• Log in or sign up for an account here: https://www.sythe.org/login

Why i belive in a higher power....

You cannot prove either one. Actually, you cannot prove anything in the real world.

Correct, not 100% though.
Proof: Something that can be measured, reproduced, and done over, and over, and over again. We can prove that something will hit the ground if we drop it. So when you say nothing can be proved, you are wrong. But creation/evolution can't be proved. We can't replicate anything god does....and we can't start the earth over.

It can, and it does.

If you saw this present sentence spelled out among the thousands of lines of Scrabble-letters spread out on the parking lot, could you prove mathematically beyond any reasonable doubt that the message did not get there by any random process of ordering by chance? This proposes a clear-cut and conclusive way to do so. ---If you thus rule out a random ordering of the letter-pieces, then you would virtually know that this sentence must have come from an intelligence. --How could you prove it beyond any reasonable doubt? ...Such a proof is accomplished by probability analysis.

Ok, so what that is...

In the instance of the one-letter word, the chance that someone would come up with that one specific word, "A," by random letter-selection (with each letter equally likely to be chosen), is one chance out of 26, because there are 26 letters in the alphabet.
If we take one specific two-letter word (such as "by"), the chance someone could randomly choose those two letters together in the correct sequence (with each letter equally likely to be chosen), is the product of the two selections, ...so the chance of getting a specific two-letter word would be one chance out 26x26 ---which equals one chance out of 676.
In like manner, the chance of randomly drawing one specific three-letter-word (such as "the"), would be one chance out of 26x26x26 ---which equals one chance out of 1756.

It is still very easy to conceive that the three-letter word could be randomly chosen in short order. --But the problem is: A three-letter word does not communicate much at all, and isn't a significant amount of information.

Going quite a bit further, however, if the level of complexity in a string of information is high enough (such as in this present sentence), then we can make a virtually air-tight case that this string of information could not have arisen (in any reasonable probability) by a random selection of letters, spaces and punctuations ---therefore, we would have a virtual "proof" that this information-set could not conceivably have arisen by random chance selections, but must have originated from an intelligence.

But how much information is necessary to solidly conclude that random selection is no longer reasonable, and intelligent selection is necessary?

As stated in a book i have heard of, called.."Probabilities and Life", by Emile Borel. He explains that any occurrence with a chance of happening that is less than one chance out of 10 to the 50th power, is an occurrence with such a slim a probability that is statistically considered to be zero. (10 to the 50th power is the number 1 with 50 zeros after it, and it is spoken: "10 to the 50th power"). Borel's appraisal seems fairly reasonable, when you consider that 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 is about the number of atoms which make up the planet earth.

However, for the purposes of what i'm saying, Borel's criterion is merely a starting point, because it is much too small for what we are doing here, considering the size and age of the cosmos. Thus, we will set a much tougher and ultimate standard, which we will call our "Cosmic Limit" Law of Chance. -k let me establish that limit in the following way:

* Since there are 10 to the 85th power sub-atomic particles in the known physical cosmos, and
* Since there are a maximum of 10 to the 20th power interactions (oscillations/cycles) per second between any two of those sub-atomic particles, and
* Since there are 10 to the 17th power seconds in the supposed age of the cosmos (15 bill. yrs),

. . . if we multiply the above three numbers out, we get the number 10 to the 121th power. ----So, that equals the total number of sub-atomic interactions possible since the beginning of the universe (at the "Big Bang").

Yep, it happened.
;)

What makes you think that?


CNN said:
POWERFUL evidence for global warming has been discovered by scientists funded by the US Government, demolishing the chief argument of sceptics who deny that the phenomenon is real.

A new analysis of satellite data has revealed that temperatures in a critical part of the atmosphere are rising much faster than previously thought, strengthening the scientific consensus that the world is warming at an unnatural rate.
The discovery resolves one of the most contentious anomalies in climate science, which has often been invoked by the Bush Administration to question whether man-made global warming is happening.

