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Do We Have An infinite universe

Heidy
Sythe's 10th Anniversary
The universe is finite, because the big bang created a certain amount of matter. That matter is constantly moving away from the central point where the big bang occurred. To be truly infinite the universe would have to be constantly creating new matter. it may be infinitely distant from one 'side' to the other but that is in spacial dimensions and that doesn't actually define what an infinite universe would be. Infinity is an interesting concept as it is so large that it is innumerable by the human conception.

Though I do agree with the multiverse theory, but I disagree with what Ivy says. The events of Star Wars or LoTR won't be playing out in another universe. The multiverse is just a collection of universes in which all probabilities are accounted for. Take a die for instance, you cast this die and it lands on 2 well in another universe it would land on 1 and another 3 until all possibilities of that die are counted for.
 
If you think the monkey randomly producing Hamlet is far-fetched, think about a jumble of random elements condensing into a gaseous form that just-so-happens to be far enough away from the nearest star to condense into a planet whose position, elemental composition, and orietntation produces a seasonal climate which is just enough to foster the production of amino acids and other organic chemicals; and those amino acids just so happen to conglomerate in a way to form the massively complex DNA molecule; and this DNA molecule meets up with enzymes and proteins which are just perfect for replication; and the body which encompassed these DNA and protein molecules managed, itself, to replicate; and four billion years later this one bacterium's far-distant descendant bore a human baby named William, and that human baby one day decided to write a story about a boy named Prince Hamlet, and this text just so happened to be important enough that one day, generations later, a particular scientist will hypothesize that a particular random monkey, given an infinite amount of time, can reproduce Hamlet in the exact manner of William Shakespeare did.

If the above scenario is possible, it's also possible for monkeys to randomly produce it as well. There are, after all, an infinite number of other possibilities which have also happened, as well.
 
Nobody knows, never were able to travel that far, I would like to eventually find the REAL answer though..
 
Emperor_Nero said:
The universe is finite, because the big bang created a certain amount of matter. That matter is constantly moving away from the central point where the big bang occurred. To be truly infinite the universe would have to be constantly creating new matter. it may be infinitely distant from one 'side' to the other but that is in spacial dimensions and that doesn't actually define what an infinite universe would be. Infinity is an interesting concept as it is so large that it is innumerable by the human conception.

Though I do agree with the multiverse theory, but I disagree with what Ivy says. The events of Star Wars or LoTR won't be playing out in another universe. The multiverse is just a collection of universes in which all probabilities are accounted for. Take a die for instance, you cast this die and it lands on 2 well in another universe it would land on 1 and another 3 until all possibilities of that die are counted for.
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If there is a finite area created by the big bang, what is on the other side of the "wall"? Or whatever you want to call the edge.
Edit: I thought matter couldn't be created or destroyed... Seriously wondering because all my science classes told me that and you said the big bang created a certain amount of matter.
 
Heidy
Sythe's 10th Anniversary
fball56 said:
If there is a finite area created by the big bang, what is on the other side of the "wall"? Or whatever you want to call the edge.
Edit: I thought matter couldn't be created or destroyed... Seriously wondering because all my science classes told me that and you said the big bang created a certain amount of matter.
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Did you even read what I said? The laws of physics breaks down at two points, past the edge of the universal bubble and at the point of the big bang. Well let me correct myself, 3 points because the laws do not appear to be the same at subatomic levels. The Big Bang created a finite mass not a finite area.
 
Emperor_Nero said:
The universe is finite, because the big bang created a certain amount of matter. That matter is constantly moving away from the central point where the big bang occurred. To be truly infinite the universe would have to be constantly creating new matter. it may be infinitely distant from one 'side' to the other but that is in spacial dimensions and that doesn't actually define what an infinite universe would be. Infinity is an interesting concept as it is so large that it is innumerable by the human conception.

Though I do agree with the multiverse theory, but I disagree with what Ivy says. The events of Star Wars or LoTR won't be playing out in another universe. The multiverse is just a collection of universes in which all probabilities are accounted for. Take a die for instance, you cast this die and it lands on 2 well in another universe it would land on 1 and another 3 until all possibilities of that die are counted for.
Click to expand...

