Your thoughts about bots?

[iJava]

Ever heard of WoW Glider? They were a client that loaded WoW to RAM, and this is what the courts statement was:




For those who are saying TL;DR, basically it's stating that since the client that loads RS into it, additionally loads copies of Runescape into RAM, which is a violation of the DMCA if the owner of the copyright has not legally given the permission to be doing so.

You have to think about this logically :

Extract :

When a licensee exceeds the scope of the license granted by the copyright holder, the licensee is liable for infringement.

So basically when you break the license for the program provided by the copyright owner you break the law, as I said there is a license inside the gamepack and when you decrypt the client you are breaking this license. Loading into the RAM just means running the program.

 

[Hostblapstat]

Botting is part of Runescape tbh. I bot, I dont find anything wrong with botting, im way too lazy to actually skill by myself.

 

[Trent!]

You have to think about this logically :

Extract :

When a licensee exceeds the scope of the license granted by the copyright holder, the licensee is liable for infringement.

So basically when you break the license for the program provided by the copyright owner you break the law, as I said there is a license inside the gamepack and when you decrypt the client you are breaking this license. Loading into the RAM just means running the program.

The license for Copyright for RS follows the DMCA, meaning if you break the copyright, by loading RS into RAM through a client or program other than is approved by Jagex (such as Swiftkit), you are breaking the DMCA, not just ToS.

Swiftkit was nearly sued for violating the DMCA when they made their own client, and there was even bans early on for users of the Swiftkit client. The only reason their client is legal now is because they made a legal agreement with Jagex permitting them to do as they do. The same exact thing applies to other clients that loads RS into RAM, aka Powerbot, Epicbot, Rarebot, Runedream, etc, which DON'T have legal agreements with Jagex permitting them to use the copyrights as they have.

 

[Frontsight]

If botting wasn't available, I wouldn't play runescape. It does greatly affect the economy though, depending on supply and demand.

I actually agree with you here. I love the game and even did a few 99's legit but at some point it just becomes monotonous so I just bot while I'm sleeping to get stuff over with. I don't really care about the eco etc etc because its already fucked.

 

[iJava]

The license for Copyright for RS follows the DMCA, meaning if you break the copyright, by loading RS into RAM through a client or program other than is approved by Jagex (such as Swiftkit), you are breaking the DMCA, not just ToS.

Swiftkit was nearly sued for violating the DMCA when they made their own client, and there was even bans early on for users of the Swiftkit client. The only reason their client is legal now is because they made a legal agreement with Jagex permitting them to do as they do. The same exact thing applies to other clients that loads RS into RAM, aka Powerbot, Epicbot, Rarebot, Runedream, etc, which DON'T have legal agreements with Jagex permitting them to use the copyrights as they have.

You're not listening, you keep mentioning DMCA without realizing that not one license is the same therefore the terms in which you would break the DMCA agreement are different. If what you're saying WAS true then JaGeX would've shutdown every bot by now. The fact is you're wrong.

 

[Davidp123]

Bots make the game lose its fun, I remember playing for like days on end without being bored, then now I cant even wc without getting bored out of my mind.

 

[funnyboy82]

I dont have time to train on RS so I do it with bot.

 

[Trent!]

You're not listening, you keep mentioning DMCA without realizing that not one license is the same therefore the terms in which you would break the DMCA agreement are different. If what you're saying WAS true then JaGeX would've shutdown every bot by now. The fact is you're wrong.

I'm not talking about licenses. The fact of the matter is that Runescape is a copyrighted game, and as is every scrap of game code. By loading RS into RAM through a client or program that is not approved or owned by Jagex, that is breaking their Copyright, regardless of the license differences.

The fact of the matter is; that Jagex DOES have the power to shut them down, just as they almost did to Swiftkit before Swiftkit agreed to sign an agreement. The reason they don't is because for every site they shut down, another one will take its place. Think about Kbot, Kbot was sued and shut down, and other Nexus sites rose back up from its ashes. This goes along with the reason why Jagex waited until after they permanently nuked reflection to make the final movement against Nexus. They knew that once they sued and took down Nexus, they wouldn't have to worry about other reflection bot similar to Nexus rising back up and replacing it.

There's really no point for Jagex to waste good money on suing and shutting down sites that will just have imitators shortly after. Think about how long the court case between Jagex and the Snellman brothers lasted. Imagine if Jagex were to go through that process for EVERY single cliented bot? They simply don't feel like spending so much time and money on something that would only be a temporary solution. Even if they shut down all the cliented bots, more will rise to replace them, and then it's the same shit all over again.