While it is generally accepted that surface temperatures are increasing by an average of 0.17C (0.31F) per decade, satellites have been unable to detect a parallel trend in the troposphere — the lowest level of the atmosphere, extending 7.5 miles above the ground, in which most weather occurs.



This lack of tropospheric warming has long puzzled scientists, as it is predicted by all the major models of climate change. It has also been seized on by a small but vocal minority of scientists, who have used it to raise doubts about whether global temperatures are rising at all. The enigma, however, has been explained by a team led by Qiang Fu, of the University of Washington in Seattle.

His research reveals that the troposphere is warming almost precisely as the models predict it should: by about 0.2C (0.4F) per decade. Satellites have not previously detected the trend as they have been confused by colder temperatures in the atmospheric layer above.

The findings, details of which are published today in the journal Nature, provide one of the final pieces of proof that global warming is taking place, and that it is a human-induced phenomenon.

Sceptics have often argued that if temperatures are rising at all, this is down to natural variation in the climate as the world emerges from a “little Ice Age”. The tropospheric trend, however, is precisely what scientists would expect to see if man-made emissions of greenhouse gases were causing it to heat up.

“I think this could convince not just scientists but the public as well,” Dr Fu said.

Mike Hulme, director of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research in Norwich, said: “It will become that much harder for people to claim that the world isn’t warming and that the warming isn’t caused by greenhouse-gas emissions.”

In their study, the Washington team examined atmospheric temperature data collected between January 1979 and December 2001 from satellites operated by the US National Atmospheric and Oceanic Administration.

These satellites used instruments known as microwave-sounding units to measure microwave radiation emitted by oxygen molecules, and thus to calculate the temperature.

The raw data for the troposphere, as measured by the instruments’ channel 2 setting, showed no pronounced warming trend.

Dr Fu realised, however, that about a fifth of the signal picked up on channel 2 in fact originated in the stratosphere — the higher level of the atmosphere between 10km and 50km above the Earth’s surface. This had skewed the data, as the stratosphere is known to be cooling rapidly.

“Because of ozone depletion and the increase of greenhouse gases, the stratosphere is cooling about five times faster than the troposphere is warming, so the channel 2 measurement by itself provided us with little information on the temperature trend in the lower atmosphere,” Dr Fu said.

His team then used measurements from weather balloons and from another channel on the microwave units to determine precisely how much of the channel 2 signal was coming from the stratosphere.

Once this stratospheric error was eliminated, the remaining data showed that the troposphere had indeed been warming, by about 0.2C (0.4F) a decade.

“This tells us very clearly what the lower atmosphere temperature trend is, and the trend is very similar to what is happening at the surface,” Dr Fu said.

The new tropospheric data does not suggest that the pace of global warming is increasing or decreasing. The research was funded by the US Government, through the Department of Energy, the National Science Foundation and Nasa.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates that global temperatures will rise by an average of between 1.4C and 5.8C by the end of the century.

Dr Hulme said that while the results further confirm the overwhelming scientific consensus that man-made global warming is a proven phenomenon, he would be surprised if it were accepted by critics.

“I’m under no illusions that it will knock down the critics altogether,” he said. “In some quarters, people hold almost fundamentalist beliefs that are immune to carefully reasoned argument. A new paper that seems to take the legs away from one of their critiques may unfortunately not make much difference to their arguments.

“It is the totality of the evidence that has convinced the vast majority of experts that the planet is warming: surface temperature recordings, rises in sea level, retreating glaciers, shifting species domains.

“The compendium of evidence from all these different sources means the overwhelming majority of scientists feel justified in warning society about this.”

Life evolves into species that can exploit a niche in the environment.

Evolution, being what it is, cannot think through what would be best for the environment. If an individual is more able to survive in an environment, it will have a greater chance of passing on its genes, thus propagating its own kind.

I simply agree with you there...if something about a creature is good, it will survive. Passing it's traits down. But can you really think that one cell made 10 million PLUS species?

http://pubs.wri.org/pubs_content_text.cfm?ContentID=535 said:
I mean, surprisingly, scientists have a better understanding of how many stars there are in the galaxy than how many species there are on Earth. Estimates of global species diversity have varied from 2 million to 100 million species, with a best estimate of somewhere near 10 million, and only 1.4 million have actually been named. The problems stemming from the limits of current knowledge of species diversity are compounded by the lack of a central database or list of the world's species.