How does what you said make me wrong? What you're saying sounds like a contradiction considering you yourself said that all possibilities will be carried out in a separate universe. The events of Star Wars and LoTR are possibilities. Our universe and the events taking place inside it would be side 1 of the die, and the LoTR universe would be side 2, etc. Any "impossibilities" you might point at in the LoTR / Star Wars universe could be corrected by the idea of each universe having its own laws of physics, completely separate from surrounding universes. To think that each universe operates under the exact same parameters would be foolish.

Also, you appear to misunderstand infinity on a critical level. Ever-expanding is not infinity. The universe would not have to constantly create new matter, because there would be an infinite amount of matter inside an infinite space. Simply being unable to reach the edge of something (the universe in this case) does not mean it is infinite (i.e. you can never reach the "edge" of Earth, because it is rounded)
 
Heidy
Sythe's 10th Anniversary
Ivy Bridge said:
How does what you said make me wrong? What you're saying sounds like a contradiction considering you yourself said that all possibilities will be carried out in a separate universe. The events of Star Wars and LoTR are possibilities. Our universe and the events taking place inside it would be side 1 of the die, and the LoTR universe would be side 2, etc. Any "impossibilities" you might point at in the LoTR / Star Wars universe could be corrected by the idea of each universe having its own laws of physics, completely separate from surrounding universes. To think that each universe operates under the exact same parameters would be foolish.

Also, you appear to misunderstand infinity on a critical level. Ever-expanding is not infinity. The universe would not have to constantly create new matter, because there would be an infinite amount of matter inside an infinite space. Your concept of infinity is flawed. Simply being unable to reach the edge of something (the universe in this case) does not mean it is infinite.
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I never said ever-expanding is infinity, I said that the big bang created a finite amount of matter. If the universe is infinite how can we theorize the mass of the universe? To be truly infinite it would have to have infinite matter, not just infinite distance because if it is just distant that doesn't mean that it is infinite in all respects. Now if the question was is the universe infinitely distant, that is a possibility but the question is: Is the universe infinite? The answer, in my opinion, is not in all respects because the big bang only created a finite amount of matter, and not infinite matter.

You obviously misread or misunderstood the basic premise of my argument.
 
I took the question as the universe being infinite in distance. Didn't think about matter or anything else.
 
Emperor_Nero said:
I never said ever-expanding is infinity, I said that the big bang created a finite amount of matter. If the universe is infinite how can we theorize the mass of the universe? To be truly infinite it would have to have infinite matter, not just infinite distance because if it is just distant that doesn't mean that it is infinite in all respects. Now if the question was is the universe infinitely distant, that is a possibility but the question is: Is the universe infinite? The answer, in my opinion, is not in all respects because the big bang only created a finite amount of matter, and not infinite matter.

You obviously misread or misunderstood the basic premise of my argument.
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I don't think the universe is infinite and I don't think most scientists in the field do either. We can only theorize the mass based on what we can see, which most scientists admit is very likely a tiny tiny fraction of the real picture. We're limited by time on this issue. We can only see about 13-14 billion light years away because that's roughly how old the universe is, so the light from other corners of the universe has yet to reach us. Whether the universe is infintely distant is a stretch at best when you consider all of the evidence suggesting the universe is expanding. How can the universe be expanding and infinite at the same time?

Still though the main point of my post was not whether or not the universe as we know it is infinite. You never explained how I was wrong about the events of LoTR / Star Wars / Halo taking place. I'm curious as to your reasoning..
 
Emperor_Nero said:
The universe is finite, because the big bang created a certain amount of matter. That matter is constantly moving away from the central point where the big bang occurred. To be truly infinite the universe would have to be constantly creating new matter. it may be infinitely distant from one 'side' to the other but that is in spacial dimensions and that doesn't actually define what an infinite universe would be. Infinity is an interesting concept as it is so large that it is innumerable by the human conception.
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You're a bit off, there. The big bang is the expansion of space, not an explosion; there is no center of the universe from which all matter is distancing itself.
 
