What makes us better than the Ancients?

[T V]

Is it the fact that they didn't have cars and could handle walking dozens of miles a day through jungles, deserts, and mountains? Or is it that they didn't wear much clothing and could brave the elements? Maybe it's the fact that they didn't have computers, video games, and smart phones on which to spend hours a day. Or what about the fact they didn't have Wal-mart, and instead had to hunt for and grow their own food, as well as build their own houses?
A thousand years before your glorified European ancestors abandoned the idea of a four-thousand-year old Universe, the Maya were using time scales in the millions; in India, they were working in the billions (also, take note that they had conceptions of a multiverse long before Everett published his theory).

It seems a lot of people here lack respect for those howling savages who "falsely" predicted the "End of the World", so my question is mostly directed towards them.
I'm eager to hear your replies.







Also, if their mythology and religion makes you feel funny (or if the subject really interests you), read these great books

(This one's kinda pricey, but you can easily find it at a library)
http://www.amazon.com/Hamlets-Mill-Investigating-Knowledge-Transmission/dp/0879232153


http://www.amazon.com/The-Inner-Reaches-Outer-Space/dp/1608681106

 

[Wrote_Murder]

The human race has far exceeded it's boundaries and in all rightness should be exterminated.

Of course I wouldn't like it if i was dead, but playing advocate...we have done nothing but hurt the earth, and "trying" or "going green" to repair our mistakes doesn't cut it.

Our ancient ancestors lived happy lives, without hurting the earth, and without making a difference in how others lived. Well, for the most part.

Most of the population today is less intelligent than the majority of the population back then. In proper scale at least.

Our 13 year old children are helpless, couldn't live a week without guidance, like a house dog.

Back then a 13 year old boy could fight a jaguar (probably exaggerating).

In all honesty, I feel like I'm better than them, because I'm alive and they aren't.

They are all dead, they lose the game called life, by my standards atleast.

They lost by dieing.

One day, I myself with lose.

 

[Fendle]

Back then, they survived and worked towards food and just surviving. Now people today are just slaves for money.

 

[Wrote_Murder]

I disagree fendle, their lives were very much based on pleasure.

 

[Its good 2b back]

You are to materialistic, all the differences you said are based on stuff we have made...
That doesn't change much when it comes down to happyness, since they never had those things they can't feel like they miss it. I think back than the lifestyle was much more healthy than nowadays when its all about making money and living for the future rather for the moment..

 

[Emperor Nero]

I agree with Fendle, much of the world back then were merely subsistence farmers/hunters/gatherers and did what they had to do to survive. Humans are the mostly highly adaptable animal on earth. We live and strive in every single biome and we've developed technology that makes it so where we don't have to struggle for survival anymore. People deplore us now but people back then didn't generally live past 35, and the only people who did were the priesthood. By the time you were 35 you already had a couple dozen kids or so by a few different women and your progeny lived on. Now that we live much longer lives we no longer have to have 20 kids to get all of our work done to survive. I believe you're skipping over much of the little details concerning the foundations of society and looking at the pieces without seeing the whole puzzle.

Humans are weak, slow, and fragile but we have a massive brain.

 

[T V]

You are to materialistic, all the differences you said are based on stuff we have made...
That doesn't change much when it comes down to happyness, since they never had those things they can't feel like they miss it. I think back than the lifestyle was much more healthy than nowadays when its all about making money and living for the future rather for the moment..

What else is there besides things we create to survive?

I agree with Fendle, much of the world back then were merely subsistence farmers/hunters/gatherers and did what they had to do to survive. Humans are the mostly highly adaptable animal on earth. We live and strive in every single biome and we've developed technology that makes it so where we don't have to struggle for survival anymore. People deplore us now but people back then didn't generally live past 35, and the only people who did were the priesthood. By the time you were 35 you already had a couple dozen kids or so by a few different women and your progeny lived on. Now that we live much longer lives we no longer have to have 20 kids to get all of our work done to survive. I believe you're skipping over much of the little details concerning the foundations of society and looking at the pieces without seeing the whole puzzle.

But it's not as if there was no such a thing as leisure back then. They did have music, art, festivals, sports. Granted mich lf their that involoved displays of reverance towards dieties, but they enjoyed themselves nonetheless (unless they were the ones to be sacrificed lol). Take the Aztecs for example. At certain
festivals they'd drink hot chocolate with honey and shrooms and then dance; I dunno about you guys, but to me that sounds like a helluva party.

And alright, let's look at the bigger picture. Keep in mind that the reason they had so many children was because of the high mortality rates; it was necessary to ensure that at least some of their offspring would survive. But you're right, we developed technology to struggle less, we're living longer, having less kids, but where does that put us in relation to the Earth? The people of the past may have had larger families, but their communities were smaller compared to what we have now. They weren't depleting the earth's resources on the scale that we are. And what is all that technology doing? Smokestacks poisoning the air, industrial waste in the ocean, landfills piling up... Yet many people seem to think they don't need to bother chaning anything, for a solition is surely on its way. What they don't realize is that the solution to the problem begins with changing that complacent mindset. But again, many of them are too busy with their iphones or their facebook to even notice the kind of damage being done to the earth.

