Swapping FC Liability

You are polarizing the situation. I am not saying that I shouldn't be responsible, I am saying there should be some limit on that responsibility. I have an easy solution that covers the situation and certainly should keep everybody happy.

I make a policy where I will refund $2,500 USD worth of damages on a set of incidents, unless I personally am conducting the deal and this has been verified. A set of incidents = a hacking / rogue worker / etc. We monitor our businesses closely and these situations are handled very quickly.

Example: My Sythe account is hacked. I will repay up to $2,500 USD total for the victims of scams. The amount that I will repay is also publicly displayed so that everybody knows that is the maximum I will pay out.

Got a problem with that amount? Cool story, it's a fucking Runescape trade. If you don't know me personally, do $2,500 USD worth, get paid and repeat. The amount of legitimate trades over $2,500 USD are rare. Increments are your friend.

Know me well? Confirm my identity and verify it's me you're speaking with, and there's no problem. I obviously stand behind anything I do personally.

Tell me Delta, what do you have to say about fake trades? Did you read the report on Arcus from Powerbot? You realize he paid $10,000 USD to someone over this exact bullshit situation? But you feel nothing is wrong?

LOL no way in a million years could you open a successful swap fc will. If your already trying to figure out ways to fuck people over when they get scammed.... If you open a swap fc and endorse it, advertise it and essentially own or co own it. Then yes you fucking idiot your responsible. How the fuck could you expect to lure people to your swap fc with your reputation and company and not expect to be responsible if something happened? Just for shit n giggles btw i know who owns that rsn as well. You obviously know how to run a business successfully. You obviously understand the liability and thats why your setting this up now. You want zero responsibility but 100% of the profits, Doesnt work that way bro... Its obvious the issues your facing. You want to put zero effort into the clan, You just want to use your position and website to advertise it. You want to collect gold at the end of the day for as little work as possible. Your going to struggle to get ranks who will put 1-4 bil down as buy in because thats how much it takes. Itl never work guarantee'd, you wont put the effort or time into to it to make it work. Your website and sythe would honestly be the downfall. You'd keep asking yourself why am i investing so much time into something thats not gonna be profitable for 2-4 months. It most likely would die and a few people would end up getting scammed a few 100m here n there. If you cant put 100% into opening a staking fc or Swap fc theyl fall plain n simple. Ive watched 100's come n go. Remember Sythe Dyce anyone?

 

LOL no way in a million years could you open a successful swap fc will. If your already trying to figure out ways to fuck people over when they get scammed.... If you open a swap fc and endorse it, advertise it and essentially own or co own it. Then yes you fucking idiot your responsible. How the fuck could you expect to lure people to your swap fc with your reputation and company and not expect to be responsible if something happened? Just for shit n giggles btw i know who owns that rsn as well. You obviously know how to run a business successfully. You obviously understand the liability and thats why your setting this up now. You want zero responsibility but 100% of the profits, Doesnt work that way bro... Its obvious the issues your facing. You want to put zero effort into the clan, You just want to use your position and website to advertise it. You want to collect gold at the end of the day for as little work as possible. Your going to struggle to get ranks who will put 1-4 bil down as buy in because thats how much it takes. Itl never work guarantee'd, you wont put the effort or time into to it to make it work. Your website and sythe would honestly be the downfall. You'd keep asking yourself why am i investing so much time into something thats not gonna be profitable for 2-4 months. It most likely would die and a few people would end up getting scammed a few 100m here n there. If you cant put 100% into opening a staking fc or Swap fc theyl fall plain n simple. Ive watched 100's come n go. Remember Sythe Dyce anyone?

Please link me to where I quoted 0% liability. You guys keep arguing as if I said I want 0 liability. I want a LIMIT of liability, which is publicly visible. I raised an example of $2,500 USD. EVERY FC has a limited liability on hosts. They all have a max on their allowable trades.

Without a limit on liability, someone could simply create a fake trade for 100 Billion Gold (or 10x 10 Billion), and I'd be on the hook. Because they are using my business as leverage, I am forced to payout.

I never asked for your opinion on whether my FC would work or not. If I listened to every self-righteous asshole on whether my business would fail / succeed, I wouldn't be here right now. Let's not act like swapping FC's are rocket science either.

 

if it was a fake trade why did he pay the guy?

Because there's absolutely no way to distinguish a real trade from a fake trade, if done correctly. Arcus was forced to pay Count Vidal within a short period of time, or he would have been permanently banned from Powerbot. He had no choice. His business on Powerbot was worth more than the amount being extorted from him, so he paid it.

You can try to weasel your way out of it as much as you want, while still trying to turn a profit, regardless it's your company, your employees, if i fuck up a paintjob on a new car, the company i work for pays for it, yes my employer will most likely charge be for it afterwards, but it was done at his shop, with his client.

Companies can buy insurance to protect against liability. On Sythe, there is no way to do this. If companies had no way to normalize/control their liability, many businesses simply could not exist.

 

Please link me to where I quoted 0% liability. You guys keep arguing as if I said I want 0 liability. I want a LIMIT of liability, which is publicly visible. I raised an example of $2,500 USD. EVERY FC has a limited liability on hosts. They all have a max on their allowable trades.

