Socialized medicine

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[alexp5]

Ya in my opionion Obama is a freaking idiot, a better soulution would just to put more funds into medicade for the people who cant afford healthcare, not socialize it. Most people in countries that have socialized medicine statistically dont even like it.


Also we did a section in my contemporary issues class about healthcare. One canadian women we read about had to wait years for treatment for cancer and ended up addicted to oxycottin. then after treatment she had to wait years for treatment for addiction.

 

[K-3-V-1-N]

Yeah, I learned alot by listening to FreedomainRadio, especially about Socialized Medicine. There just isn't any incentive for efficiency or keeping people healthy. The money comes from keeping people being healthy enough to live but sick enough to keep bringing in the cash.

 

[dansmithxxx]

Ya in my opionion Obama is a freaking idiot, a better soulution would just to put more funds into medicade for the people who cant afford healthcare, not socialize it. Most people in countries that have socialized medicine statistically dont even like it.

It's not that he's an idiot he's going through alote of stress as its his first time in the office,cut him some slack

and to the point we should more funds into medicade as i agree with you because some people obviously can't afford it since the economy overall and the losing of jobs.

 

[alexp5]

It's not that he's an idiot he's going through alote of stress as its his first time in the office,cut him some slack

and to the point we should more funds into medicade as i agree with you because some people obviously can't afford it since the economy overall and the losing of jobs.

well yeah, its not liek he is stupid, he is a pretty intelligent and charismatic person, he just spends too much....

 

[dansmithxxx]

well yeah, its not liek he is stupid, he is a pretty intelligent and charismatic person, he just spends too much....

Yeah well after how bad Bush left the economy because of his thirst for oil,we need most of it,its like Bush took a shit in the toilet,and left it there for Obama to clean.

 

[alexp5]

Are you justifying the poor leadership of a nation with work-related stress?



If you're insinuating that his recovery package spends too much... it takes money to alleviate the effects of depression and to create jobs. Even when we build a fence around an unused lake, we've just created jobs and stimulated the economy.

well we dont need to spend monney to fix our economy, we had a recession in the early 80's and it fixed itself, you cant solve a problem by throwing monney at it. also, look at how good his stimlus package has worked

 

[DropKick Murphys]

it takes money to alleviate the effects of depression and to create jobs.

Can you elaborate.

Even when we build a fence around an unused lake, we've just created jobs and stimulated the economy.

Ever heard of the broken window fallacy? You really should read some economics text, as this is very basic stuff.

You are seeing only the immediate results of the spending money on the fence. You see all these workers who get paid. What you are missing is the unseen costs. That money came from taxpayers who now have that much less money to spend on other things.

If there's anything we've learned from the past, it's that war helps the economy. (War got the United States out of the Great Depression.)

You said this a week ago and I replied:

"Nothing gets rid of certain things and encourages the merchants of death like a nice slaughter of an entire generation, eh?

Seriously though, why would the destruction of wealth (which is what war is) be beneficial to the general welfare of the people? You're literally stealing money from citizens, giving it to manufacturers of bombs, and then dropping the bombs overseas. It boggles my mind as to how that could possibly be a good thing.
You are only seeing the immediate benefits to one group of people, and overlooking the rest of the effects on all groups."

You still haven't responded.

 

[DropKick Murphys]

It immediately improves the economy when the government creates jobs with (sometimes) pointless ventures.

A pointless venture does not improve the economy. It is wasteful, it is destroying capital.

...but the money has already been taken from them, so the best thing that could happen is for the government to put it back into the economy.

Look I'm not arguing whether taxes are moral or useful or whatever. But taking money from people and spending it on make work projects is stupid.
I suppose you're right that if the government has money they might as well spend it on stuff (or at least return it) but they shouldn't take more for similar stuff.

It does in fact improve the manufacturing sector of the economy.

Only at the expense of other industries.

 

[r 0w12]

If healthcare was nationalized in America it would just hurt the middle class. The money would have to come from somewhere, most likely the owners of small companies and mom and pop shops who don't already have healthcare for their employs. To pay for healthcare taxes the employer will lower the wages of their employes so the employes are paying for it themselves. The government is going to be forcing people to have healthcare if this bill passes. Alongside this now people have less money to spend due to cut in wages and higher taxes so people spend less money further hurting the economy. Any programs or companies that are run by the government always fail. The person who would be put in charge as no motive to make it successful unlike someone who started a private medical insurance company where they can make money.