Humans are weak, slow, and fragile

Now more than ever imo

but we have a massive brain.

I hope it stays that way

 

[Matty ICE]

There were 3 civilizations that predicted the end of the world. The Indians predicted 12/20/2012, the Mayans predicted 12/21/2012, and another civilization predicted 12/22/2012. It's CRAZY that they're also so close. You'd think that they'd be off by a year, or a month, but nope, just a day.

The world could still end, think about it.

 

[T V]

Their calenders followed astronomical observations. Check out the first book I linked

 

[Its good 2b back]

What else is there besides things we create to survive?

well you asked what makes us 'BETTER.'

In my opinion better is not defined by only the things we create, but also other important things that are needed for happyness and certain states of mind.
besides a lot of the things we create that helps us bring stress with them.

 

[kmjt]

Massive brain doesn't always correlate to increased intelligence. I forget if it was homo erectus or habilis but i'm pretty sure one of our ancestors had a larger brain than modern homo sapien yet we are obviously more intelligent.

Technology makes us better. I'm sure if we didn't have cars or easy food access we would do what our ancestors did too.

 

[SyntheticX]

Tbh, now-a-days, stuff is so much more 'dumbed down' then what it was in ancient times. Although, we also have the power create and even destroy things somewhat easier to how it was back in ancient times. Although, I believe it is almost impossible to say whether or not we are better then the ancients. For example, technology, how did we build and invent things now?what was everything we use and know today built off? Everything invented in history. The wheel? Where would we be with out that? Fire? Maths? The list goes on.

 

[T V]

well you asked what makes us 'BETTER.'

In my opinion better is not defined by only the things we create, but also other important things that are needed for happyness and certain states of mind.
besides a lot of the things we create that helps us bring stress with them.

Ok then, I'll ask you this: What do we have now that allows us to be happier than our ancient ancestors?

Massive brain doesn't always correlate to increased intelligence. I forget if it was homo erectus or habilis but i'm pretty sure one of our ancestors had a larger brain than modern homo sapien yet we are obviously more intelligent.

Technology makes us better. I'm sure if we didn't have cars or easy food access we would do what our ancestors did too.

Our brains' have been pretty much the same for the past 40,000 years, but their foreheads were a little bigger.

Tbh, now-a-days, stuff is so much more 'dumbed down' then what it was in ancient times. Although, we also have the power create and even destroy things somewhat easier to how it was back in ancient times. Although, I believe it is almost impossible to say whether or not we are better then the ancients. For example, technology, how did we build and invent things now?what was everything we use and know today built off? Everything invented in history. The wheel? Where would we be with out that? Fire? Maths? The list goes on.

True that. I asked the question after seeing all the self-congratulatory posts in the 2012 doomsday threads. Like this bright fellow:

http://www.sythe.org/11760977-post81.html

 

[Noam]

People love to look back and say how wonderful these ancients of theirs were, but it still amounts to the tiny minorities' findings that are inaccurate at best and completely wrong most of the time. Just as an example take Aristotle's four elements theory and the impetus in motion.

The other thing that is often lacking is mathematical basis. The thing that makes Everett's theory special is that it uses mathematics to accurately describe quantum phenomena that are proven to exist. A theory is more than an idea, it absolutely must have justification, and mere philosophical discussions don't cut it.

While it's nice to say they thought in similar ways, much of the actual net advancement in human society came in the 18-21st centuries and you can't ignore that.
While the calculations and theories are laudable, you cannot assume they had been an educated people. The true achievement in modern times is not so much the fact that more advancements have been made as much as it is that everybody is now able to get access to enough education, and therefore those people with potential are more likely to be able to use it.

Living conditions were pretty horrible globally back then and would equate to something in a third world country. Seeing fruit as a delicacy, often sharing an entire loaf of bread as the main source of nutrition for a family in a day, struggling to meet basic necessities is not a good start. In several cultures, the religion was quite barbaric, notable the sun and moon temples and Indian human sacrifices.

 

[mage3158]

the Maya were using time scales in the millions

Actually, they had one of the most advanced time keeping and counting in recorded history. They had dates before what we believe to be when the big bang happened.

It seems a lot of people here lack respect for those howling savages who "falsely" predicted the "End of the World", so my question is mostly directed towards them.

They never predicted the end of the world, anyone claiming that 12/21/12 was anything but a roll over of the calendar is ignorant.

Recorded history of humans only goes back so far, even though we have evidence of even older established civilizations.
For example there is proof of older civilizations where the Incas lived.

This means we don't know the full scope of human technology from many thousands of years ago.

 

[T V]

People love to look back and say how wonderful these ancients of theirs were, but it still amounts to the tiny minorities' findings that are inaccurate at best and completely wrong most of the time. Just as an example take Aristotle's four elements theory and the impetus in motion.