New species are still being discovered--even new birds and mammals. On average, about three new species of birds are found each year, and as recently as 1990, a new species of monkey was discovered. Other vertebrate groups are still far from being completely described: an estimated 40 percent of freshwater fishes in South America have not yet been classified.


Consciousness arises from the interactions of trillions of cells in our body, mainly our brain. It is nothing more than an illusion that has come to be aware of itself.

I'll edit this later, no time now.

If you're talking about Homo Sapiens Sapiens, then yes, you are correct, because this species has only lived for about 250,000 years. That is not enough time for an entirely new species to develop.

I'll edit this later, no time now.

Alright. A lion is born with a natural tendency towards increased muscle density. It is therefore faster, stronger, and better able to feed, thus survive, and thus reproduce, spreading its genes.

Or, a flatworm is formed with some slightly light-sensitive cells in its head (the beginnings of an eye). It is able to tell when larger creatures are near it that would possibly consume it, and is able to flee, increasing its chances of passing on the "eye" genes.


I'll edit this later, no time now.

That's what cells did for about two billion years. However, slight variations in its environment caused it to be able to reproduce in slightly different ways.


I'll edit this later, no time now.

It is, on a small scale.


I'll edit this later, no time now.

By its very nature, evolution will produce mostly useless mutations, however, once in a while, it will produce a useful mutation.


I'll edit this later, no time now.

Consider what we knew about the world 100 years ago.

Consider what we knew 20 years ago.

Every day, our knowledge multiplies at an unbelievable pace. One day, we will finally answer that question.


I'll edit this later, no time now.

Personal experiences cannot be accepted as proof. Some people have experiences that there show them a holy place, others have experiences that indicate nothing.

There are any explanations, perhaps she was lying, in tune with the energy of the universe, she really did leave her body, who knows?


I'll edit this later, no time now.
 
Correct, not 100% though.
Proof: Something that can be measured, reproduced, and done over, and over, and over again. We can prove that something will hit the ground if we drop it. So when you say nothing can be proved, you are wrong. But creation/evolution can't be proved. We can't replicate anything god does....and we can't start the earth over.

Nothing can be proven 100%. You cannot say for certain that an object will fall if you let go of it.

SlaveOfTheBeast said:
If you saw this present sentence spelled out among the thousands of lines of Scrabble-letters spread out on the parking lot, could you prove mathematically beyond any reasonable doubt that the message did not get there by any random process of ordering by chance? This proposes a clear-cut and conclusive way to do so. ---If you thus rule out a random ordering of the letter-pieces, then you would virtually know that this sentence must have come from an intelligence. --How could you prove it beyond any reasonable doubt? ...Such a proof is accomplished by probability analysis.

Yet a sentence and life are different. As I have mentioned, studies in the area of chaos theory and self-organization have offered reasonable arguments as to why life is so complex. Complex systems arise from simple rules, as can be observed in the case of the termite.

SlaveOfTheBeast said:
Ok, so what that is...

In the instance of the one-letter word, the chance that someone would come up with that one specific word, "A," by random letter-selection (with each letter equally likely to be chosen), is one chance out of 26, because there are 26 letters in the alphabet.
If we take one specific two-letter word (such as "by"), the chance someone could randomly choose those two letters together in the correct sequence (with each letter equally likely to be chosen), is the product of the two selections, ...so the chance of getting a specific two-letter word would be one chance out 26x26 ---which equals one chance out of 676.
In like manner, the chance of randomly drawing one specific three-letter-word (such as "the"), would be one chance out of 26x26x26 ---which equals one chance out of 1756.

It is still very easy to conceive that the three-letter word could be randomly chosen in short order. --But the problem is: A three-letter word does not communicate much at all, and isn't a significant amount of information.

