It's all kills over objectives
One game I told my Leona don't play too aggressive, cs is more important than trying to get kills at this point" it was the first 10mins, she was like "what the fuck, are you stupid" xD
This is why i hate being in bronze.
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One game I told my Leona don't play too aggressive, cs is more important than trying to get kills at this point" it was the first 10mins, she was like "what the fuck, are you stupid" xD
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Leona support is generally a hit or a miss. You would hope to snowball lane and get a decent lead, otherwise going in mid-lategame as an underfed leona generally results in a team-fight loss for leonas team. Well, that's what would happen if two well rounded teams were fighting one another.
Been finding building IE first quite good, although I have been building a vampiric scepter after pick axe to be quite useful for healing.
Just played a game which let's just say didn't go too well, got caught a few times in bot lane due to my support not warding very often, so of course when I was 1-4 my team were raging at me (and a few others, generally was a bad game for all except our top lane Garen). I kept faith in us, so did Garen, every one else wanted to surrender but we kept on playing to the best we could, they managed to take 2 inhibs and one turret in front of the nexus, with a bit more communication and teamwork we managed to win a few team fights and eventually won the game, they thrones so damn hard especially as their riven and ahri were so damn fed (we were also full AD).
Just goes to show not everyone in bronze is that bad I guess ^_^
Just played a game which let's just say didn't go too well, got caught a few times in bot lane due to my support not warding very often, so of course when I was 1-4 my team were raging at me (and a few others, generally was a bad game for all except our top lane Garen). I kept faith in us, so did Garen, every one else wanted to surrender but we kept on playing to the best we could, they managed to take 2 inhibs and one turret in front of the nexus, with a bit more communication and teamwork we managed to win a few team fights and eventually won the game, they thrones so damn hard especially as their riven and ahri were so damn fed (we were also full AD).
Just goes to show not everyone in bronze is that bad I guess ^_^
Leona only needs to get a good E R Q combo off to be effective. Leona baits are OP as hell. That being said, you're right: she belongs best in lane unless the can get a level or two ahead of the other support in order to be tanky enough to at least pull off two stuns in a fight.
I almost never build vamp scepter, since it really puts you behind in terms of being able to farm and do enough counter-harrass damage. Healing is fine, but if you play smart you can avoid taking serious hits. Furthermore, I've sometimes found that being half-health has its advantages. Their supports tend to be more retarded and go all-in when you are half health, and you can bait some easy kills.
In the laning phase focus damage as fast as possible. Attack speed and sustain are better suited after the laning phase has ended, around 20 minutes. You should hopefully have finished either an IE or a Trinity Force by then, depending on who you are and what you are rushing.
However, if you are far enough behind (15-20 CS) and you keep getting pushed out of lane, sustain can help. If you are good at positioning, though, this shouldn't happen. Practice more on your laning positions! There are a select few ADC's who build Bloodthirster first, but even for them build BF Sword before scepter if you can.
Finally, with ganks, try and stay near the bottom bush. I always focus my attention on controlling the bottom lane bushes. These give you a lot of valuable space, in case a gank happens, for you to run away. Plus they allow you to harrass from safety. The bottom lane bushes win games!
IarianI
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You make some valid points, kerokerocola, but you have to consider picks, item buys and what is actually behind them.
Lets take caitlynn for example. What does caitlynn do in lane?Shes a lane bully and an Hyperlategame Carry. What are her benefits? She has
1. Long rage AA and Poke
2. 2 Spells with aweosme AD scaling aswell as passive.
3. An Escape with built in slow, aswell as a trap wich stuns briefly.
Considering these things you want to bully lane and not sustain, you simply wont need it an it is not worth the gold/the style of caitlynn.
Preffered first item untill this point:IE. Why? Because your long range makes saves you from taking a lot of dammage aswell as an escape.
Untill now it was of a champion perspective of view why you should build what you build first.
A different Example:Vayne.
Preffered first item by almost any Vayne player :BOTRK.
Niche Firstitem:Bloodthirster.
WHy should you build what. Botrk for 1vs1 dueling, High Health Oponents, Kiting. The three points mentioned are the specialties of vayne even before BOTRK and this item just enhances it.
Bloodthirster: Squishy enemies, Snowballing lane and game, Better teamfighting.
BT is better for the mentioned points , since BT makes vayne scaling with PD, IE way better than BOTRK. Also you wouldnt need mroe then 3-4 shots to 100-0 Squishies with BT-PD opposed to BOTRK/PD.
Conclusion: Every build is situational, are you snowballing?Losing hard? WHo are your opponents and what are your goals for laning phase. All these things ultimately decide the outcome of your build.