 

Yikes. That video helps show why the death rates in Canada are higher than in the United States. For instance the death rate of cancer patients is 13% higher there.

It's going to turn into a disaster in the US. No one is going to want to be a doctor with the possible profit margins this low. Contact your local representatives by phone everyone! You'd be surprised how much this could sway Moderate Democrats voting choices.

 

[dansmithxxx]

Are you justifying the poor leadership of a nation with work-related stress?



If you're insinuating that his recovery package spends too much... it takes money to alleviate the effects of depression and to create jobs. Even when we build a fence around an unused lake, we've just created jobs and stimulated the economy.



That is a foolish, uneducated statement. The economic crisis was caused largely during Bill Clinton's presidency.

If there's anything we've learned from the past, it's that war helps the economy. (War got the United States out of the Great Depression.)

Yes even though war helps,we didn't need to invade Irac is what im saying,we all know he wanted oil and its the reason he invaded,if we would've fucked off Irac,we wouldn't be where we were.

 

[FreedomFight]

Regarding the video, Fox News is notorious for being a load of shit. Even the reputable American media sources have been known to have an agenda when criticizing the Canadian health system. And it's really much of a joke -- shit criticizing shit.

I recently visited Taiwan, which has one of the best health care systems in the world. It's largely socialized; the service is quick, and even if you aren't a citizen, you can expect the overall price to be much less than even the co-pay or medicinal costs here.

http://www.examiner.com/x-6665-Libe...eform-Series-The-health-care-system-of-Taiwan

You are seeing only the immediate results of the spending money on the fence. You see all these workers who get paid. What you are missing is the unseen costs.

Well, it's also affecting what you don't see. I wasn't a fan of the bail-outs either, but if you do some research in the possible "domino-effect" that could've ensued, I'd consider the theory quite feasible.

Alternatively, it's not really proven that any sort of monetary stimulation would help fix the economy at all. It seems like what your asking him to do is to sit around and do nothing;unfortunately, that's not an option he can take. After all, he doesn't want to be the next Herbert Hoover.

 

[Datsyuk4242]

. After all, he doesn't want to be the next Herbert Hoover.

Third State Of Union Address:

"Many undertakings have been organized and forwarded during the past year to meet the new and changing emergencies which have constantly confronted us . . . to cushion the violence of liquidation in industry and commerce, thus giving time for orderly readjustment of costs, inventories, and credits without panic and widespread bankruptcies."

"emergencies of unemployment have been met by action in many directions. The appropriations for the continued speeding up of the great Federal construction program have provided direct and indirect aid to employment upon a large scale. By organized unity of action, the States and municipalities have also maintained large programs of public improvement. Many industries have been prevailed upon to anticipate and intensify construction. Industrial concerns and other employers have been organized to spread available work amongst all their employees, instead of discharging a portion of them. A large majority have maintained wages at as high levels as the safe conduct of their business would permit"





What about the Smoot-Hawley tariff that was passed when he was in office?

What about the founding of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation during his term?

What about the Revenue Act of 1932?

What about the enormous increase in Federal spending from 1930 to 1932?

That doesn't look like a do nothing mentality to me...

 

[FreedomFight]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing Taiwan doesn't have as many illegal immigrants as the United States.

Regulation is extremely tight for immigration (especially from the Phillipenes). After all, they really don't shudder from racial profiling .

...Herbert Hoover was a good president. FDR largely continued Hoover's programs.

Facepalm all you want, but he was probably the least popular president in American history. He ended the Republican dynasty after his beliefs that the depression would heal itself.

 

[FreedomFight]

Perhaps illegal immigration in the US is a factor that separates us from Taiwan.

Sort of, but not really. For the large part Taiwan's government decided to rip off the doctors; here, the doctors' unions would be a much more formidable force.

He instituted the programs that FDR mimicked in hopes of solving the same problems. They just needed time.

Herboot Hoover was humanitarian, but not well-versed in economics. His took the Republican stance of letting the economy heal itself. And for that, he was extremely unpopular.

Towards the end of his term, his programs were not nearly on the same magnitude as FDR's New Deal policies, which had much more immediate results.

 

[DropKick Murphys]

Or it encourages the further use of capital and promotes the creation of jobs..

Again, so it may, but only at the expense of what could have been.

Examples?