Heidy
Sythe's 10th Anniversary
Jimmy said:
You're a bit off, there. The big bang is the expansion of space, not an explosion; there is no center of the universe from which all matter is distancing itself.
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It was an explosion or expansion from a singularity that sent out particles and that eventually cooled to make the light elements and slowly the heavier elements, but the point is that when it happened only a finite amount of matter was created. It's semantics that you are arguing.


Ivy Bridge said:
I don't think the universe is infinite and I don't think most scientists in the field do either. We can only theorize the mass based on what we can see, which most scientists admit is very likely a tiny tiny fraction of the real picture. We're limited by time on this issue. We can only see about 13-14 billion light years away because that's roughly how old the universe is, so the light from other corners of the universe has yet to reach us. Whether the universe is infintely distant is a stretch at best when you consider all of the evidence suggesting the universe is expanding. How can the universe be expanding and infinite at the same time?

Still though the main point of my post was not whether or not the universe as we know it is infinite. You never explained how I was wrong about the events of LoTR / Star Wars / Halo taking place. I'm curious as to your reasoning..
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I think we were arguing the same thing at each other, with different wordings.

I don't think it is possible because these are just creations of the human imagination and some of the parts of the works aren't actually possible. Though i will give you credit that if the laws of physics were different then there is that possibility, but I think these are more of imagined things than literal possibilities. Though i do agree that it is a scary that Hitler could be ruling the world.
 
They'res always a beginning and always a ending... we just dont know whats at the end/beginning of it... maybe hell is beginning and heaven is the end
 
Two Factor Authentication User
Gohan has AIDS
Each other universe is a variation on probability, to the slightest degree. In the next universe, I might have made a typo on this sentence, and that would have been enough to change it. Following this theory, that means that the vast majority of all other universes imploded or exploded because their physics are broken.
As for the monkey, the idea is, that if a monkey were to type endlessly at a keyboard, trying every combination of letters at least once, he would eventually hit the precise combination that Shakespeare wrote when he wrote the hamlet or whatever it was.
 
noamyoungerm said:
Each other universe is a variation on probability, to the slightest degree. In the next universe, I might have made a typo on this sentence, and that would have been enough to change it. Following this theory, that means that the vast majority of all other universes imploded or exploded because their physics are broken.
As for the monkey, the idea is, that if a monkey were to type endlessly at a keyboard, trying every combination of letters at least once, he would eventually hit the precise combination that Shakespeare wrote when he wrote the hamlet or whatever it was.
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So a monkey could also write the bible?
 
Two Factor Authentication User
Easter 2013
Doge
Community Participant
Look at it this way.

The sum of all finite things does not equal an infinite thing. 1+2+3 extended as far as you want WILL NEVER = infinity. This is because these numbers are finite, and you can't have something infinite when it's sum is consists of only finite parts.

With that being said, if you can list just one thing in this universe that is infinite, then the universe by that definition MUST be infinite. For example, infinite mass, infinite energy, an infinite number of coke tins. If you cannot list anything that is infinite then we can assume that no infinite things exist in this universe, and thus, the universe must be finite.
 
Heidy
Sythe's 10th Anniversary
malakadang said:
Look at it this way.

The sum of all finite things does not equal an infinite thing. 1+2+3 extended as far as you want WILL NEVER = infinity. This is because these numbers are finite, and you can't have something infinite when it's sum is consists of only finite parts.

With that being said, if you can list just one thing in this universe that is infinite, then the universe by that definition MUST be infinite. For example, infinite mass, infinite energy, an infinite number of coke tins. If you cannot list anything that is infinite then we can assume that no infinite things exist in this universe, and thus, the universe must be finite.
Click to expand...

I don't see how you assume that if the universe contains infinites that it is infinite. Because that is like saying I have a number that has infinite decimal places so all numbers must have infinite decimal places or the inverse. Though I suppose a full definition of infinite must be obtained.
 
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