Viou High Pardon

[Unregistered Viou]

Hello staff members of Sythe,
As you are well aware, I was banned today for making a post about wanting do an AMA on Reddit.

1.The post in question:

Yea its me, Viou.

I'm going to do an ask me anything on Reddit in about two weeks or so and I will also do one on here around that time. I don't trade gold anymore so I won't be holding anything back.

For the record: I made by far the most money in a year of gold trading of all time as far as I am aware. I would be shocked if anyone was more successful.

Ever wanted to know who you should actually sell gold to for the highest price?
Hint: No one on this forum (That's actually a lie, there are two people on this forum who consistently pay the highest prices and are trustworthy, no, they are not R2P, Arcus, or Busta).
Secrets to talk about..
All the money that can be made by selling to people with frauded accounts..
How to sell gold on PayPal with guaranteed 100% no chargebacks or disputes..
How to reduce WU fees from 10% to 1%..
The single best payment method for buying and selling..
For the entire time I traded, I was probably the only person to know or to use these tactics to such an extent, seeing as I haven't traded for over a year, it is of course possible that more people know some of these secrets, but I assume that 99% of the runescape population does not.
I bought from the biggest sellers of all time (Win All Day, Vi3t Master, Apple, Tonychet2, Phalkor, etc.). I have paid multiple people over $300K for each for their gold. No I don't care about naming names or talking about all the sketchy stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I am also planning on revealing my runescape name (although several people know who I was). Be ready.
Some of my best sellers were scammers, hackers, account recoverers, bug abusers, etc.


VIOU asked me to put this in - His definition of scammers

So to clarify:
[10:45:21 PM] Viou: I never bought gold from anyone who obtained it illegally (hacking, frauded paypals)
[10:45:36 PM] Viou: by scammers I mean people who acquired it through highly dubious methods in game (bug abusing, account recovering)
[10:45:51 PM] Viou: I'm seriously out of the loop and that's what scamming has always meant to me
[10:46:21 PM] Viou: if those goods are considered stolen, then I suppose I am guilty
[10:46:28 PM] Viou: but like I said, everyone else bought from those people
[10:46:36 PM] Viou: I wasnt the one who bought from leberfire
[10:46:43 PM] Viou: for example

I have a lot of very specific and shocking stories to share.
Point is, I don't really give a fuck about all the secrets that go with gold trading seeing as I don't do it anymore, so I am going to spill them all. Everything that the big gold traders such as Arcus, R2P, don't want the average buyer/seller to know. I will tell how I was able to make at least $1,000 a day (and some days $5,000-$10,000 a day) for well over a year by exploiting a very small, but important, loophole (I guess you could call it that).
Anyways, I'll post again here as the time gets closer, just thought I would wet your appetite first..
Disclaimer: I expect this to be of great interest to the community and I will not be surprised if some people will be very angry with the information I will be sharing.
Mods: Not sure where to post this, feel free to move.

2. Before we begin though, I would like to clarify several important things:
- I have not traded in the market for over a year now, so I do not mind a market ban.
- Likewise, I do not mind a TWC, as I do not use the market.

And for the record: I do not think I deserve either of these punishments.

I would also like to note some of my contributions to the community during my time as a 3 year member:
- $500 Donator
- Over 800 vouches (Near the most at the time): http://www.sythe.org/vouches-forum/937404-vious-vouches.html
- A successful gold buying thread with over 5 Trillion gold purchased through Sythe (Most at the time): http://www.sythe.org/runescape-gold...ng-all-rsgp-pp-wu-mail-bt-etc-1-6m-spent.html
- A successful gold selling thread with over 2000 posts and 2500 sales: http://www.sythe.org/runescape-gold...-trade-gold-shop-pp-wu-mail-bt-250b-sold.html
- The largest partyhat/rare item buying thread: http://www.sythe.org/runescape-item...all-rares-phats-pp-wu-mail-bt-1-6m-spent.html
- The largest partyhat/rare item selling thread: http://www.sythe.org/runescape-item...sks-pumpkins-spirit-shields-fury-kits-pp.html
- Winner of Most Legitimate User 2011 as voted on by the community (By about four times as many votes as the runner up)
- Alerted staff prior to Feren Silver’s attempted scam and prevented $1000’s worth of scamming
- Assisted in the banning of over 50 users
- Largest gold trader from February 2011 – February 2012
- Suggested several approved suggestions

3.Sythe.org rules:

Scamming: or any suspicious behavior similar to scamming (i.e. attempting to scam), this includes Runescape name Sniping. This also includes: Impersonating other members, and any other similar behavior. Impersonating ranks through the use of your signature.
Malicious Off-site Activities: If you are found to have committed offences elsewhere (as in, on other sites) which would constitute a ban here on Sythe.org had they been committed here, we may use these offences as an indicator of your character and choose to ban you from Sythe.org. Offences committed prior to your Sythe.org membership may also be considered depending on the nature of the offence. Posting Infected Files/Malware: Keyloggers, viruses, trojans, etc...
Returning After a Ban/Ban Evading: If one of your accounts has been banned for whatever reason and you return under another account, that account will also be banned. Frequent ban evasion will result in an IP ban. Evading a temporary ban will result in both accounts being banned for the length of your current ban plus an additional week
Selling your Sythe account: Self explanatory.
"Blackhat"/Malicious Activities: Using software tools for deceptive, malicious, or harmful intent (Hacking/DDoSing/Social Engineering). Punishment for these offences will be dealt with on case-by-case basis, but will most likely result in a permanent ban.
NB: 'Counter-scamming' (i.e. attempting to recover your property from a scammer) is not against the rules, but attempting to scam someone who previously scammed you is. There is a big difference between the two. You should be aware that if you attempt to recover your property from a scammer, that scammer may attempt to report you on sythe.org. If you have insufficient evidence to back your claims that you were indeed recovering your stolen property the staff may be forced to ban you.

4.I never scammed, participated in malicious off-site activities, returned after a ban/ban evaded, sold my sythe account, participated in blackhat activities, or scammed someone who previously scammed from me.

What I did do:
1.I bought from people who had acquired their gold through account recoveries, bug abusing, scamming.
2. I sold to people through playerauctions who placed fraudulent orders (such as leberfire—who scammed moneybookers some 40k--however, I cannot possibly be held blame for this when he bought from at least a dozen other sellers)

What I did not do:
1.Sell to people who paid using frauded paypals (unless it was unintentionally, in which case I would have lost the money after a dispute, as there is NO way to keep stolen paypal money)

What I was not going to do:
1. Teach people how to trade stolen goods (I have no idea). I was simply an end buyer or seller, just like every other major gold trader.

From Sythe:
He admitted to trading in stolen goods. He was offering to teach others how to do the same.

I am not quite sure where you thought that I was offering to teach others how to trade stolen goods, all of these methods are entirely legal, just little known, and allow the average buyer to compete with the big buyers, which I was going to reveal to the public.
How to sell gold on PayPal with guaranteed 100% no chargebacks or disputes.. (***You cannot do this with someone who has a frauded PayPal, it is impossible to take keep stolen money on PayPal)
How to reduce WU fees from 10% to 1%.. (***This is a very little known tactic, not illegal)
The single best payment method for buying and selling (***This is a little known method, not illegal)

So as those are all legal, then let me take some time to respond to this comment by me:

All the money that can be made by selling to people with frauded accounts..

What I was going to talk about:
- I never bought gold from leberfire, who was really the only person who went around using frauded paypal accounts. I am sure other people did though, and knowingly.
- I never bought gold from anyone who used illegal funds to purchase their gold (such as hacked paypals, etc).
**All this line meant was to talk about how Leberfire would use his illegal funds on moneybookers to purchase gold in bulk and at high prices from sellers, hence giving the reseller a large margin. Again, I can point to at least 6 different people he bought from with frauded moneybookers accounts through playerauctions, and they of course knew who he was. This is really an extremely small part of what I wanted to talk about.

As far as this comment goes:

Some of my best sellers were scammers, hackers, account recoverers, bug abusers, etc.

By this I mean people who scammed gold in game, account recoverers, and bug abusers. Hackers to me simply meant account recoverers. I do not know anyone (nor have I ever) who used blackhat methods (such as using RATs, Trojans, Etc) to acquire gold. That was an ignorant word usage by me, and for that I do apologize.

None of what I admitted to doing occurred within the past year, nor have I ever enabled or assisted in any scam or fraud. I was simply an end buyer. I accepted all sellers because if I didn’t, then R2Pleasant, Kevin001, or some other gold buyer would have.

I do not think I should be banned as I did what every other gold seller did (and still does). Every gold trader does shady trades from time to time, and they know it. I admitted to something that I did not think was against the rules, although morally I do not feel good about it. That said, if I did not buy, then the seller would have sold to any other buyer, so that logic overruled, and so I bought because I was not breaking any laws or rules as I was not enabling a scam.

Quote from N4NO:

You willingly and knowingly accepted gold which was obtained through malicious and ILLEGAL means. That makes you no better than them. Being the banning party, I’ll leave this open for further input, but I personally will not support this dispute, nor any pardon any time soon.