It's fairly obvious isn't it? Government takes money from citizens. Government spends it on manufacturing shit. Manufacturing industry gains. Citizens have less money now to spend on T-Shirts, or movies, or other things, so those industries suffer as a result.

 

[darth rave]

Obama putting $2T into production was not a smart choice. I believe it's somewhere around $800B is in circulation at any given time. With Obama pouring $2T into the economy hoping it will improve it will only create inflation. People's wages will go up slightly but products will go up higher. Same thing happened to Germany back in WWI. They kept adding money into circulation and it started inflation which led to hyper inflation. Eventually the entire economy crashed and they had to put a new system in place so they adopted the Reichsmark as their new currency, which led to the adoption of the Euro today.

 

[DropKick Murphys]

If you they already have $5m to begin with, and they put $4m into the economy, that's $4m more than we had originally.

No it isn't, because that $4m came from the taxpayers

If I interpreted what you said correctly, the Germans printed new money, which is not what's happening in America; the money is being relocated.

The gov isn't printing money? That's news to me.

 

[ilikepie1]

Yikes. That video helps show why the death rates in Canada are higher than in the United States. For instance the death rate of cancer patients is 13% higher there.

It's going to turn into a disaster in the US. No one is going to want to be a doctor with the possible profit margins this low. Contact your local representatives by phone everyone! You'd be surprised how much this could sway Moderate Democrats voting choices.

http://healthcare-economist.com/2007/10/02/health-care-system-grudge-match-canada-vs-us/

Basic Statistics

U.S. Canada
Life Expectancy (Male) 74.8 77.4
Life Expectancy (Female) 80.1 82.4
Infant Mortality/1000 live births 6.8 5.3
Obesity Rate (Male) 31.1 17.0
Obesity Rate (Female) 32.2 19.0
HC spending as % of GDP (2005) 16.0% 10.4%

Conclusion

American are less healthy than Canadians. What this paper finds, however, is that this is mainly due to the fact that the U.S. has a higher incidence of disease. It turns out that Americans may have slightly higher access to treatment than Canadians. The paper is not the most smoothly written piece I have read, but the data is revealing. The small-ish sample size of the JCUSH mean that the results should not be taken as definative. Since the data set uses the same survey for both countries, however, the authors present convincing evidence that this cross-country comparison is of a high quality.

There is more to this article, but you can see the results clearly. Americans are, on average, much unhealthier than Canadians. Thus the "Canadian system is sub-par" argument. I love how all of you cite sources that prove our healthcare is inferior to the US's, without actually seeing it first-hand, so I'll provide an example. When I went to a hospital emergency room, they made me see a specialist (within 5-10 mins of arriving) that overlooked my symptoms. The patients with severe symptoms get immediate attention over the ones with mild symptoms. I had to wait in the waiting room for around 30-45 minutes until I saw a doctor (and this waiting room was packed). The doctor's asked me some questions, looked at my symptoms again, and decided that over-night stay was unnecessary. They prescribed some medicine, and I was on my way home. You want to know the best part? The doctors decided to give me the best medical attention because I was ill, and not whether my insurance would pay for it or not.

If healthcare was nationalized in America it would just hurt the middle class. The money would have to come from somewhere, most likely the owners of small companies and mom and pop shops who don't already have healthcare for their employs. To pay for healthcare taxes the employer will lower the wages of their employes so the employes are paying for it themselves. The government is going to be forcing people to have healthcare if this bill passes. Alongside this now people have less money to spend due to cut in wages and higher taxes so people spend less money further hurting the economy. Any programs or companies that are run by the government always fail. The person who would be put in charge as no motive to make it successful unlike someone who started a private medical insurance company where they can make money.

My Uncle, who lives in Toronto, would be considered middle class in today's society. He owns a small hardware store and he pays his employees their full quote. He also pays taxes. Yet he is able to afford a comfortable living, as well as an annual vacation to Europe. He also doesn't have to worry about going broke over medical expenses, thus being able to afford a vacation to Europe every year.
My doctor is not middle class. Because of his medical experience, he owns several expensive cars and a nice house. He treats his patients with the best care possible, all on government expense. Because he doesn't have to worry about whether or not the patient can afford treatment, he is able to focus on
helping people because they need it.
I can go on and on with these first-hand experiences I had with the doctors and citizens in Canada, but I think I gave enough evidence on my part.

So no, I don't think America would end up in shambles by socializing medicine.