Also, it wouldn't take down EVERY bot, just every bot except for Simba, Scar, and RiD, since they don't provide a download for a client that is specifically designed to load RS. The worst that could happen to Simba/Scar is them go after specific script developers, but we all know that Jagex doesn't have the time, nor will they waste the money, to go after a single scripter at a time.

The point is, they have the ability to sue them, however, realistically, it isn't going to be a very efficient use of their time or money to remove something that will quickly be replaced soon after. This is probably a good reason why they're launching the next series of Bot Nukes with Optimus; it's easier to repeatedly nuke ALL of the injection bots at once, than go after each bot site individually to take it down. Make sense?

 

[Jellee]

I don't really care about bots. Used them for a bit to get the quest requirements for a few quests (like agility, man, that stuff is boring as hell.) Had to get that up to 77, so used a bot instead.
The goldfarmers is what is keeping RuneScape running. For instance: Prayer and other skills would not be affordable for the majority of the RuneScape players. Frost dragon bones are 12K now, even when there are alot of bots getting those bones. Imagine how much money getting 99 Prayer or turmoil would cost then. Same with Slayer. If all bots dissappear, there will be far less sharks, monkfishes etc, which will result in Slayer being very expensive.

 

[Trent!]

I don't really care about bots. Used them for a bit to get the quest requirements for a few quests (like agility, man, that stuff is boring as hell.) Had to get that up to 77, so used a bot instead.
The goldfarmers is what is keeping RuneScape running. For instance: Prayer and other skills would not be affordable for the majority of the RuneScape players. Frost dragon bones are 12K now, even when there are alot of bots getting those bones. Imagine how much money getting 99 Prayer or turmoil would cost then. Same with Slayer. If all bots dissappear, there will be far less sharks, monkfishes etc, which will result in Slayer being very expensive.

While it would mean that there is a lower supply, this may make price go up, but if not many people want to pay that much at that price, it will just go down based on demand. Since there's a lot less bots, other methods of making money will be much more profitable, meaning that legit players or the existing botters are making much more profit per hour, meaning they should have more money, meaning they may be more likely to be fine with spending the extra money on the dragon bones, since they have more money to spare.

 

[iJava]

I'm not talking about licenses. The fact of the matter is that Runescape is a copyrighted game, and as is every scrap of game code. By loading RS into RAM through a client or program that is not approved or owned by Jagex, that is breaking their Copyright, regardless of the license differences.

The fact of the matter is; that Jagex DOES have the power to shut them down, just as they almost did to Swiftkit before Swiftkit agreed to sign an agreement. The reason they don't is because for every site they shut down, another one will take its place. Think about Kbot, Kbot was sued and shut down, and other Nexus sites rose back up from its ashes. This goes along with the reason why Jagex waited until after they permanently nuked reflection to make the final movement against Nexus. They knew that once they sued and took down Nexus, they wouldn't have to worry about other reflection bot similar to Nexus rising back up and replacing it.

There's really no point for Jagex to waste good money on suing and shutting down sites that will just have imitators shortly after. Think about how long the court case between Jagex and the Snellman brothers lasted. Imagine if Jagex were to go through that process for EVERY single cliented bot? They simply don't feel like spending so much time and money on something that would only be a temporary solution. Even if they shut down all the cliented bots, more will rise to replace them, and then it's the same shit all over again.

Also, it wouldn't take down EVERY bot, just every bot except for Simba, Scar, and RiD, since they don't provide a download for a client that is specifically designed to load RS. The worst that could happen to Simba/Scar is them go after specific script developers, but we all know that Jagex doesn't have the time, nor will they waste the money, to go after a single scripter at a time.

The point is, they have the ability to sue them, however, realistically, it isn't going to be a very efficient use of their time or money to remove something that will quickly be replaced soon after. This is probably a good reason why they're launching the next series of Bot Nukes with Optimus; it's easier to repeatedly nuke ALL of the injection bots at once, than go after each bot site individually to take it down. Make sense?

Ok your facts are a little off :

Kbot was never sued, it was shut down after JaGeX contacted Koaski asking him politely to do so.

Reflection hasn't been "nuked", as long as JaGeX use Java Reflection is possible.

If you think that loading RS into the ram is so illegal then why didn't JaGeX take them to court over that? Or at least add it in to their claim list? JaGeX sued Impsoft over something else.

Now onto your idea of there's no point suing each one individually, with the nuke there will be new bots that are released + old ones update. The power that JaGeX has they can easily afford to hire other people to do their way in court with the other bots if your logic of the ram is correct.