Lets take caitlynn for example. What does caitlynn do in lane?Shes a lane bully and an Hyperlategame Carry. What are her benefits? She has
1. Long rage AA and Poke
2. 2 Spells with aweosme AD scaling aswell as passive.
3. An Escape with built in slow, aswell as a trap wich stuns briefly.
Considering these things you want to bully lane and not sustain, you simply wont need it an it is not worth the gold/the style of caitlynn.
Preffered first item untill this point:IE. Why? Because your long range makes saves you from taking a lot of dammage aswell as an escape.
Untill now it was of a champion perspective of view why you should build what you build first.
A different Example:Vayne.
Preffered first item by almost any Vayne player :BOTRK.
Niche Firstitem:Bloodthirster.
WHy should you build what. Botrk for 1vs1 dueling, High Health Oponents, Kiting. The three points mentioned are the specialties of vayne even before BOTRK and this item just enhances it.
Bloodthirster: Squishy enemies, Snowballing lane and game, Better teamfighting.
BT is better for the mentioned points , since BT makes vayne scaling with PD, IE way better than BOTRK. Also you wouldnt need mroe then 3-4 shots to 100-0 Squishies with BT-PD opposed to BOTRK/PD.
Conclusion: Every build is situational, are you snowballing?Losing hard? WHo are your opponents and what are your goals for laning phase. All these things ultimately decide the outcome of your build.
I do agree BORK is core, but I disagree that it should be your first item. If they have a tanky mid like Cho or a tanky support like Taric, BORK might do you well... but otherwise, her AA + Q combo is so strong that I almost always rush BF sword as my first item. Unless something goes really wrong, I almost always have enough gold for a BF sword.
Also, the "high HP" champions vayne faces usually end up a part of the equation mid-game, not in the lane. Aside from being able to land some attacks on their jungler, BORK's passive won't proc any extra damage than a straight up BF sword will. Again, this is another reason to wait for BORk for mid-game.
Then, since BORK is core, I might build a couple of longswords (even before scepter). It takes 2 longswords for a BORK, which is 20 attack power you can prioritize before you start building the ASP or the lifesteal. Plus the longsword it takes to build a Bloodthirster, and you can prioritize 30 total damage before you can prioritize the general utility stats.
In short, I really try to maximize my autoattack power by 20 minutes. ASP and lifesteal are better suited for autoattacks.
Again, damage helps with last hitting, returning trades, and obviously with DPS. Vayne is so mobile that you don't really end up harrassed as much as people tend to think.
By the way, I don't think of Cait as a "hyper-carry." If anything, she is one of the least-hyper carries lategame. She has no steriod, her lategame attack speed was nerfed in like July, and her Q and R actually take away from her DPS lategame. On the other hand, the real "hyper-carries" include Vayne, Tristana, Kog, and Jinx.
Vayne: Steriod from her ult that adds DPS without wasting time in between attacks.
Kog: Steroid from his W that adds a ton of range, steroid that also adds % health damage
Jinx: Steroid from her chaingun, range from her rocket. Her ult doesn't sacrifice time because it is an instant cast.
Trist: Steroid from her attack range and speed. Ult is also isntant-cast.
Of course, there are many others. Corki has a lot of burst for a carry, especially lategame. Twitch's range increase is OP. There are a lot of others, but I think "hypercarry" belongs to the ADC's who have a specific steroid that really increases their lategame damage per second.
IarianI
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cait actually turns into a hypercarry because she ahs 2 special traits no other carry possesses
She has the longest constant AA range.
Her passive with double AS items.
Her range and E make her unkillable lategame because you cant reach her before dying, not even a vayne if she has oracles. Double PD IE BT LW is unstoppable on her than on any other carry, you just get melted waay too hard to do anything
You have to observe stats with how they scale. Her passive is IMMENSE and her range aswell
Kog is a good carry because he has huge range lategame , his W melt is AP dmg wich wont do much vs tank with 150 mr.
I think the only hypercarries are Vayne, cait, and Jinx because they have specific abilities that scale EXTREMELY HARD.
I can see how Caitlin is a deadly carry because she has a high range, but her passive only scales by a 8% increase in damage, overall. Caitlyn's strengths lie where you mentioned: she can kite extremely well, and she has a Press-E-to-Avoid-a-Gank button, which most carries don't have. We do agree that she's strong, but I don't think we agree on what a hyper carry is. Caitlyn has the niche of being very strong and safe in lane, and still having a decent kit for damage and safety in lategame teamfights. I just don't think her damage is worthy of hyper-carry status.