Without a limit on liability, someone could simply create a fake trade for 100 Billion Gold (or 10x 10 Billion), and I'd be on the hook. Because they are using my business as leverage, I am forced to payout.

I never asked for your opinion on whether my FC would work or not. If I listened to every self-righteous asshole on whether my business would fail / succeed, I wouldn't be here right now. Let's not act like swapping FC's are rocket science either.

My apologies i didnt read all the messages. I actually took the time and read over it. I understand were your coming from with fake trades and liability. Doesnt matter in my opinion your still going to have to be responsible, Especially if you promote the clan/fc. The fc will be a extension of your companies and sythe account pretty much. Just because there's a shit ton of risk doesnt keep you from buying or selling gold does it? The same risks apply and can easily be manipulated as you've stated about arcus. If you dont want the risk then dont open shop. Your Name, your website advertising it, your sythe account advertising it and, your collecting profits for it at the end of the day. All leads to 1 outcome your responsibility. How can you only expect to be partially liable? You have to create a trade and rank system. Have a limit and personally run it yourself.

 

So let me raise another scenario.

Someone else creates the Friends Chat. I am simply a member of the clan, but he actually owns and runs it. I endorse and advertise the clan. By Sythe logic I am now his employee, and I am no longer liable. Correct?

 

[Delta Squad]

So let me raise another scenario.

Someone else creates the Friends Chat. I am simply a member of the clan, but he actually owns and runs it. I endorse and advertise the clan. By Sythe logic I am now his employee, and I am no longer liable. Correct?

still trying to weasel m8....

 

Just asking a hypothetical question, I am not trying to weasel anything. Earlier I tried to limit my liability to $2,500 USD and you guys say that is still not possible. I think you're all absolutely nuts, so I am seeing what you think of this scenario. If you make the rules in a way which makes it impossible for people to run a business, this is what will happen.

 

[Emperor Nero]

Ok, but in real life, if someone from Wal-Mart goes and robs a bank, Wal-Mart is not responsible. On Sythe, once you partner with someone, Sythe essentially says OK, now you're responsible for whatever that person does.

I'm not asking for 0 liability, I'm asking for some sort of fair limit which is communicated to people. For example, if I opened a LoL Boosting service with someone, and then they somehow managed to scam somebody on Sythe $20,000 USD, should I be responsible to pay for that shit? I'd tell you that you're nuts.

Before you say this would never happen, let me refer to a case on Powerbot. Arcus was hacked awhile back, and GOT RAPED by "Count Vidal" from Powerbot. Count Vidal created a completely fake scam with the assistance of the hacker. They made a fake trade of over $10,000 USD (YES $10,000 USD)! And Arcus had to pay the fucker the whole amount back. This system is absolutely fucked up because there is no way to distinguish a real trade from a fake trade.

LINK: https://www.powerbot.org/community/topic/784763-huge-scam-report-arcus-scams-10000-usd/page-2

Your analogy is pretty bad. As funbox said that gut wasn't using Walmart reputation to commit the crime. Then we get into scope of employment. If they're acting as your agent and the trade is going to make money from it then it is your responsibility. If the Walmart guy goes and robs a bank he isn't in the scope of Walmart employ. If a guy is selling gold for you and scams he is in your employ, or if you put your name on an fc and say this is part of my business empire and someone acting under that authority and banner goes into scam that is in your scope of employment.

I'm on my phone at the moment but I'll add more when I get home.

 

[Delta Squad]

Just asking a hypothetical question, I am not trying to weasel anything. Earlier I tried to limit my liability to $2,500 USD and you guys say that is still not possible. I think you're all absolutely nuts, so I am seeing what you think of this scenario. If you make the rules in a way which makes it impossible for people to run a business, this is what will happen.

it's not impossible, just don't hire scammers, and don't try to get every advantage of people who get fucked by your employees, its really not that hard to grasp.

 

[Emperor Nero]

Why would there be an arbitrary $2,500 liability limit? Dealing with the amount of money you do it'd be easy for one of your employees to take double that. That doesn't make any sense. Why would liability be limited if they're working in your direct employ? If they go to the side and say scam $1,000 in Fifa Coins and it is obvious that you don't deal in Fifa Coins and they were trading for their own profit then you aren't responsible, but if they're using your reputation/contacts/vouches/name to scam then that is your responsibility.

 

[Sebas613]

To the people above:

I'm kind of getting the idea as if you're talking about website employees. There R2Pleasent is 100% liable, and he knows it. That is why he is so strict in hiring his on-site employees (I assume he is).

A swapping fc should be handled like any hosting FC in the past. Dice clans have advertised, and no owner has ever paid out a scam report over a hosts limit when a bettor went over a limit. When it is quite clear in the FC's and in general knowledge of this type of business that ranks have limits, no refunds over the limits should be issued.

I know people DO give over limits (I once had to refuse a red phat bet, because that was 1,4b over my limit. Kind of hated Corowns a little bit for not giving me half his commission on that one ) but that happens incredibly rarely, and usually only by a little bit.