Go ask Paris on powerbot if the client is illegal and he will tell you what I am, Powerbot is legally registered in the UK so they could be easily sued for loading the client into the RAM if it was true.

Edit : Also as for Simba not being affected, look at Benland100's loader, that is specifically designed for RuneScape as it loads it and is a part of Simba.

 

[XWX]

Edit : Also as for Simba not being affected, look at Benland100's loader, that is specifically designed for RuneScape as it loads it and is a part of Simba.

Almost. SMART, yes, but SMART != Simba. With or without SMART, I assure you, Simba will continue to function as normal. SMART is simply an optional plugin to use in scripts, in no way mandatory.

By the way, this only pertains to Trent!'s take on Simba & Scar. SMART would be the only leverage they could use in a dispute, but take away that factor and they've no ground to stand on. After that the only 'illegal' part of Simba is breaking game rules; and the punishment would pertain only to in-game consequences.

 

[rinky]

I look at it as the bots are farming things that people don't want to farm for themselves(herbs as example), and when there are lots of bots getting one thing like Sorc Garden was/is, then it's actually helping the legit players by making 99 herblore cheaper, since herbs aren't as costly as they would be without the bots.

 

[<3☻]

I used to love bot's and maintaining farms of them, until the game got obliterated beyond recognition. New time's, new game's. That was then, this Is now.

 

[eennee]

I think bots are providing a substantial amount of the raw goods in the runescape market, without bots things like fletching witch requires large amounts of raw goods would be extremely expensive to level up

 

[Trent!]

Ok your facts are a little off :Reflection hasn't been "nuked", as long as JaGeX use Java Reflection is possible.

Jagex Obfuscated their code, meaning you'd have to use a method such as injection to get past the obfuscation to interact. There's a reason why no bot site has come out with a reflection bot since bot nuke, and Injection has been the only replacement thus far.

If you think that loading RS into the ram is so illegal then why didn't JaGeX take them to court over that? Or at least add it in to their claim list? JaGeX sued Impsoft over something else.

Because, like I said, it's more work, and more money. They easily won with the claims they already were using, and still managed to shut them down, and sue them for over a 7 digit value. No use in beating a dead horse.

Now onto your idea of there's no point suing each one individually, with the nuke there will be new bots that are released + old ones update. The power that JaGeX has they can easily afford to hire other people to do their way in court with the other bots if your logic of the ram is correct.

The nuke will repeatedly be launched every time injection gets working, meaning that injection is going to be a hella pain in the ass to try and continually fix and get working. This will mean that the majority of botters will switch to OpenGl and Color, like what they did after the first nuke. This significantly lowers the amount of bots in the game, and the only ones that would continue to violate the DMCA would be OpenGL bots. Color will always be here and there's nothing they can really do to stop them legally.

Go ask Paris on powerbot if the client is illegal and he will tell you what I am, Powerbot is legally registered in the UK so they could be easily sued for loading the client into the RAM if it was true.

While they are in the UK, Jagex is no longer considered to be based in the UK anymore, not after Andrew Gower sold his 35% of the company to a New York investment company which already owned 20%+. The company is now considered to be based in the US and is now considered a US company. Regardless, my reasoning for claiming that it is illegal is based on information given to me on someone who's already graduated from Uni with a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science and Networking. I'm going to say it's safe to say that his guy has more knowledge about computers and the law (considering he's been labeled as a 'Cyber Terrorist' legally because of some hacking he did into a government website when he was younger, but that's a little off-topic) than Paris. Paris also tried to say that injection itself is undetectable. While there's no specific thing that Jagex can look compared to other people that you are using injection, however there ARE things Jagex can do to interrupt or interact with the injection bots that give Jagex the information they need to prove you are botting. I can give you the thread where Exarctus and RiD have a conversation about the whole thing. Like I said before, it's easier for them to continually launch nukes than it is to go after sites legally, and it costs them less money. Over 30 people from Jagex quit/fired over the last few months, so it's not like they have a a storm of people they can use for this.

Edit : Also as for Simba not being affected, look at Benland100's loader, that is specifically designed for RuneScape as it loads it and is a part of Simba.

Since SMART =/= Simba, the worst that would happen is BenLand100 himself being sued, and that's only 1 person. Jagex isn't going to sue individuals who most likely have small enough amount of money that Jagex has nothing to gain financially from launching a lawsuit.