Quote from N4NO:

He willingly and knowingly accepted gold from users who had obtained their stock through scamming, recovering, hacking, etc. This alone shows a massive lack of moral character

If I am found to have broken the rules and am permanently banned and this pardon denied based on either rules or morals, I will procure evidence demonstrating that all of the following gold traders also knowingly bought or sold to scammers, account recoverers, or bug abusers, because based on N4NO’s ruling, all of the following traders should be banned as well:

- R2Pleasant
- Arcus Isildar
- Kevin001
- Busta305
- Video
- Noob1337
- Grave

My point is, every gold buyer buys gold from where he can get it because if he doesn’t, someone else will. It should not be against the rules to knowingly buy gold from people who have acquired gold in this method, as this is not enabling the scam. This is because there are a myriad of buyers in the market, and the seller will easily be able to sell to another buy if he so wishes. The market is highly liquid, I did not have market power, therefore I could not possibly enable the scam by simply being a buyer.

I would appreciate if a simple conversation could have been had before banning me, as I wrote the original post rather quickly and now I’m stuck fighting this uphill battle.
If I am going to be permanently banned for what I have done, I will post one final thread with evidence demonstrating that all of the above traders participated in similar activities. I do not wish to do this, but logically everyone else should be banned as well based on the evidence I can provide. But I want to reiterate that I do not think it is or should be against the rules to buy or sell from people who have done questionable things to acquire their gold.

Thank you for taking the time to read this high pardon and if anyone would like to discuss further with me my Skype is Lightvious

- Viou

 

[Wolfdog]

Viou asked me to add this to the post -

So to clarify:
[10:45:21 PM] Viou: I never bought gold from anyone who obtained it illegally (hacking, frauded paypals)
[10:45:36 PM] Viou: by scammers I mean people who acquired it through highly dubious methods in game (bug abusing, account recovering)
[10:45:51 PM] Viou: I'm seriously out of the loop and that's what scamming has always meant to me
[10:46:21 PM] Viou: if those goods are considered stolen, then I suppose I am guilty
[10:46:28 PM] Viou: but like I said, everyone else bought from those people
[10:46:36 PM] Viou: I wasnt the one who bought from leberfire
[10:46:43 PM] Viou: for example

 

[Dave]

You've got my support.

 

[Wolfdog]

You've got my support.

Mine as well. Talking to you has just confirmed my original feeling about the ban.

 

NO! You stupid man.

You really think you can admit to dealing in stolen goods then be pardoned? Wtf do you take us for.

Vetoed. Go away.

 

[video]

This was probably meant to be closed, but I just wanted to say that I don't think Viou's deserving of a permanent ban for this. It happened years ago, and he's done a lot of good for the site simply by facilitating some of the largest trades ever seen around here and remaining trustworthy

 

[Unregistered Viou]

If whoever reads this could please merge this with the original high pardon thread, that would be awesome. Thanks.

To Richard: I would really appreciate a second look when you have the time to do so. I am an honest member of the community and I sincerely apologize for my miscommunication. I did not mean to put myself in this position and I would be very sad to be permanently banned for something that I did not know was against the rules after three years of hard work without any chance of restitution. This is of course your forum, and my case is in your hands, but I can’t help but feel this was blown out of proportion due to my initial miswording, which I am truly sorry for (and why I am still awake at 6:00am writing this message).

I just wanted to post one final time just to make sure that I explain clearly exactly what I did. I really did invest a lot of time into this community over the past three years and I would be absolutely devastated for this permanent ban to be upheld due to a miscommunication on my part. Please do give this serious consideration, as I am very upset that I have put myself in this position and I want to get out of it as quickly as possible. It would be truly sad to have my legacy as one of the most trusted users of all time end in a ban due to miswording in a hastily written post that I did not bother to proof read.

I know for a fact that their has been miscommunication as I was banned initially for something I did not do (profiting off of stolen money), and this has continued to be used against me throughout this ordeal despite it being entirely untrue.

I will address all of the controversial/unclear issues one at a time:

1. Buying/Selling with or to frauded money.

Buying: I never bought gold with frauded money. I never enabled or assisted anyone by buying gold with frauded money.

Selling: The only time I ever received frauded money and was paid out was when playerauctions would protect the transaction. I never stole money or dealt with anyone who did as far as I know. If I received frauded money over PayPal and delivered the gold, I most certainly lost the money via chargeback. There is no way to protect against a chargeback when selling virtual goods.

2. Buying/Selling gold to hackers.

Buying: I never bought gold from anyone who had acquired it through black hat activities (such as hacking runescape accounts with RATs, phishing, etc.) as far as I know. I never enabled or assisted anyone who did so. For the record, I never even heard of anyone who made bulk gold in such a manner (at least not in my time).

Selling: I never sold gold to anyone who had acquired the money through black hat activities as far as I know.

3. Buying/Selling gold to bug abusers.

Buying: I bought gold from people who had acquired gold through bug abuse in game (such as x-logging, duping, etc.). While I believe the activities my sellers did were should be against the rules of Sythe (although this is unclear and I will come back to this) and are against the rules of Runescape, I did not break any rules by buying from them. This gold is not stolen, I am not facilitating illegal activities by buying gold from these sellers. All gold is the property of Jagex by law anyways.