Alright, and what we know now amounts to... what? How much closer to solving the mysteries the ancients pondered are we today?

The other thing that is often lacking is mathematical basis. The thing that makes Everett's theory special is that it uses mathematics to accurately describe quantum phenomena that are proven to exist. A theory is more than an idea, it absolutely must have justification, and mere philosophical discussions don't cut it.

To you they are philosophical discussions, to them they were truth. To me, the fact that had they could conceived something like a multiverse speaks volumes of their intellect. And there's no deny that the Indians were intelligent when you think of their contributions to medicine, mathematics, architecture, art, music.

While it's nice to say they thought in similar ways, much of the actual net advancement in human society came in the 18-21st centuries and you can't ignore that.

True that.

While the calculations and theories are laudable, you cannot assume they had been an educated people.

Educated about what?

Living conditions were pretty horrible globally back then and would equate to something in a third world country. Seeing fruit as a delicacy, often sharing an entire loaf of bread as the main source of nutrition for a family in a day, struggling to meet basic necessities is not a good start. In several cultures, the religion was quite barbaric, notable the sun and moon temples and Indian human sacrifices.

Why do make the generalization that they were all living off of a loaf of bread a day and seeing fruit as a delicacy. That certainly may have been true for some families, but it was not true for all ancient cultures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenochtitlan

on the Aztec capital's marketplaces:

Cortés estimated it was twice the size of the city of Seville with about 60,000 people trading daily. Bernardino de Sahagún provides a more conservative population estimate of 20,000 on ordinary days and 40,000 on feast days. There were also specialized markets in the other central Mexican cities.

Seeing fruit as delicacy doesn't constitute inferiority if you ask me. What would you consider a "delicacy" today?



And yes, they had human sacrifices to the gods. Yet, in the time period you have claimed to be the one in which "much of the net advancement of human society" occurred, there existed a widespread institution of slavery and exploitation, most famously by European powers, as well as the Americans.

Actually, they had one of the most advanced time keeping and counting in recorded history. They had dates before what we believe to be when the big bang happened.

As far as I know the Mayan timescale only went up to a few hundred million years, but you're right they had conceptions about all sorts of things pertaining to the Cosmos.

They never predicted the end of the world, anyone claiming that 12/21/12 was anything but a roll over of the calendar is ignorant.

"It was said concerning the Mayan astronomers that the connections were what counted. In the archaic universe all things were signs and signature of each other, inscribed in the hologram, to be divined subtly... 'The economy of classical language...is rational, which means that in it words are abstracted as much as possible in the interest of relationship... No word has a density by itself, it is hardly the sign of a thing, but rather the means of conveying a connection."

If that passage were true, then, although you may not necessarily believe in it, might it not be possible that the end of the calendar held a different meaning for the ancient Maya (regardless of whether or not there's any "evidence" for substantiating their beliefs).

 

[T V]

Not as much dissent as I was expecting :l

 

[Annex]

We are better than the ancients because of the better ability to share experiences, which therefore makes the average person smarter and more adept. Its really a simple concept, shared experiences lead to smarter people on average than singular experiences. People complain about how stupid the average person is now, but comparing to back then when the average person COULDN'T READ their native language, it really is no comparison.

Yes a literate person is by default smarter than an illiterate one, being unable to explain your ideas to multiple people across different boundaries truly questions whether or not you actually know the idea you claim to know.

 

[Emperor Nero]

We are better than the ancients because of the better ability to share experiences, which therefore makes the average person smarter and more adept. Its really a simple concept, shared experiences lead to smarter people on average than singular experiences. People complain about how stupid the average person is now, but comparing to back then when the average person COULDN'T READ their native language, it really is no comparison.

Yes a literate person is by default smarter than an illiterate one, being unable to explain your ideas to multiple people across different boundaries truly questions whether or not you actually know the idea you claim to know.

I concur, which I touched on slightly in my previous post.

Our knowledge is a pool of understanding that has been built from globalization. Few early civilizations moved so much as to amass knowledge of the world greater than a hundred or so miles away from where they were born. They had just figured out how to domesticate animals (some didn't even know how to do that) and grow crops. Now when you refer to the Mayans, Incas, the Babylonians you have to make yourself clear as to if you are referring to the early civilization or the later civilizations - because each of those evolved a lot in the time that it took to go from agriculture to road building. (thousands and thousands and thousands of years)

 

[GodGenesis]

My stand is still that we are definitely much better than the Ancients in many ways! The time that the ancients used for hunting, building their homes, we use them for socializing, Submersing ourselves with knowledge. The Ancients surely didn't know as much as we do.

We have instant access to vast amount of knowledge through the Internet, be able to communicate and trade with people from all across the globe, we are able to do things much more efficiently than the Ancients.

As what Emporor Nero said above, our knowledge are all collective bundles served right at our very door step. We can use known results to aid in our quest for more advanced technology, thereby skipping many research procedures.