EDIT:

Here's a copy of the post I was referring to:

Replace Blizzard with Jagex, and Glider with any minimizable RS bot client

The Court reaches the following conclusions on the basis of undisputed facts,construction of the EULA and TOU, and controlling Ninth Circuit law: Blizzard owns a valid copyright in the game client software, Blizzard has granted a limited license for WoW players to use the software, use of the software with Glider falls outside the scope of the license established in section 4 of the TOU, use of Glider includes copying to RAM within the meaning of section 106 of the Copyright Act, users of WoW and Glider are not entitled to a section 117 defense, and Glider users therefore infringe Blizzard’s copyright

 

[ifh]

Botting is a business like anybody other.. People invest into expensive computers, have employees, have real revenue, and pay taxes. I completely condone botting in it's entirety.. It's not hurting the game really. Most of the people who play RS PvM & PvP.. It surely isn't taking away from that.

A majority of botters stick to certain things.. Runecrafting, Sorc Garden, GDK, etc.. How is that hurting anybody?

What if I'm a newbie that wants to make money by cutting down yew trees or collecting herbs?

People that bot their own accounts mainly hurt themselves in the long run. What's the point of playing if someone bots everything? Pvp? Pvm? Because you're bored?

Pvp and pvm are a joke in this game, you'll save a lot of time and money by playing another game.

I've had a decent amount of friends that botted. They've all quit.

 

[iJava]

Jagex Obfuscated their code, meaning you'd have to use a method such as injection to get past the obfuscation to interact. There's a reason why no bot site has come out with a reflection bot since bot nuke, and Injection has been the only replacement thus far.

In what way did they obfuscate their code? I know multiple people who have working reflection bots(not completed). You just don't understand that if you are using Java then you can't prevent Reflection being used to read your files.

Because, like I said, it's more work, and more money. They easily won with the claims they already were using, and still managed to shut them down, and sue them for over a 7 digit value. No use in beating a dead horse.

The Impsoft court battle wasn't easily won and took quite some time to do so.

The nuke will repeatedly be launched every time injection gets working, meaning that injection is going to be a hella pain in the ass to try and continually fix and get working. This will mean that the majority of botters will switch to OpenGl and Color, like what they did after the first nuke. This significantly lowers the amount of bots in the game, and the only ones that would continue to violate the DMCA would be OpenGL bots. Color will always be here and there's nothing they can really do to stop them legally.

Until injection bot developers find methods to overcome the damage the nuke does automatically.

While they are in the UK, Jagex is no longer considered to be based in the UK anymore, not after Andrew Gower sold his 35% of the company to a New York investment company which already owned 20%+. The company is now considered to be based in the US and is now considered a US company. Regardless, my reasoning for claiming that it is illegal is based on information given to me on someone who's already graduated from Uni with a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science and Networking. I'm going to say it's safe to say that his guy has more knowledge about computers and the law (considering he's been labeled as a 'Cyber Terrorist' legally because of some hacking he did into a government website when he was younger, but that's a little off-topic) than Paris. Paris also tried to say that injection itself is undetectable. While there's no specific thing that Jagex can look compared to other people that you are using injection, however there ARE things Jagex can do to interrupt or interact with the injection bots that give Jagex the information they need to prove you are botting. I can give you the thread where Exarctus and RiD have a conversation about the whole thing. Like I said before, it's easier for them to continually launch nukes than it is to go after sites legally, and it costs them less money. Over 30 people from Jagex quit/fired over the last few months, so it's not like they have a a storm of people they can use for this.

It doesn't matter if JaGeX is registered in the UK or US to start with. Please link me to what Paris said because I believe it was more along the lines that JaGeX don't detect injection, since you modify the JaGeX client when injecting I'm sure they could check for this.

Since SMART =/= Simba, the worst that would happen is BenLand100 himself being sued, and that's only 1 person. Jagex isn't going to sue individuals who most likely have small enough amount of money that Jagex has nothing to gain financially from launching a lawsuit.

Ok I don't the whole Simba setup too well.

EDIT:

Here's a copy of the post I was referring to:

Replace Blizzard with Jagex, and Glider with any minimizable RS bot client

There are a few different laws being used here and it was only deemed illegal due to different acts being "broken".

 

[roflme]

It doesn't matter if JaGeX is registered in the UK or US to start with. Please link me to what Paris said because I believe it was more along the lines that JaGeX don't detect injection, since you modify the JaGeX client when injecting I'm sure they could check for this.

Who is the "they" that could check for this? Jagex could check for modifications? Or developers can check if Jagex tries to detect?

 

[iJava]

Who is the "they" that could check for this? Jagex could check for modifications? Or developers can check if Jagex tries to detect?

JaGeX could check for modifications and developers possibly could depending on how JaGeX would do it.