IMO, a "hyper carry" is one that has an ability that gives the carry pure, raw damage towards the end-game. Vayne has her ult steroid coupled with her Silver Bolts passive procs; Jinx has absurd range/splash damage or absurd attack speed; trist has absurd range and speed. Essentially, the steroid has to be specific to how well it applies in a few second window during a teamfight.
Compare Caitlyn's "steroid" of 8% boost in damage with Vayne's +55 AD ult, which lategame is usually an increase of 250 to 300 (or about 17%), not to mention her insane damage scaling on her W which can be 100-200 damage per third attack lategame.
Jinx has double steroids on the same attack, either 100% attackspeed or 700+ range and AOE splash. Both are disgustingly strong. This means you can build Jinx to be a pure damage beast with 350+ damage and still get 1.8+ ASP endgame, or you can build her traditional carry where she has more range than Caitlyn and splash damage as well.
Kog is also, but you're right about MR to cancel his damage. That's why he lost popularity, but I still consider his steroids to be "hyper carry" tier. Hopefully a good Kog'Maw team can get a Wit's End or an Abyssal Scepter there in the mix of a fight to complement his damage.
I'm not sure why you didn't mention Tristana. She has everything Caitlin offers but more, in terms of pure damage. Her 90% attack speed steroid is absurd, and generally an ADC can only constant fire as long as your supports' CCs last... so 7 seconds is more than enough. Plus, by level 11 she has more range than Caitlyn, a healing debuff (which is WAY underrated lategame), and the strongest leap of any ADC in the business. Think about her 90% attack speed again, for a second... That's like a PD and a Shiv (minus the crits) without having to spend 5k.
I forgot Draven earlier, whose Q gives an 85% damage boost and Blood Rush gives 40% ASP. He's definitely got a high skill cap to keep these steroids alive, but I think a good Draven has more raw damage than any other ADC.
Finally, Twitch is underrated in terms of being a hyper carry. If you time his stealth right, you can play his ult (+36 damage, piercing shots, and a total range of 200 more than Caitlyn) and pair it with the 70% attack speed boost from his stealth, and he's immensely scary.
And, perhaps the honorable mention is Corki, whose passive is 10% true damage per autoattack. This is basically +25 damage per attack lategame that can't be cancelled by armor. Since tanks can usually cancel damage by 50%, this is actually a 20% steroid.
IMO, a "hyper carry" is one that has an ability that gives the carry pure, raw damage towards the end-game. Vayne has her ult steroid coupled with her Silver Bolts passive procs; Jinx has absurd range/splash damage or absurd attack speed; trist has absurd range and speed. Essentially, the steroid has to be specific to how well it applies in a few second window during a teamfight.
Compare Caitlyn's "steroid" of 8% boost in damage with Vayne's +55 AD ult, which lategame is usually an increase of 250 to 300 (or about 17%), not to mention her insane damage scaling on her W which can be 100-200 damage per third attack lategame.
Jinx has double steroids on the same attack, either 100% attackspeed or 700+ range and AOE splash. Both are disgustingly strong. This means you can build Jinx to be a pure damage beast with 350+ damage and still get 1.8+ ASP endgame, or you can build her traditional carry where she has more range than Caitlyn and splash damage as well.
Kog is also, but you're right about MR to cancel his damage. That's why he lost popularity, but I still consider his steroids to be "hyper carry" tier. Hopefully a good Kog'Maw team can get a Wit's End or an Abyssal Scepter there in the mix of a fight to complement his damage.
I'm not sure why you didn't mention Tristana. She has everything Caitlin offers but more, in terms of pure damage. Her 90% attack speed steroid is absurd, and generally an ADC can only constant fire as long as your supports' CCs last... so 7 seconds is more than enough. Plus, by level 11 she has more range than Caitlyn, a healing debuff (which is WAY underrated lategame), and the strongest leap of any ADC in the business. Think about her 90% attack speed again, for a second... That's like a PD and a Shiv (minus the crits) without having to spend 5k.
I forgot Draven earlier, whose Q gives an 85% damage boost and Blood Rush gives 40% ASP. He's definitely got a high skill cap to keep these steroids alive, but I think a good Draven has more raw damage than any other ADC.
Finally, Twitch is underrated in terms of being a hyper carry. If you time his stealth right, you can play his ult (+36 damage, piercing shots, and a total range of 200 more than Caitlyn) and pair it with the 70% attack speed boost from his stealth, and he's immensely scary.
And, perhaps the honorable mention is Corki, whose passive is 10% true damage per autoattack. This is basically +25 damage per attack lategame that can't be cancelled by armor. Since tanks can usually cancel damage by 50%, this is actually a 20% steroid.
Don't elo boost, do it yourself, if you can't climb you deserve to be there imo.
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