Going quite a bit further, however, if the level of complexity in a string of information is high enough (such as in this present sentence), then we can make a virtually air-tight case that this string of information could not have arisen (in any reasonable probability) by a random selection of letters, spaces and punctuations ---therefore, we would have a virtual "proof" that this information-set could not conceivably have arisen by random chance selections, but must have originated from an intelligence.

But how much information is necessary to solidly conclude that random selection is no longer reasonable, and intelligent selection is necessary?

As stated in a book i have heard of, called.."Probabilities and Life", by Emile Borel. He explains that any occurrence with a chance of happening that is less than one chance out of 10 to the 50th power, is an occurrence with such a slim a probability that is statistically considered to be zero. (10 to the 50th power is the number 1 with 50 zeros after it, and it is spoken: "10 to the 50th power"). Borel's appraisal seems fairly reasonable, when you consider that 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 is about the number of atoms which make up the planet earth.

However, for the purposes of what i'm saying, Borel's criterion is merely a starting point, because it is much too small for what we are doing here, considering the size and age of the cosmos. Thus, we will set a much tougher and ultimate standard, which we will call our "Cosmic Limit" Law of Chance. -k let me establish that limit in the following way:

* Since there are 10 to the 85th power sub-atomic particles in the known physical cosmos, and
* Since there are a maximum of 10 to the 20th power interactions (oscillations/cycles) per second between any two of those sub-atomic particles, and
* Since there are 10 to the 17th power seconds in the supposed age of the cosmos (15 bill. yrs),

. . . if we multiply the above three numbers out, we get the number 10 to the 121th power. ----So, that equals the total number of sub-atomic interactions possible since the beginning of the universe (at the "Big Bang").

Yep, it happened.
;)

If we imagine there to be infinite universes, it is apparent that we would appear in the only one capable of sustaining life. SOME of these universes must meet the odds, and it's only chance that ours did.



CNN said:
POWERFUL evidence for global warming has been discovered by scientists funded by the US Government, demolishing the chief argument of sceptics who deny that the phenomenon is real.

A new analysis of satellite data has revealed that temperatures in a critical part of the atmosphere are rising much faster than previously thought, strengthening the scientific consensus that the world is warming at an unnatural rate.
The discovery resolves one of the most contentious anomalies in climate science, which has often been invoked by the Bush Administration to question whether man-made global warming is happening.

While it is generally accepted that surface temperatures are increasing by an average of 0.17C (0.31F) per decade, satellites have been unable to detect a parallel trend in the troposphere — the lowest level of the atmosphere, extending 7.5 miles above the ground, in which most weather occurs.



This lack of tropospheric warming has long puzzled scientists, as it is predicted by all the major models of climate change. It has also been seized on by a small but vocal minority of scientists, who have used it to raise doubts about whether global temperatures are rising at all. The enigma, however, has been explained by a team led by Qiang Fu, of the University of Washington in Seattle.

His research reveals that the troposphere is warming almost precisely as the models predict it should: by about 0.2C (0.4F) per decade. Satellites have not previously detected the trend as they have been confused by colder temperatures in the atmospheric layer above.

The findings, details of which are published today in the journal Nature, provide one of the final pieces of proof that global warming is taking place, and that it is a human-induced phenomenon.

Sceptics have often argued that if temperatures are rising at all, this is down to natural variation in the climate as the world emerges from a “little Ice Age”. The tropospheric trend, however, is precisely what scientists would expect to see if man-made emissions of greenhouse gases were causing it to heat up.

“I think this could convince not just scientists but the public as well,” Dr Fu said.

Mike Hulme, director of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research in Norwich, said: “It will become that much harder for people to claim that the world isn’t warming and that the warming isn’t caused by greenhouse-gas emissions.”

In their study, the Washington team examined atmospheric temperature data collected between January 1979 and December 2001 from satellites operated by the US National Atmospheric and Oceanic Administration.

These satellites used instruments known as microwave-sounding units to measure microwave radiation emitted by oxygen molecules, and thus to calculate the temperature.