I have seen less than a handful cases where a host went over his limit and accepted a bet, to scam the other side. With over a year of hosting experience in a large dicing clan. So, This will not happen often anyway.

 

[DRSX]

*Just editted a few miniscule more details in since your quote*

I was the third rank to join SM when the forums became public in march 2010, and one of the first hosts as well. I used to host as a silver star at first, but when my main got banned for 12b (All I had) due to a fucked up name transfer, I paid my monthly fees from my deposit. A few days later the deposits were all frozen, and buy-ins were introduced, which ment I was stuck at a 225m max (2 banana's) unless I wanted to pay the multi-billion buyin price

I rose up to Co-Rank manager (of the most active group) / Trainee Manager (of the most awesome trainees) / Mentor / Host / Highly Trusted. After I got banned for my 12b, I quit the merching side of the clan and went on to purely host/RWT. I recently returned after a near 2 year hiatus, not in any official rank capacity though. SM's dicing section is currently ran by Adrijana + 2-3 dicing managers in total, and merching had no fun in it for me ever since my main was banned.



Good point. Tiggy18, who was admin of the in-game clan of Smokin Mils, got banned for RWTing by jagex because he owned the clan, even though he did not rwt at all, or so rarely that they never would've caught him.

I dont remember Tiggy18 ever being the owner of SM, at what point was this?

 

[Sebas613]

I dont remember Tiggy18 ever being the owner of SM, at what point was this?

Owner of the in-game clan (500 max join user), not site owner/fc owner. He is an admin now though.

 

[Astrola]

Simple:
1.Make ranks pay insurance above their maximum trade limit per trade.
2.Set rules so that, if a rank scams above their trade limit then the person who was scammed will only receive an amount equivalent to that ranks trade limit.
For example, If your an 100M Trade limit rank and you scam 200M then you get reported the person who got scammed will only receive 100M.
3. Get trusted ranks that you wont think will scam.
Also if the clan is under your name you should be fully in charge and know whats going on at all times. As well I think your clan name will get banned quickly but thats besides the point.
Hope this post helped

 

[nodnarbusn]

Promoting and profiting off of something while shirking responsibility entirely is bullshit cut and dry.

You are a real class act R2P.

 

[Xier0]

R2 is on the same page as me, and in reality, the rule already exists in this way, it just needs some technical infrastructure specific to Sythe.org to make businesses on here more effective.

For example, let's say R2P gives Str8 Dank a $250 maximum trade limit, customers are made aware of that limit, and R2P is responsible for trades over $250 himself, but Str8 Dank can do trades <$250 on R2P's behalf

If someone I recognized as my worker scammed a customer $250, I would be expected to pay it, if the customer was informed by the business that the worker could safely trade less than $250.

If this worker with a $250 allowance was accidentally sent $2,500 in BTC by a customer instead of $250, I should not be required to pay for his scam as the owner of the business, since it was outside of the trade range

Promoting and profiting off of something while shirking responsibility entirely is bullshit cut and dry.

You are a real class act R2P.

I understand your cynicism here, but in this case, it really is about avoiding incredibly unnecessary liability, since the current Sythe rules don't specify what happens when a worker scams an amount that even the business owner would not have scammed.

 

R2 is on the same page as me, and in reality, the rule already exists in this way, it just needs some technical infrastructure specific to Sythe.org to make businesses on here more effective.

For example, let's say R2P gives Str8 Dank a $250 maximum trade limit, customers are made aware of that limit, and R2P is responsible for trades over $250 himself, but Str8 Dank can do trades <$250 on R2P's behalf

If someone I recognized as my worker scammed a customer $250, I would be expected to pay it, if the customer was informed by the business that the worker could safely trade less than $250.

If this worker with a $250 allowance was accidentally sent $2,500 in BTC by a customer instead of $250, I should not be required to pay for his scam as the owner of the business, since it was outside of the trade range



I understand your cynicism here, but in this case, it really is about avoiding incredibly unnecessary liability, since the current Sythe rules don't specify what happens when a worker scams an amount that even the business owner would not have scammed.

In this instance would you refund them $250 or not at all?

 

[Sanctuary]

In this instance would you refund them $250 or not at all?

He'd refund them $250. They're looking for limited liability. If by saying "Host X can only trade up to $250, don't trade him more than $250" and someone ignores that and trades $500 and gets scammed, they would still only be liable for the $250 because of the previous statement.

Which I agree with.

 

[l0llyp0pst3r]

Simply putting it, u should be responsible to refund any amount up to the max of the rank's limit and that's what part of the rank money is for anyway, is for insurance in the scenario where the rank scams. If a user gets scammed for more than the rank's max then u should only be liable up to his max cuz its the user's fault for trusting him with more. My opinion

 

He'd refund them $250. They're looking for limited liability. If by saying "Host X can only trade up to $250, don't trade him more than $250" and someone ignores that and trades $500 and gets scammed, they would still only be liable for the $250 because of the previous statement.

Which I agree with.

Yeah guessed it but Xiero didn't specify so I was just double checking.

I don't think this is unreasonable, support.