Do We Have An infinite universe

[malakadang]

I don't see how you assume that if the universe contains infinites that it is infinite. Because that is like saying I have a number that has infinite decimal places so all numbers must have infinite decimal places or the inverse.

It's not saying that at all. Your example is a bit off because a number is a stand alone entity and doesn't concern itself with other numbers. As such you cannot say because this number has an infinite number of decimal places therefore the other numbers do. You can however say because the universe has an infinite object in it, therefore that universe must be infinite.

If there is an unlimited physical characteristic in the universe, how can the universe still be finite? Let's assume that there was an infinite number of coke tins on Earth, how can the universe possibly be finite since it contains those coke tins?

Though I suppose a full definition of infinite must be obtained.

Unlimited; neverending.

 

[Divine_God]

It's not saying that at all. Your example is a bit off because a number is a stand alone entity and doesn't concern itself with other numbers. As such you cannot say because this number has an infinite number of decimal places therefore the other numbers do. You can however say because the universe has an infinite object in it, therefore that universe must be infinite.

If there is an unlimited physical characteristic in the universe, how can the universe still be finite? Let's assume that there was an infinite number of coke tins on Earth, how can the universe possibly be finite since it contains those coke tins?

Unlimited; neverending.

I understand your reasoning. Here's one some people may understand better.

If a sea goes on forever, then we must conclude there is an unlimited amount of fish in the sea, as since it goes on forever, then there are going to eventually be fish every here and there meaning infinite fish.



It wouldn't be too far off to say that the universe does end and space time stops existing, but beyond the point of space time what exists? If you say nothing, then we can classify this nothingness as something, meaning an infinite of something.

 

[blazinfasstt]

I understand your reasoning. Here's one some people may understand better.

If a sea goes on forever, then we must conclude there is an unlimited amount of fish in the sea, as since it goes on forever, then there are going to eventually be fish every here and there meaning infinite fish.



It wouldn't be too far off to say that the universe does end and space time stops existing, but beyond the point of space time what exists? If you say nothing, then we can classify this nothingness as something, meaning an infinite of something.

again, i do not see why there needs to be infinite matter if there is infinite space....

 

[Emperor Nero]

again, i do not see why there needs to be infinite matter if there is infinite space....

My original point is that there can't be infinite matter because when the Big Bang occurred a finite amount of atoms expanded out and with a finite amount of atoms then you will only end up with a finite amount of matter. There may be infinite space but there will never be infinite matter, because matter is neither created nor destroyed in accordance to the laws of physics.

 

[blazinfasstt]

My original point is that there can't be infinite matter because when the Big Bang occurred a finite amount of atoms expanded out and with a finite amount of atoms then you will only end up with a finite amount of matter. There may be infinite space but there will never be infinite matter, because matter is neither created nor destroyed in accordance to the laws of physics.

so.... what was that whole thing about needing infinite matter for infinite space then?

btw, i agree.

 

[Divine_God]

so.... what was that whole thing about needing infinite matter for infinite space then?

btw, i agree.

I agree.

I don't think that there is infinite matter, but do believe in infinite space.

 

[Emperor Nero]

But Malak is arguing that to have infinite space you must also have infinite matter, but space and matter aren't linked. Maybe infinite mass because empty space has mass, but not matter.

 

[blazinfasstt]

But Malak is arguing that to have infinite space you must also have infinite matter, but space and matter aren't linked. Maybe infinite mass because empty space has mass, but not matter.

i dont argue with malak anymore

he tried making fun of me for using a words webster definition to win an argument

if you want to see, just look at the "are stippers degraded" thread.

also, he likes to lie a lot, especially in irc.

 

[Emperor Nero]

i dont argue with malak anymore

he tried making fun of me for using a words webster definition to win an argument

if you want to see, just look at the "are stippers degraded" thread.

also, he likes to lie a lot, especially in irc.

If there was infinite ocean, as divine said, it would be logical that there would be infinite fish because fish are reproductive organisms. Matter does not reproduce or replicate because a basic law of physics is that matter is not created or destroyed.

 

[blazinfasstt]

If there was infinite ocean, as divine said, it would be logical that there would be infinite fish because fish are reproductive organisms. Matter does not reproduce or replicate because a basic law of physics is that matter is not created or destroyed.

able to reproduce & replicate =/= infinite


ex. drop 2 fish into an empty infinite ocean
come back 1000 years later after they have "reproduced and replicated"

will there be infinite fish?

 

[Herman Li]

For there to be infinite mass there must be infinite space.
For there to be infinite mass and space there must be infinite time.

 

[blazinfasstt]

For there to be infinite mass and space there must be infinite time.

um.... why???

 

[Herman Li]

Infinite mass cannot accumulate in a finite amount of time nor in a finite space.

 

[blazinfasstt]

Infinite mass cannot accumulate in a finite amount of time nor in a finite space.

