying we aren't listening to you. You aren't listening to us. This is a two way street. I know exactly what you are saying. I am simply saying they are active enough and thus I disagree with the basic premise of your feedback. Yes it would be great if we had uber active admins. Simple fact of the matter is they can't all be super active all the time. If we demoted them every time they were a bit inactive due to their lives we would be promoting and demoting admins every month or two. That's just not feasible. Our admins are great and as I said we take our time in selecting them. Since we don't like having to try out new admins, for the risk of it going very badly, we allow our admins to take breaks and disappear for reasonable amounts of time if they have other priorities. You can either accept this or accept that we need to promote more admins more frequently and open ourselves up for more mistakes, less unified staff team, corruption, scamming, annoyed admins since they feel like they can't take a break for a bit without losing their post, ect.

And I still don't understand why it must be admins who run community things. Sythe Monthly is done every month by a normal member. Contests have been being run by staff and normal members. Our unofficial IRC is owned by a user and run by a staff member. I honestly have no idea what's so special about an admin running a contest or what not.

 

[x339]

I feel we fundamentally disagree here, and we can't make progress on this point. I don't think caring about the site's well being necessarily means being actively involved in the community on a day-to-day basis when personal life intervenes.

Well then it seems like something Richard should decide upon.

 

Well then it seems like something Richard should decide upon.

I'm 100% sure that if Richard had any doubts, he'd take it up with us. I'm not trying to justify not posting often, but I work a 9-5 job and have various social commitments outside of work. I still sit and read through and reply to PMs whenever I can, as well as contribute to staff lounge discussion. I do try and post in threads I find interesting and personally, I think I post quite regularly.

I really didn't want to get involved with this thread after the way I was treated by you last time I was in IRC, but alas, here I am.

 

[x339]

I'm 100% sure that if Richard had any doubts, he'd take it up with us. I'm not trying to justify not posting often, but I work a 9-5 job and have various social commitments outside of work. I still sit and read through and reply to PMs whenever I can, as well as contribute to staff lounge discussion. I do try and post in threads I find interesting and personally, I think I post quite regularly.

I really didn't want to get involved with this thread after the way I was treated by you last time I was in IRC, but alas, here I am.

First off, I've apologized for the way I acted in the IRC and I don't think it should be associated with how we go about this thread.

Secondly, as I have said, I am not trying to get admin's to post more. Although that would be nice, it is not as of importance as actually working to progress sythe in general. It's not how many posts you have that matters, it's what you do with them that does. It's also what you do with your abilities as admin as well. Not necessarily permissions, but the power and the influence to make change.

And I hope that what I am saying Richard will take into consideration, and if he disagrees with my points, then so be it, but I would rather hear it from him them people who claim to know what he is thinking.

 

First off, I've apologized for the way I acted in the IRC and I don't think it should be associated with how we go about this thread.

Secondly, as I have said, I am not trying to get admin's to post more. Although that would be nice, it is not as of importance as actually working to progress sythe in general. It's not how many posts you have that matters, it's what you do with them that does. It's also what you do with your abilities as admin as well. Not necessarily permissions, but the power and the influence to make change.

And I hope that what I am saying Richard will take into consideration, and if he disagrees with my points, then so be it, but I would rather hear it from him them people who claim to know what he is thinking.

There's really a limit to the amount we can do. None of us have the privileges to add new things to the site and with Matthew and Sythe being so busy, it's a lengthy process to get new things added and approved.

I do agree that we need to update the site's prehistoric functionality and give ourselves the edge over our competitors, but unfortunately it's easier said than done.

 

[x339]

There's really a limit to the amount we can do. None of us have the privileges to add new things to the site and with Matthew and Sythe being so busy, it's a lengthy process to get new things added and approved.

I do agree that we need to update the site's prehistoric functionality and give ourselves the edge over our competitors, but unfortunately it's easier said than done.

I understand that things such as forum tech and functionality are out of your control, but I am glad that you would like to see progress in that area. It should be that way for all the areas, which is something the general admins can influence. Thinking of ways to expand on other markets is another one of these areas. One of these ways is advertising, and although you may not be able to make advertisements yourself, you are the ones who are going to have the best chance at voicing opinions and ideas to Richard. For example Travis posted a suggestion here about referrals. If something like that was backed and worked out by the admins, then there is an infinitely higher chance it would become a reality. And it doesn't stop there. You should be constantly thinking, testing, trying, and working towards ways to grow sythe. We as normal users, and even the other staff can only do so much, for example I am doing what I can by posting this thread (and fighting adamantly for it haha), which leaves it up to you to really get in there and do what you can. That is the only way we can truly accomplish success and growth.

 

I understand that things such as forum tech and functionality are out of your control, but I am glad that you would like to see progress in that area. It should be that way for all the areas, which is something the general admins can influence. Thinking of ways to expand on other markets is another one of these areas. One of these ways is advertising, and although you may not be able to make advertisements yourself, you are the ones who are going to have the best chance at voicing opinions and ideas to Richard. For example Travis posted a suggestion here about referrals. If something like that was backed and worked out by the admins, then there is an infinitely higher chance it would become a reality. And it doesn't stop there. You should be constantly thinking, testing, trying, and working towards ways to grow sythe. We as normal users, and even the other staff can only do so much, for example I am doing what I can by posting this thread (and fighting adamantly for it haha), which leaves it up to you to really get in there and do what you can. That is the only way we can truly accomplish success and growth.

My suggestions usually fall on deaf ears.

 

[x339]

My suggestions usually fall on deaf ears.

I hardly think your powerless to do what I've suggested.

 

I hardly think your powerless to do what I've suggested.

You'd be very surprised!

 

[x339]

You'd be very surprised!

You have a much higher authority, and much more influence as an admin then anyone below you does. If something needed to be done, it is you or one of the general admins that has the best chance at accomplishing it. It's more then just how seriously your suggestions are taken, but then perhaps it's Richard who would benefit most from this thread.

 

You have a much higher authority, and much more influence as an admin then anyone below you does. If something needed to be done, it is you or one of the general admins that has the best chance at accomplishing it. It's more then just how seriously your suggestions are taken, but then perhaps it's Richard who would benefit most from this thread.

I do agree that Richard would benefit from this thread. It gets quite infuriating for me to make suggestions and just be told "no" pretty much every time. This site needs a decent amount of money pumped in to it for improvement, and that seems to be the only real issue.

 

[Punjabi3]

I do agree that Richard would benefit from this thread. It gets quite infuriating for me to make suggestions and just be told "no" pretty much every time. This site needs a decent amount of money pumped in to it for improvement, and that seems to be the only real issue.

Could always add more perks such as bigger pm space than 500 and other little things like name colouring for certain donation amounts, I believe that's how powerbot rakes in donations, and I'm sure many would simply donate for a bigger pm inbox. If money is an issue then we should add more perks for donations to promote them.

Also better donation methods would help with donations as well.

W/U, MoneyBookers, PA, Mail, pretty sure there are several other methods as well which would be safe.

 

[Emperor Nero]

I do agree that Richard would benefit from this thread. It gets quite infuriating for me to make suggestions and just be told "no" pretty much every time. This site needs a decent amount of money pumped in to it for improvement, and that seems to be the only real issue.

I thought that is where the donations and ad revenue went? Improvement and maintenance, ya know? Where does the money go if it isn't into improvement? We know the site doesn't generate no money, and if we improved the donation system we would be getting even more money. We can't just be breaking even.