The raw data for the troposphere, as measured by the instruments’ channel 2 setting, showed no pronounced warming trend.

Dr Fu realised, however, that about a fifth of the signal picked up on channel 2 in fact originated in the stratosphere — the higher level of the atmosphere between 10km and 50km above the Earth’s surface. This had skewed the data, as the stratosphere is known to be cooling rapidly.

“Because of ozone depletion and the increase of greenhouse gases, the stratosphere is cooling about five times faster than the troposphere is warming, so the channel 2 measurement by itself provided us with little information on the temperature trend in the lower atmosphere,” Dr Fu said.

His team then used measurements from weather balloons and from another channel on the microwave units to determine precisely how much of the channel 2 signal was coming from the stratosphere.

Once this stratospheric error was eliminated, the remaining data showed that the troposphere had indeed been warming, by about 0.2C (0.4F) a decade.

“This tells us very clearly what the lower atmosphere temperature trend is, and the trend is very similar to what is happening at the surface,” Dr Fu said.

The new tropospheric data does not suggest that the pace of global warming is increasing or decreasing. The research was funded by the US Government, through the Department of Energy, the National Science Foundation and Nasa.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change estimates that global temperatures will rise by an average of between 1.4C and 5.8C by the end of the century.

Dr Hulme said that while the results further confirm the overwhelming scientific consensus that man-made global warming is a proven phenomenon, he would be surprised if it were accepted by critics.

“I’m under no illusions that it will knock down the critics altogether,” he said. “In some quarters, people hold almost fundamentalist beliefs that are immune to carefully reasoned argument. A new paper that seems to take the legs away from one of their critiques may unfortunately not make much difference to their arguments.

“It is the totality of the evidence that has convinced the vast majority of experts that the planet is warming: surface temperature recordings, rises in sea level, retreating glaciers, shifting species domains.

“The compendium of evidence from all these different sources means the overwhelming majority of scientists feel justified in warning society about this.”

I agree, global warming is a threat to humanity.

However, the Earth will survive this. Let us not assume that we are powerful enough to destroy the entire Earth. Even if we nuked every square inch of the planet, after a time, the radiation would subside to allow life to begin to flourish again.

SlaveOfTheBeast said:
I simply agree with you there...if something about a creature is good, it will survive. Passing it's traits down. But can you really think that one cell made 10 million PLUS species?

Yes, I do. It's logical.
 
meh i believe in the sciences
 
Nothing can be proven 100%. You cannot say for certain that an object will fall if you let go of it.

Maybe not, but it has never failed us so far.

Yet a sentence and life are different. As I have mentioned, studies in the area of chaos theory and self-organization have offered reasonable arguments as to why life is so complex. Complex systems arise from simple rules, as can be observed in the case of the termite.

Yes, they are different. Life is so much more complex. Pretend reading this whole thread, everything we have posted....x100. That's about as complicated as one cell. You can't imagine all the letters and the vast amount of thought and process that goes into every sentence. Even if there were a BILLION different universes, each with all the letters needed for this thread falling down and landing at "random" places.....the chances of it all coming together correctly is slim times 1000 to nothing.

If we imagine there to be infinite universes, it is apparent that we would appear in the only one capable of sustaining life. SOME of these universes must meet the odds, and it's only chance that ours did.

Infinite universes...random chances and reactions i suppose?
I agree, global warming is a threat to humanity.

However, the Earth will survive this. Let us not assume that we are powerful enough to destroy the entire Earth. Even if we nuked every square inch of the planet, after a time, the radiation would subside to allow life to begin to flourish again.

True, but i think the chaos theory is more of a theologian's question. Chaos theory states.....chaos>order. It may be true for somethings, but looking at the earth....I'm not nearly convinced. Maybe it is true. Maybe the creation of a higher power?

Yes, I do. It's logical.

I ask one question.
Why the need for 10 million + organisms?
Why didn't that cell just turn into ONE organism..?

[/QUOTE]
 
Anyone?
I'm gona make a youtube video about this probably.
 