JESUS CHRIST

we are not talking about an infinite amount of mass being created.
we are talking about an infinite amount of mass being able to exist without an infinite amount of time.

also, since no matter can be created or destroyed, how would "mass accumulate" ?

you make me want to smash my head against a wall.


before you carry on with your theory, tell me:

how would an infinite amount of mass accumulate??? how do we know when there is an infinite amount of mass that has accumulated?

see how stupid this sounds now?










taking "an infinite amount of mass accumulating" out of it:

can infinite mass exist in infinite space for 20 minutes?
what about an instant?

 

[Emperor Nero]

Infinite mass cannot accumulate in a finite amount of time nor in a finite space.

I understand what you are saying, but the argument that I was in was infinite matter and for a universe to be infinite it would be have to infinite in all respects including matter - which is impossible.

also, since no matter can be created or destroyed, how would "mass accumulate" ?

To answer your question 'empty' space has mass. Don't ask me why, or how, but just accept that it does. We know this because of Einstein's theory of General Relativity. (Or maybe it was special, I can't quite remember. Correct me here if I am wrong.)

 

[Herman Li]

JESUS CHRIST

LORD VISHNU

we are not talking about an infinite amount of mass being created.

Neither was I.

we are talking about an infinite amount of mass being able to exist without an infinite amount of time.

Cool.

also, since no matter can be created or destroyed, how would "mass accumulate" ?

I don't know, I was just answering the question. You cannot have infinite mass if there is finite time and finite space.

you make me want to smash my head against a wall.

Cutie pie.

before you carry on with your theory,

Theory?

tell me:

how would an infinite amount of mass accumulate???

I don't know. That wasn't the question I was given originally. Ask the person was proposed the original question.

how do we know when there is an infinite amount of mass that has accumulated?

What does that have to do with anything? We can't measure infinite ANYTHING, because infinity cannot be measured.

see how stupid this sounds now?

I see how confusing you MAKE it sound, yes.

taking "an infinite amount of mass accumulating" out of it:

can infinite mass exist in infinite space for 20 minutes?
what about an instant?

It is a theoretical question, because, like you said, matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Therefore the answer is no. How can there be an infinite amount of space if there is finite time?

 

[malakadang]

I understand your reasoning. Here's one some people may understand better.

If a sea goes on forever, then we must conclude there is an unlimited amount of fish in the sea, as since it goes on forever, then there are going to eventually be fish every here and there meaning infinite fish.

It wouldn't be too far off to say that the universe does end and space time stops existing, but beyond the point of space time what exists? If you say nothing, then we can classify this nothingness as something, meaning an infinite of something.

But if we classify nothing to be the lack of something, isn't that a contradiction to say that the lack of something is something? Perhaps nothing is just an abstraction as opposed to physical?

But Malak is arguing that to have infinite space you must also have infinite matter, but space and matter aren't linked. Maybe infinite mass because empty space has mass, but not matter.

I don't believe in infinite space, infinite mass, or infinite matter.

I do logically believe however that IF you have an infinite amount of matter, or mass, you must necessarily have an infinite amount of space to house the infinite amount of matter or mass. Unless I'm taking space in the wrong context, if you have an infinite number of bricks, how big a box would you need to house all those bricks? Certainly not a box with finite dimensions, but a box with infinite dimensions.

However, since we don't have an infinite number of a physical substance, therefore we don't have an infinite amount of matter or an infinite amount of mass. That means that we must have a finite amount of space as I don't believe you can say the sum of all finite things is an infinite thing.

 

[blazinfasstt]

But if we classify nothing to be the lack of something, isn't that a contradiction to say that the lack of something is something? Perhaps nothing is just an abstraction as opposed to physical?

I don't believe in infinite space, infinite mass, or infinite matter.

I do logically believe however that IF you have an infinite amount of matter, or mass, you must necessarily have an infinite amount of space to house the infinite amount of matter or mass. Unless I'm taking space in the wrong context, if you have an infinite number of bricks, how big a box would you need to house all those bricks? Certainly not a box with finite dimensions, but a box with infinite dimensions.

However, since we don't have an infinite number of a physical substance, therefore we don't have an infinite amount of matter or an infinite amount of mass. That means that we must have a finite amount of space as I don't believe you can say the sum of all finite things is an infinite thing.

wow, you miss the point completely

no one is saying that you need infinite space for infinite matter

if you read his post again, he argues that there doesnt need to be infinite matter for there to be infinite space.


wow.

 

[malakadang]

wow, you miss the point completely

no one is saying that you need infinite space for infinite matter

if you read his post again, he argues that there doesnt need to be infinite matter for there to be infinite space.


wow.

How can you have something infinite when the it's derived from the sum of all things finite? It's impossible.

Every tangible thing we have found to date has been both measurable and finite. If you want to call the totality if all existence a 'thing', why does it defy the rest and suddenly infinite?

 

[Maseratii]

nevermind.