Selling: I sold a minimal amount of gold to people who may have used the gold to facilitate their in game bug abuse (such as x-logging, duping, etc.). What the buyers did with the gold is their business, I did not break any rules by selling to them. There is no rule on sythe that gold sellers cannot sell to people who will use the gold nefariously ingame.

4. Buying/Selling gold to item scammers in game.

Buying: I bought gold from people who had acquired gold through scamming in game (such as flower scamming, luring, etc.). While I believe the activities my sellers did were against the rules of Sythe and of Runescape, I did not break any rules by buying from them. Regardless of how they acquire the gold, their gold is not stolen using any legal definition, and I am not facilitating illegal activities by buying gold from these sellers. All gold is again the property of Jagex by law anyways.

Selling: I am fairly certain I did not sell gold to anyone who used their gold for in game scamming, although it is certainly possible as I completed many trades over the course of the year. Regardless, it is not against the rules to sell gold to someone who may use it with dubious intentions within runescape.

My overall point: I did buy gold from people who acquired it by breaking runescape rules (bug abusers, lurers, etc.), but I did not buy gold from people who broke real world laws (black hat hackers, fraudsters, etc.)

While I was trading gold, what I did was no against the rules. Using this thread as a reference http://www.sythe.org/feedback/1301086-duel-glitching-okay-item-scamming-not.html a discussion was started on whether the activities the sellers did themselves were against the rules—no conclusion was reached. Since what these sellers did is arguably not even against Sythe rules, and no rule was ever put in place against buying from people who had acquired their gold through dubious in game methods, I am asking for a reexamination of my initial ban and an unban. I never participated in any in game scam or bug abuse.

I have been a longstanding and loyal member of the community for almost three years. I would really appreciate if this ban dispute/high pardon was looked at seriously, as I sincerely believe that I did not break any rules. I apologize for causing so much confusion and angst with my poorly written initial post. My terminology was not correct as, again, I meant hackers and scammers to be people who would bug abuse within runescape or lure. I do not deal nor did I deal with people who broke the law and traded stolen gold or stolen money acquired through black hat activities.

At least half of the gold in the runescape market comes from people who break the rules of runescape, and almost every gold trader has a business relationship with someone who acquires gold in game using such methods. For example, some of my biggest sellers sold to many other buyers at the same time due to the sheer quantity of their gold. I do not believe that buying gold off of people who acquire it in game to be against the Sythe rules, as, again, I am breaking now laws, nor am I trading stolen goods, nor am I facilitating fraud.

Furthermore, in no way did I intend for my initial high pardon to come across as “blackmail.” I simply wanted to state that people sell gold acquired in such a manner everyday to bulk buyers. In fact, all of my biggest sellers moved on to other buyers once I stopped trading, and I assure you that the people buying from them now know how they get the gold in game, as these sellers do like to brag. I do not believe that buying gold from these people should be against the rules, and I would really like to ask for a rule change to make this allowed or a rule clarification as to what the rule is when this is responded to.

Again, these trades happened at least one year ago. I am no danger to the community. I never scammed anyone nor would I ever participate in a scam. I have been trusted with over $10,000 on multiple occasions. My integrity is solid. As far as I and every other gold buyer had thought prior to yesterday, it was allowed on Sythe to buy gold from people who had acquired their gold in runescape through bug abuse and other similar means.

I also suppose this could be moved to a ban dispute rather than a high pardon, as I did not know that I was doing anything wrong at the time and I would like to dispute the ban. I am admitting that I traded with these people, but again, all of the gold traders do, and I did not know it was against the rules (as it is not in the rules).

To prove that it was not against the rules at the time I traded (this is near the end of my time), here is this thread from R2Pleasant that asked for some clarity on whether such actions were allowed on sythe (duel-arena glitching): http://www.sythe.org/feedback/1301086-duel-glitching-okay-item-scamming-not.html

If duel-arena glitching is allowed on sythe, which it appears to be as it was never explicitly said in that thread by an administrator that it is not, then I really just don’t understand why buying from duel-arena glitchers would be a permanently bannable offense for me and I would really like to be unbanned for that reason.

Please use this post as my official ban dispute/high pardon. I quickly wrote my initial post that resulted in a permanent ban, and I did not say everything I wanted to say in my initial high pardon. Please regard this post as either a ban dispute, or if after reading it is deemed that I broke the rules (which I do not think I did), then add this to my high pardon.

I understand also that this also may be a bad time and I apologize. I am willing to wait a week for a detailed explanation (if my permanent ban is not rescinded). Thank you for your consideration and have a great day.

- Viou

 

[FireZ]

Fucking vetoed.