Thank you very much :)
 
Think about it....
Where did it all come from?
The universe, everything, the materials in space....
The basis of everything...
People say the earth was from materials, and then the scientist try to explain where that stuff came from....so on and so on....

Ok...
So would you rather believe:
1. Everything was just there and BAM earth, planets, everything was just there...

2. There is a greater power who is eternal and forever will be, and he created the universe...


I go with option 2.

Then where did the higher power come from?
 
Then where did the higher power come from?

That's a question that can be asked for both sides.
Where did the sub-atomic particles that scientifically expanded into the universe come from?

I'm sure you, or no scientist, or anyone can answerer that.

Neither can i explain where a god/power came from.
 
So you're essentially saying that you believe that a massive, all powerful, creative, law-defying object (God) just popped into existence rather than that a tiny, tiny, tiny particle popped into existence?
 
So you're essentially saying that you believe that a massive, all powerful, creative, law-defying object (God) just popped into existence rather than that a tiny, tiny, tiny particle popped into existence?
Actually, most people that beleive in God beleive that He is outside of time (meaning He has no beginning or end).
 
Let's put it this way.
There are dimensions, such as space, time, etc.
Let's just say, if you draw a picture. Everything in that picture is on a flat plane. No depth, no hight. We, humans, live in a world where we are have hight, depth, and width (space to all sides of us). We are also slaves to time, another dimension. Just like things on paper are not controlled by hight, god is not under the control of time...

This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSmwu_WZ4nc should explain it alot better than i can.
We can't see what we don't know...other dimensions...
Just watch the video.
 
there is no proof that "dimensions" exist.

read this:
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9404/bigbang.html

if your not willing to read that then i doubt anyone will take into mind your thoughts if your not willing to read the opposing sides theories.

Hmm...this is from the article you suggested me to read. I will in fact read it, as i am completely open to all sides of religion/science.

Stephen Hawking has said, in his writings, "the actual point of creation lies outside the scope of presently known laws of physics," and a less well-known but very distinguished cosmologist, Professor Alan Guth from MIT, says the "instant of creation remains unexplained."

I want to quote from a book that I don't recommend. It is by a brilliant physicist, Leon Lederman, a Nobel Prize winner. It is called The God Particle and although the title sounds very appealing, the good information is all in the first paragraph. The rest of it is just a case for the building of the SSC, the Super Conducting-Super Collider, which we now know is not going to be built. Therefore the book is a bit of a Rip Van-Winkle sort of experience! But the first paragraph is wonderful; it's a great summary of what I have said so far:

In the very beginning, there was a void, a curious form of vacuum, a nothingness containing no space, no time, no matter, no light, no sound. Yet the laws of nature were in place and this curious vacuum held potential. A story logically begins at the beginning, but this story is about the universe and unfortunately there are no data for the very beginnings--none, zero. We don't know anything about the universe until it reaches the mature age of a billion of a trillionth of a second. That is, some very short time after creation in the big bang. When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up--we are in the realm of philosophy. Only God knows what happened at the very beginning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is all very, very complicated. This has been a hard topic for me, 14, to argue about. I'm still going to keep trying...
I do not know where the fabric of universe came from. A proven law is.....from nothing will nothing come. All of the greatest minds of science can not explain it...and i certainly can't. All i believe is the earth was there...since the beginning of time. I believe there is a god, i believe evolution on a massive scale is false. I believe god is in the 4th dimension, a.k.a time. That is the only thing that makes since to me. With no time to bound god, he could create the universe, and at any "time" it could come into place. I've tried my best to present evidence. I hope i've helped someone.
 
I go with how the hell did the greater power get there.
Your saying boom the planets appeared. And yu belive a greater power magicly spawned?

I have NO clue what to belive...but they both dont make much sense to me.
 
Well there was an explosion, stars explode all the time and that way new galaxies/planets are formed.
The Earth was created that way.
Option 1.
 
Well there was an explosion, like the start explorde from time to time.
The Earth was created that way.
Option 1.

What?
 
Runescape Gamblingrunescape gambling
Back
Top